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Offline RidesWithYah  
#51 Posted : Friday, August 21, 2009 4:32:09 PM(UTC)
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TOM, Chapters 4 & 10 both state that Trumpets will fall on a "natural" Sabbath in 2009, 2020, 2023, and 2026.
I'm looking for the complete Roman dates -- I know 2009 is September 19th (starts evening of the 18th).
Can anyone provide the others?

Many Thanks,
RidesWithYah.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#52 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:59:48 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the link -- I don't remember seeing those tables the first time I read YY.
Either my age is showing, or they were added more recently?

Anyway...

The Tables show for Trumpets:
Year Astronomical Observational
2009 Sat Sep 19 Sun Sep 20
2020 Thu Sep 17 Fri Sep 18
2023 Fri Sep 15 Sat Sep 16
2026 Fri Sep 11 Sat Sep 12

This doesn't seem to fit with the TOM claim of "natural" Sabbaths in 2009, 2020, 2023, and 2026.
Am I reading this wrong?



Offline James  
#53 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:57:55 AM(UTC)
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The chapter with those tables is a very recent addition, based on research that Yowel and Yada did, I believe. It was an attempt to precisely date the miqra. Ken's observation in TOM was based on looking forward on our calendars to when they occur, and was done a few years prior to this research. So by our calendars Ken is right in stating that these will fall on a natural Sabbath, but our calendars might be a bit flawed. The dates shown in the table you referenced are based upon setting them in accordance with the exacting new moon as the start of the month, and then counting out the number of days into the month that the miqra will start.

As Yada and Yowel have pointed out on the show a few times, pin pointing the exact day of the festivals is not the important part, understanding their meaning is what is important. There are many things that can throw off ones calculations, so trying to exactly nail the day down is near impossible. I believe that the table provided in YY is as good attempt as can be done.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline kp  
#54 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:10:51 AM(UTC)
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Well stated, James. Thanks for clarifying the discrepancies between Yow'el's and Yada's latest astronomical research, and my simple reporting of what the standard Hebrew calendars report.

By the way, I don't know if y'all caught it, but in TOM II (What Maimonides Missed) Chapter 10: Dates of Destiny, Future Tense, I came to the conclusion that the ultimate Yom Teruah isn't actually required by scripture to fall on a natural Sabbath, no matter how poetic that would be. Here's the passage:

Quote:
There’s another issue that needs to be addressed. As we saw in Mitzvot #130 and #131 (Leviticus 23:24-25), and again in our present text, the Feast of Trumpets is to be celebrated as a Sabbath. No one’s customary work is to be performed on this day. The bottom-line spiritual principle, of course, is that in the end, we can’t earn or work for what God is proposing to do for us on this day—transform us from frail mortals to incorruptible eternal beings capable of standing in His very presence. Rather, we must accept it as Yahweh’s gift to us, resting in His finished work, if we are to receive it at all. But there is a literal side to this as well. It appears (though it’s by no means certain) that the definitive Yom Teruah should take place in a year in which the first day of Tishri falls on a natural Sabbath. In the next few decades, there are only a handful of such dates left: 2009, 2020, 2023, and 2026 (this last one about two months before the Tribulation is scheduled to begin, if my observations are correct—see Future History for my thoughts on prophetic chronology).

Why am I not certain? The word used to describe the Sabbath-ness of this miqra (in Leviticus 23:24) is sabbaton, meaning “Sabbath observance.” There is a far more commonly used term for Sabbath—Sabbat, but it is never used in scripture to describe the Feast of Trumpets. Both words are based on the verb sabat, meaning to cease, desist, or rest. The –on suffix of sabbaton and other Hebrew nouns indicates their abstract or conceptual nature—the observance of Sabbath rest as opposed to the Sabbath day itself (i.e., Saturday). Sabbaton is used only eleven times in scripture, four times referring to the weekly Sabbath, twice to the Sabbatical year, once to Yom Teruah, twice referring to Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), and twice to Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles). Two things about this list give me pause, so I’ll just lay my cards on the table. First, the word Sabbaton was not used of the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the actual instructions concerning it, though Chag Matzah did fall on a natural Sabbath in the year of its definitive fulfillment, 33 A.D. (It was only described: “You shall do no work.”) It was, however, referred to as the Sabbat in the Feast of Weeks instructions: “Count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath….” This is the linguistic converse of what we see with Yom Teruah—which is called Sabbaton but not Sabbat.

Second, the Day of Atonement is twice called a Sabbaton, but my research for Future History led me to the firm conviction that the definitive Yom Kippur and the definitive Sukkot will occur in the same year, which, according to the rules of the Torah, means they can’t both fall on natural Sabbaths, because they’re five days apart (see Precept #861). If the Day of Atonement (called a Sabbaton) is a Sabbath observance that will not fall on a natural Sabbath (since the evidence tells me that the Feast of Tabernacles will), could the same thing be true of the Feast of Trumpets? You can see why I’m reluctant to positively predict a Sabbath (Saturday) fulfillment for Yom Teruah.

The bottom line is that for us who are called out of the world by Yahshua (i.e., the ekklesia—the “church”), the transformation of our mortal bodies into immortal, incorruptible, spiritual beings will occur on Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets. All the evidence I’ve seen points toward a fulfillment of this miqra (in an event popularly known as “the rapture”) on the first day of Tishri some year between now and 2026. And whether or not it will fall on a natural Sabbath, no one can achieve what the day portends through his own efforts.


kp
Offline RidesWithYah  
#55 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:40:33 AM(UTC)
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Very helpful, thanks. (I haven't gotten to Book 2 yet, but am thoroughly enjoying Book 1).

The "natural Sabbath" concept hooked with me...
which is why I was exploring the dates.
So if the use of Sabbaton suggests that it does NOT fall on the seventh day,
care to take a guess at the correct year?
Offline kp  
#56 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:08:15 PM(UTC)
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Best guess, 20... Nah, I'm not going there. Probably sometime between 2009 and 2023. More likely later than sooner. (Darn it.)

kp
Offline In His Name  
#57 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:49:49 PM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
More likely later than sooner. (Darn it.)

kp


"Darn it", is right!! I am ready!!
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline bitnet  
#58 Posted : Monday, August 24, 2009 9:07:12 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Another thing that may be of consideration is how the seventh-day Sabbath is counted using the standard GMT schedule. Presently the start of a new day wherever you are is at midnight, but the International Date Line is 12 hours away from Greenwich, UK. As such we in the East precede Israel by several hours and have been keeping Sabbath earlier than Israel. However, if we are to keep time by events in Israel, technically we should be several hours behind. Case in point... if the sun sets in Israel and begins a new day, then what Scriptural time is Jordan keeping? Are they a day behind? And as you move up the latitudes, your sunsets and sunrises will start to play havoc on your schedules. So you see, really keeping the day is a real problem. The significance of the day is more relevant and important.

As it is, for us in the modern age, our keeping of the Sabbaths and Set-Apart Days precede Israel time, and we may be jumping the gun, so to speak. At the same time (!?)we may actually be working on the real weekly Sabbath when we begin our businesses on our current Saturday evenings as the Sabbath really is still in effect or just coming around to us. Kapish? So when the harvest happens, those in Israel may have stopped work because of the Sabbath but we have already started the first day of the week and may be in the fields, shops and other places of work hence some Scriptural statements to that effect. So yes, it is the significance of the day that really matters, and we need to understand it properly in context rather than count the seconds and minutes before lighting menorahs. Erm, so which year is the Harvest going to be? I don't think He gave out the memo on that -- yet.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#59 Posted : Monday, August 31, 2009 9:08:53 PM(UTC)
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Warm up the brass - here come the Trumpets! lol
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Offline JamesH  
#60 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2009 2:16:59 PM(UTC)
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Matthew should be able to see the new moon before most of us. ( New Month ) http://www.crescentmoonwatch.org/nextnewmoon.htm
Offline Matthew  
#61 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:44:29 AM(UTC)
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Interesting. So does that mean my Trumpets starts a day earlier and then falls over a natural Sabbath?

But how does the start of the month occur? If the new moon crescent appears during the late afternoon does that mean the new month will start at evening, or that the 2nd day of the month will start at evening?

Do we use the atronomical or observational viewpoint in order to determine when the new month begins?
Offline kp  
#62 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:55:34 AM(UTC)
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The real question: how does Yahweh figure this? His is the only calendar that counts. (And no, I don't have the answer to that.)

kp
Offline James  
#63 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:02:06 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
The real question: how does Yahweh figure this? His is the only calendar that counts. (And no, I don't have the answer to that.)

kp

But you're supposed to have all the answers Ken, I'm disappointed. LOL Just Kidding.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline JamesH  
#64 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2009 5:20:35 AM(UTC)
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Just thinking out loud, but maybe this is why we don’t know the day or hour.
Offline James  
#65 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:48:09 AM(UTC)
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JamesH wrote:
Just thinking out loud, but maybe this is why we don’t know the day or hour.

That and the fact that keeping exactly is not what Yahweh intended. He made it so that we can never do it perfectly for a reason, understanding it is more important than keeping it exactly.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Bridget  
#66 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:20:56 PM(UTC)
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I have a question.

Do the dates Really matter that much? I mean, to me, this is like people celebrating "Earth Day".
Shouldn't it be all of the time that we are mindful? Regardless of the day, hour, year, etc?

Please excuse my ignorance.
Offline Matthew  
#67 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:02:34 PM(UTC)
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Bridget wrote:
I have a question.

Do the dates Really matter that much? I mean, to me, this is like people celebrating "Earth Day".
Shouldn't it be all of the time that we are mindful? Regardless of the day, hour, year, etc?

Please excuse my ignorance.

I think you're right on the money there Bridget!
Offline James  
#68 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2009 2:01:09 PM(UTC)
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I look at it like this, we are supposed to understand the Miqra and teach others, so in that respect, yeah Bridget we should do this every day. That said I think setting aside a day to celebrate is a good thing.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline kp  
#69 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 3:55:05 AM(UTC)
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Re: post #65, I wrote:
Quote:
The real question: how does Yahweh figure this? His is the only calendar that counts. (And no, I don't have the answer to that.)


I think I spoke too soon. The proverbial "light bulb" came on above my head at 5:00 this morning: It now seems logical to me to expect the fulfillment of the promise of Yom Teruah (the Feast of Trumpets)---namely, the rapture of the ekklesia and the shout of alarm from those left behind---to happen on whatever day observant Jews celebrate. Why? Because the Instructions of Yahweh are supposed to be signs to them.

"You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up..." (Deuteronomy 11:14)

So here's the scenario: the Jews are celebrating what they think is "Rosh Hashanah" some year, and on that day all of the Born-from-above folks of the Ekklesia of Yahshua the Messiah suddenly disappear from the face of the earth. Sure, it will be a pitifully small number when contrasted to those who call themselves "Christians," but a significant group for one very important reason: these are the people whom the Jews (more correctly, Israel) knew, deep within their souls, were their only real ally on the earth. Our disappearance---the harpazo---will be taken as a sign by them (some of them, anyway).

But if the rapture occurs a day later or earlier, nobody left behind will make the connection. The day won't serve as a sign to Israel or anybody else.

Well, at least that made sense to me at five o'clock this morning. On the other hand, I was asleep at the time. But what was it Joel said? Your old men will dream dreams...

kp
Offline Noach  
#70 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:15:54 AM(UTC)
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I like your analysis KP. I think that no matter what day the harvest occurs on, Yahuweh will prepare His family for the journey. Just as he sent messengers to prepare and take Lot by the hand, considering He didn't just snatch Lot away, I would think that He would send messengers to prepare us for the proper time also. As long as we understand and observe the importance of the appointed times.

Just a thought.

Noah
Offline James  
#71 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:54:09 AM(UTC)
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The logic seems sound to me KP.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline lassie1865  
#72 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 11:18:40 AM(UTC)
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Greetings,

I just came from congregating with a small group (a total of 5) here in my town, celebrating the Feast of Trumpets and blowing the silver trumpets and the shofar. We had a good discussion of "listening for Yahweh's voice (Trumpet)".

Blessings,

Lassie1865
Offline pauljw  
#73 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 2:49:21 PM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
Greetings,

I just came from congregating with a small group (a total of 5) here in my town, celebrating the Feast of Trumpets and blowing the silver trumpets and the shofar. We had a good discussion of "listening for Yahweh's voice (Trumpet)".

Blessings,

Lassie1865


That's wonderful. Being completely new to all of this, I have no idea how to celebrate any of the migra. Can anyone point me to clear modern english instruction as to how I can properly celebrate with my family in a manner pleasing to Yahweh? All I'm managing now is a huge guilt trip,

Paul
Offline James  
#74 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 3:13:13 PM(UTC)
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pauljw wrote:
That's wonderful. Being completely new to all of this, I have no idea how to celebrate any of the migra. Can anyone point me to clear modern english instruction as to how I can properly celebrate with my family in a manner pleasing to Yahweh? All I'm managing now is a huge guilt trip,

Paul

I can't tell where to go to get a guide on what to do, but as I understand it, the way observe the Miqra best is to understand what they symbolize, and mean, and then tell others, to that extent, I would suggest learning about them. Yada Yahweh is a good start, as Yada amplifies every verse concerning them, and discusses them in great detail, he does not however give a step by step guide to celebrating them, as that would defeat the purpose. Personally I tend to have a feast, good food, and good friends. Then I try to stir up conversation about the feast wee are celebrating. If the feast has certain things that are symbolic as part of it, i.e. unleavened bread, lamb, bitter herbs etc. I include them, and use them as conversation starters. Last year for passover I typed up about a one page summery of passover and it's meaning, which my wife read before dinner, along with an amplification of Psalm 22.

Like I said I think Yahweh is pleased when we take the time to learn about his plan, and to teach others, not so much about religiously following a guide book to a meal. For Taruw'ah which is coming up, Sunday night Sept. 20th, I would recommend spending the day studying it with your family as a way to celebrate it.

Welcome to the forum Paul, I hope you enjoy it here.
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Offline Matthew  
#75 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:52:57 PM(UTC)
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Welcome to the forum paul. James is pretty much right on this one, if we turned it into a list of things to do we could end forgetting why we're remembering the day in the first place. So try use your time to gather with friends, and have discussing what the relevant feast represents.

kp wrote:
It now seems logical to me to expect the fulfillment of the promise of Yom Teruah (the Feast of Trumpets)---namely, the rapture of the ekklesia and the shout of alarm from those left behind---to happen on whatever day observant Jews celebrate. Why? Because the Instructions of Yahweh are supposed to be signs to them.

That's pretty much the way I saw it too, and with your guys (you and Yada) reckoning Yahshua returns at sunset on Atonement it does confirm Yahweh is pretty much on Jerusalem time.

Quote:
So here's the scenario: the Jews are celebrating what they think is "Rosh Hashanah" some year, and on that day all of the Born-from-above folks of the Ekklesia of Yahshua the Messiah suddenly disappear from the face of the earth.

I got family Rosh Hashananah lunch tomorrow, yipee...
Offline StuDent  
#76 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 6:59:26 PM(UTC)
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I can't agree with the idea of the harpazo occuring on any day except the exact day by Yahweh's calendar, even if the majority of the Jewish nation have a new Babylonian Holiday their rabbi's have set up for them. I've been looking at some information on some websites that are run by Karaite Jews and it has broght some questions to mind. From what I can gleen they number 40,000 in Israel and possibly have their origins from the Sadducees and Boethusians. I know only what I've read today about them but I understand they do not follow anything but TaNaK. It seems to me that it woluld be easier for them to notice the fulfillment of Yom HaTeruah, as they may be the only Jews observing it.

I was just thinking that this group may increase in numbers as time passes by.I don't know, but it seems what they have is more of a way of life than religion.I think they may even be willing to talk with us Goyim. I'm going to give a link to one site that had some thought provoking essays. Karaite Insights
Are these the people we should be reaching out to?
"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he"
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#77 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2009 10:50:15 PM(UTC)
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Hi Stu

I agree with you on the first part.

The Karaites are a very interesting bunch. They do talk to us dirty goyim, because they understand the Tanak and reject that Talmud - they understand that man has destroyed what Yah gave them and turned it into a religion. I think the most of them call Yahuweh - Yahovah, they believe in speaking the name but because of Hebrew being a little bit twisted they cant see back into the past and the sound, errm, "evolution" lol.

Very clued up guys - the one I know of claimed that Yahushua preached Torah, and that He never annulled it after He had researched it, and he does talks on that which I will try and find... Although they still miss the Messiyah, and the ones who believe Yahushua see Him as a Karaite Jew, and that's that.

So if there were a group of Jewish people to come back to Yah I believe it would be these guys - as they are half way there and surely its just a matter of time. They are the ones who are going to be more clued up about events than the rest of their Othodox friends...

EDIT: Link as promised... http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/52_gordon.html
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#78 Posted : Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:04:51 AM(UTC)
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Somebody please tell me the rapture wasn't yesterday, and I missed it...

=========================================

We celebrated Feast of Trumpets as Leviticus says -- no servile work,
and an offering made by fire. Hebrew Nationals hot dogs at a local park,
after sounding the Shofar and a short worship service including songs calling
others to the Feast. I'm sure many in the park were confused.
One guy fishing stopped to inquire, and had a nice chat with one of the elders.
Planting the seed.

It was a good chance to invite some friends who haven't been involved --
one neighbor down the street came. And my wife and kids.
It's the first time I've gotten them to "my" church,
instead of the Sunday church.

One small step...
Offline pauljw  
#79 Posted : Sunday, September 20, 2009 5:01:09 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the kind welcome and insights. I'm so thankful to Yahweh for leading me to this website in my search for the truth. I've been relearning everything I thought I knew about God and loving every minute of it.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#80 Posted : Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:46:30 AM(UTC)
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Kind of surprised there wasn't more discussion about Atonement here.

I shared some of KP's writings with the Elder who leads our church -- how Jews haven't been able to properly observe the Feast for 2500 years, and how it all points to the day when Israel will recognize the Messiah and mourn for the one they pierced.

He used a large portion of it -- verbatim -- in his message.

Looking forward to Tabernacles!
Offline James  
#81 Posted : Tuesday, September 29, 2009 3:03:38 AM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:

I shared some of KP's writings with the Elder who leads our church -- how Jews haven't been able to properly observe the Feast for 2500 years, and how it all points to the day when Israel will recognize the Messiah and mourn for the one they pierced.

He used a large portion of it -- verbatim -- in his message.

Looking forward to Tabernacles!

WOW. Did he only focus on the prophetic meaning of it, or did he touch on our observance of it?

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline lassie1865  
#82 Posted : Wednesday, January 13, 2010 9:18:09 AM(UTC)
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I think this topic has been addressed previously on this forum, but I couldn't locate it. Should the Sabbath and the Miqra begin at 6 pm in each individual time zone where one lives, or must it begin at 6 pm in Jerusalem?
Offline J&M  
#83 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:04:41 AM(UTC)
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Regarding the start time for Shabat and the Miqrae of Yahu'eh (YHWH).

How we have done/ do things..........

Don't worry about 6pm, go by the sunset, unless it's really late at night/morning (if you live in the remote, northmost parts of the northern hemisphere!!!)

With today’s technology one can observe the Miqrae by the sighted new moon in Jerusalem....
eg.
New Moon Report
January 2010
Eleventh Biblical Month

On Saturday January 16, 2010, the new moon was sighted from Jerusalem, Israel at 17:20 by... taken from http://www.sightedmoon.com/


OR use the moon in your sky. Sighting the new moon is an art and takes practice, and is lots of fun.

The 'Jewish' calendar in use today uses Babylonian names and uses predetermined dates for their festivals, and uses astronomical new moon dates, which rarely match 'sighted' dates here in Jerusalem.

The Tanach shows that preset dates were not used, and visual sightings were how Miqrae were known.
There are two months where this is/was very important.

This coming 'new moon/barley' Passover is either going to be end of March or end of April 2010 , for the followers of Judaism the preset date will be March 30th 2010 , across the world. So we may coincide, be 1 or 2 days different, or a complete month out!! Which can result in conflicting work/school holidays!!

The Spring 'month 1' is where the moon and the 'moisture' content of the barley crop had to agree. If the barley wasn't at the appropriate stage of swelling, perhaps because it was too early in the year (12 to 13 month lunar cycle),then 'month one' would happen 29 to 30 days later when the next new moon was sighted.

The 10th day was 'select your lamb' day and the 14th day was
'kill your lamb' day or Passover, followed on the 15th day of the first month by Unleavened bread for seven days!!

The other important new moon is the 1st of the 7th month, the Miqra of Teruah, followed by the Miqra of Reconciliations on the 10th day of the 7th month, followed by the Miqra of Sukot on the 15th day for 7 days ,and the 23rd day of the 7th month, the 7 + 1 = 8th day!! B'Yom HaSh'mini , literally ' in/on the eighth '


We are told to 'observe' the Miqrae. They are the opportunity for us to get closer to, and to walk the path of YHWH how he wants us to, preferably in the company of 'like minded' others. They are for the most part, 'party time' and 'camping out' with our Father, YHWH.

So enjoy, they are not meant to be ‘rituals’, either Shabat or the Miqrae.

Some sites re new moon:-

http://www.truthofyahweh.org/moon.htm
http://www.sightedmoon.com/
http://www.atlbible.org/astronomy/09Sep.htm

Offline lassie1865  
#84 Posted : Friday, March 12, 2010 4:15:22 AM(UTC)
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As for the timing of Passover, I copied this from Congregation of Yahweh:

"If you simply wait till the winter is past when the sun passes the equator, then start your year in Aviv as Scripture states, you will always have ripe barley. I will try to send some pictures next week to let you know where the grain harvest stands here in the land, but regardless, since the new moon will occur on March 16th, and the equinox does not happen until March 20th, according to scripture we need to add an extra month called Adar 2 this year, and Aviv would be the next New Moon which is April 15th, starting on the 14th at sunset."

Any ideas on this for this year?

Offline James  
#85 Posted : Friday, March 12, 2010 6:12:05 AM(UTC)
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lassie1865 wrote:
As for the timing of Passover, I copied this from Congregation of Yahweh:

"If you simply wait till the winter is past when the sun passes the equator, then start your year in Aviv as Scripture states, you will always have ripe barley. I will try to send some pictures next week to let you know where the grain harvest stands here in the land, but regardless, since the new moon will occur on March 16th, and the equinox does not happen until March 20th, according to scripture we need to add an extra month called Adar 2 this year, and Aviv would be the next New Moon which is April 15th, starting on the 14th at sunset."

Any ideas on this for this year?


As I understand it using the equinox will get you right about 90% of the time, but from what I understand it is the new moon nearest the spring equinox, not after it. It may be before or after, but it is the one nearest it. I could be wrong.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline danshelper  
#86 Posted : Saturday, March 20, 2010 9:06:25 AM(UTC)
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Are we using the right calendar to determine the new moon, sabbath and festival dates? I'm trying to see if anyone here has read/researched the information the author of this website suggests: http://the7lostpilgrimfeasts.webs.com/

He has a 2010 calendar here: http://eliyahsmessage.com/calendar.pdf

Please help me evaluate this information! Thanks.

Offline Matthew  
#87 Posted : Saturday, March 20, 2010 9:36:14 AM(UTC)
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Hey dan, try this chapter from YY, it's pretty good: http://www.yadayahweh.co...Assemblies_Miqra_ey.YHWH
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#88 Posted : Saturday, March 20, 2010 10:21:52 AM(UTC)
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Hold on a sec - is it me or is eliyah's moons all mixed up. The month starts on the new moon - not the full moon. Passover is 14 days in from the sighting of the new moon, which is a full moon because 14 days = half way through that monthly cycle.

I think he's got a little astrologically confused lol
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Matthew  
#89 Posted : Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:22:00 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
I think he's got a little astrologically confused lol


Astrologically or astronomically?
Offline danshelper  
#90 Posted : Sunday, March 21, 2010 3:54:31 AM(UTC)
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What about Psalm 81:3? "Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast-day."
Is this a reference to Trumpets, the first day of the seventh month?
If the seventh month is a full moon, isn't it reasonable to say that all months begin with a full moon?
Offline James  
#91 Posted : Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:07:17 AM(UTC)
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danshelper wrote:
What about Psalm 81:3? "Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast-day."
Is this a reference to Trumpets, the first day of the seventh month?
If the seventh month is a full moon, isn't it reasonable to say that all months begin with a full moon?

In Hebrew it is the Renewed Moon, a renewal doesn't occur when the moon is full, when the moon disappears and then reappears, when it stops wanning and begins waxing then it is Renewing. The Renewed Moon is the start of the the new month. The Hebrew word used in the Psalm, it is 81:4 not 81:3 by the way, is Kese' where as the Hebrew word for New Moon is Chadash which at it's roots speaks of Renewal.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline danshelper  
#92 Posted : Monday, March 22, 2010 9:48:24 AM(UTC)
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The author (http://eliyahsmessage.com/time.pdf ) uses the book of Enoch along with (canonized) Scripture to support his conclusions that the renewed moon is the full moon and that the full moon is the beginning of the month.

"... Rebuilding of the Moon, or the observable days of renewing, cannot begin until after its conjunction midpoint with the Sun. Chodesh (rebuilding) begins at conjunction, but it is not the New Moon, rather it is the beginning of a process toward a New Moon. Renewing, by definition, implies that it is a follow on process, but follow on to what? The Moon must renew because the waning Moon phases returned the observable Moon to a dark Moon at conjunction, making renewal (Chodesh) necessary.

The objective of the renewing process is the renewed full Moon.

... Enoch gives us the added information: “She accomplishes her waning in the first period of time.” (Enoch 78:15). The waning phases follow the full Moon, which he called the first period. Thus, he adversely named the full Moon as the beginning of the month. The day of the full Moon is the New Moon, permanent and fixed in full view for all to see."
Offline James  
#93 Posted : Monday, March 22, 2010 12:03:17 PM(UTC)
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The only problem with that dashelper, is that the Psalm 81:4 verse presents the New Moon and the Full Moon as 2 distinct times. Blow the trumpet at the Chodash, the Kese, and the Miqra.

So here we are shown that Chodash is not Kese, the Renewal of the Moon, is not the Full Moon.

Enoch is not a very reliable source, while we have a few scrolls of some of the early chapters in the DSS, most of what we have is very late CE.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Matthew  
#94 Posted : Monday, March 22, 2010 12:38:51 PM(UTC)
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Dan, reading the verses earlier in Enoch it seems to say pretty clear, especially verse 12, that the new moon is when the light begins to grow more on the surface of the moon. Also, "period of time," if I'm not mistaken, refers to the first half of the year, separated by 3 months of 30 days and 3 months of 29 days, a difference being due to the waning. But I'm not an astronomer nor a theologian so I'm not quite sure what's being said in the Book of Enoch here.

Enoch 78:10-17

Quote:
10. And Uriel showed me another law: when light is transferred to the moon, and on which side it is transferred to her by the sun.
11. During all the period during which the moon is growing in her light, she is transferring it to herself when opposite to the sun during fourteen days [her light is accomplished in the heaven], and when she is illumined throughout, her light is accomplished full in the heaven. 12. And on the first day she is called the new moon, for on that day the light rises upon her.
13. She becomes full moon exactly on the day when the sun sets in the west, and from the east she rises at night, and the moon shines the whole night through till the sun rises over against her and the moon is seen over against the sun.
14. On the side whence the light of the moon comes forth, there again she wanes till all the light vanishes and all the days of the month are at an end, and her circumference is empty, void of light.
15. And three months she makes of thirty days, and at her time she makes three months of twenty-nine days each, in which she accomplishes her waning in the first period of time, and in the first portal for one hundred and seventy-seven days.
16. And in the time of her going out she appears for three months (of) thirty days each, and for three months she appears (of) twenty-nine each.
17. At night she appears like a man for twenty days each time, and by day she appears like the heaven, and there is nothing else in her save her light.


Also, verse 6 is revealing:

Quote:
6. And when the moon rises one-fourteenth part appears in the heaven: ⌈the light becomes full in her⌉: on the fourteenth day she accomplishes her light.


In other words, if she becomes full on the 14th day that means day "1" is when the moon has no light.

Book of Enoch source

But here's what kp has to say on the matter:

From Chapter 10 - Dates of Destiny: Future Tense - TOM - What Maimonides Missed
Quote:
Yom Teruah, or the Feast of Trumpets, falls on the first day of Tishri. This makes it unique among the seven miqrym, for it falls during a period of lunar darkness, when the moon is reflecting practically none of the sun’s light to earth. (Every lunar month begins and ends this way.) By contrast, the spring miqrym all hover around the middle of the month, the brightest part (the full moon), as does the final one, the Feast of Tabernacles. The two remaining days both occur when the moon is “waxing,” i.e., when its reflection is in the process of increasing in brightness. I don’t know how significant that is, but it strikes me that none of this is accidental: Yahweh has planned every detail. He seems to be telling us that the ekklesia will be raptured from the earth during a period of maximum spiritual darkness. The days in which we live certainly seem to moving in that direction. I mean, how much darker can the world get?


From Chapter 5 - Yahweh's Team - TOM - What Maimonides Missed
Quote:
Set up the tabernacle on “New Year’s Day.” “Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying: ‘On the first day of the first month you shall set up the tabernacle of the tent of meeting. You shall put in it the ark of the Testimony, and partition off the ark with the veil. You shall bring in the table and arrange the things that are to be set in order on it; and you shall bring in the lampstand and light its lamps. You shall also set the altar of gold for the incense before the ark of the Testimony, and put up the screen for the door of the tabernacle. Then you shall set the altar of the burnt offering before the door of the tabernacle of the tent of meeting. And you shall set the laver between the tabernacle of meeting and the altar, and put water in it. You shall set up the court all around, and hang up the screen at the court gate.’” (Exodus 40:1-8) A couple of things bear notice here. First, Yahweh has a schedule. He does things in order, on time, and according to His own plan. The first day of the first month (Abib/Nisan) wasn’t one of the seven mow’ed miqrym, or “appointed convocations” that defined and prophesied the seven most significant milestones in His plan of redemption. Rather, it was about two weeks prior to the first of them. The lesson: Yahweh’s plan of salvation was in place before He commenced the process of saving us. He’s not making this stuff up as He goes along, reacting to unexpected emergencies and putting out fires, but is methodically pursuing a strategy and timeline He established and unveiled long before we—its beneficiaries—even realized what was going on.

And notice something else about the date: the first day of the month (when the Tabernacle was to be erected) coincided with the new moon. It was dark at night. But the first three miqrym—Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of Firstfruits—were scheduled for the 14th, 15th and 16th, when the moon was full and everybody could plainly see what was going on, even after the sun had set. His plan, in other words, is designed to be obvious to anybody willing to look. If Yahweh is so obviously on a schedule, and if He’s told us so much about that schedule, we would be idiots to disregard it, to take half a verse (“But of that day and hour no one perceives”—Matthew 24:36) out of context and conclude that we can’t know anything about God’s timing, and even that it’s somehow a heresy against God’s Word to pay attention to what He did say on the subject. He said a lot. We in this last generation ignore it at our peril.

Second, this “New Year’s Day” came less than one year after the exodus—which got underway about two weeks before this date the previous year. Considering how much had to be done in the construction of the Tabernacle and its appurtenances, I envision this project to be the primary occupation of the entire nation of Israel during that first year. To get the job done, hundreds of thousands of Israelites had to be involved in one way or another. They were starting from scratch, and it was an immense undertaking. It required focus, unity of purpose, and cooperation from every sector of society. What could we achieve if all humanity came together under the banner of King Yahshua? Or perhaps I should ask, what will we achieve...?

Third, although it’s not stated here, there were specific people assigned to setting up the Tabernacle. As we read on in Exodus 40 we get the vague impression that Moses himself set everything up (making him one spry and overworked 81-year old), but we get the particulars in Numbers 3: of the Levite clans, Gershon was to handle the Tabernacle’s “soft” components, curtains, veils, etc.; Kohath handled all the furnishings and utensils; and Merari was to take care of the “hard” structural elements like boards, pillars, socket-bases, and so forth. As in the previous precept, we see that our tasks are assigned by Yahweh. We are not to shirk our own duties, nor are we to covet or usurp the roles He has given to others to perform.
When viewed this way, it seems the Tabernacle was like a traveling circus: a thousand disparate pieces, from large swaths of linen and leather, to immense hunks of silver or bronze with mysterious holes in them, to small, solid gold spoons and wick trimmers. Separately, the parts suggest nothing. It is only when they come together under God’s direction that their significance unfolds—beautiful, even stunning, to those of us who dare to look beyond the material entity to discover the Plan of God implied in every detail—put together on the first day of the year to tell us what its Designer would accomplish during the time of mankind upon the earth. Like the circus, everybody has a job to do. But this, my friends, really is the Greatest Show on Earth.


Dan, I haven't read the article so please don't assume I know what the guy said, I just think Scripture is very clear on the matter therefore the author's reasoning has bound to be off. Maybe I'm being a bit close-minded, hmmm... the thread Priorities comes to mind!

James' post also confirms what Scripture says on the matter, and James did it in fewer words than me.
Offline danshelper  
#95 Posted : Monday, March 29, 2010 6:44:34 AM(UTC)
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I'm still continually nagged by this calendar issue. With all the truth that has been tampered with, why would we not at least consider that our Creator's calendar (HIS Sabbaths, HIS appointed times) might be one of the adversary's Babylonian corruptions?

James, how does this verse in Psalm 81 break down? "Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our feast day." ESV
There are 4 elements:
1. trumpet/ram's horn
2. new moon/month (chodesh)
3. full moon/appointed time (kese)
4. festival (chag)

The trumpet/ram's horn blowing (1) seems to apply to all the events (2-4) that follow. Does the grammatical structure make it so that these must be separate events? If they are distinct, is there record that the trumpet was blown solely to announce a full moon? If these are not separate events, which events are connected/synonymous - is new moon/month connected with full moon (2 & 3), is full moon/appointed time connected with festival (3 & 4)? Are all synonymous? If it were just 2 and 4 that are snynonymous, why are they separated in the sentence? The feast of Trumpets, the 1st day of the 7th month fits 2 & 4, how can 3 not be included?

If you could delete from your mind any presumption of the term "new moon" what would you think this sentence was saying? Isn't chodesh most often translated as month or monthly?

Other measurements of time - seconds, hours, days, years - all begin from a fullness. We say it's quarter past 2, half past 3, ten minutes to 5, etc. - always referencing the fullness of the hour. These units of time are all divisible by 12 and they all build to the next unit so they are more like the sun (and what, if any connection does all this have with the woman of Revelations 12?) They don't wane and wax like the moon or share the moon's units (28/29/30 days).

But there is one cycle that shares the moon's attributes. And that cycle begins with fullness. It is the menstrual cycle - menses/moon (sorry gentlemen, but can you give a better example?). And the menstrual cycle is "counted from the first day of menstrual bleeding" (waning!). The uterus wanes then waxes full, and the cycle begins again.

It is also "uncomfortable" (not that comfort matters) that we follow a month beginning as "dark" or "crescent" - icons of the prince of darkness. It evokes the image in my mind of being led around with a hook in the nostrils.

The Enoch astronomical writings (The Turning of the Lights in the Sky), are difficult to decipher. Number of days often mean days of a particular wane/wax cycle, not the entire month. Verses are incomplete sentences and seem to include opposite messages, like the one which includes the only reference to "beginning of the month."

79:3 And the waning of the Moon, which occurs in the sixth Gate, for in that sixth Gate it's light becomes full, and after that it is the beginning of the month.

Matthew, could the darkness during Yahushua's death be as a result of a solar eclipse (which can only happen during conjunction/dark moon, on the 14th/15th day after the full moon)? “And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Sovereign Yahuweh, that I will cause the Sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day .... and I will make that time like mourning for an only son” (Amos 8:9,10).

The booklet It's About Time http://eliyahsmessage.com/time.pdf raises some serious questions and rather than rambled thinking like my post here, it uses Scripture and science to make a compelling argument, one that at least deserves serious consideration. After having been duped in so many areas through religious teaching that I thought was true, I just don't believe anything is safe from the enemy's corruptions.
Offline danshelper  
#96 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:17:25 AM(UTC)
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Still wondering why we should be so sure that the beginning of each month is the dark or crescent moon?

Isn't even a hint of doubt raised in any mind given that:

In Genesis 1, the moon, like the sun "governs" or "rules". What rules from emptiness? Who governs from darkness? When Yahushua said in Luke 22:53 "But this is your hour, when darkness reigns" - would the reign of darkness be on the night of a full moon?? And would the cowardly and secretive religious leaders have authorized the use of torches and lanterns in their search for our Savior if the moon had been full? Would they not have used the light of the full moon and kept their wicked activities hidden - using the element of surprise?

In Job 26:9, the word for full moon is translated by some as throne. If Yah's throne is connected to the full moon, whose "throne" is connected to the dark moon?

The seductive, adulterous woman of Proverbs 7, who is in rebellion against her husband's authority - in her dark activities (hidden heart), is she not set in contrast to her husband, who is her head, and are not her evil ways pictured as rebellion against his authority which is connected with the full light and headship of the full moon?

And again, the point made in the last post about the only other monthly cycle to compare the moon's monthly cycle to - menstruation - which is defined as beginning with the process of waning/bleeding: "Menstrual cycles are counted from the first day of menstrual bleeding." (wikipedia). Along with the fact that Enoch's moon is a "she" ...

Doesn't any of this cause anyone else to have any hint of suspicion that we may be being "led" by the wrong moon?
Offline Walt  
#97 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:56:31 AM(UTC)
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danshelper wrote:


Doesn't any of this cause anyone else to have any hint of suspicion that we may be being "led" by the wrong moon?


Not for me
There is too much evidence on the other side

Because some translate moon as throne in Job doesn't make it authorative

Coming to get MessiYah with torches during full moon doesn't present a problem - was it cloudy or clear? - they weren't trying to stay hidden or anything

I also see too much religion and problems with eliyahsmessage teachings - like the day being sunrise to sunrise
Offline kp  
#98 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:30:28 AM(UTC)
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The Israelites were commanded to make regular monthly offerings: 11“At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to Yahweh: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish; 12also three tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for each bull, and two tenths of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram; 13and a tenth of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering for every lamb; for a burnt offering with a pleasing aroma, a food offering to Yahweh. 14Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull, a third of a hin for a ram, and a quarter of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year. 15Also one male goat for a sin offering to Yahweh; it shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering." (Numbers 28:11-15)

Elsewhere, the "beginning of your months" was specified: "29Their duty was also to assist with the showbread, the flour for the grain offering, the wafers of unleavened bread, the baked offering, the offering mixed with oil, and all measures of quantity or size. 30And they were to stand every morning, thanking and praising Yahweh, and likewise at evening, 31and whenever burnt offerings were offered to Yahweh on Sabbaths, new moons and feast days, according to the number required of them, regularly before Yahweh. 32Thus they were to keep charge of the tent of meeting and the sanctuary, and to attend the sons of Aaron, their brothers, for the service of the house of Yahweh." (I Chronicles 23:29-32)

So the new moon did mark the beginning of the month. The reason it wasn't blatantly "commanded" blatantly was that this was common knowledge---nobody questioned it.

kp



Offline J&M  
#99 Posted : Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:01:00 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

FYI crescent moon seen in Jerusalem / Israel , so for me sunset on Thurs 15th April, is Day 1 of 2nd Month.

http://groups.yahoo.com/..._korner_news/message/485

Shabat Shalom

Yonit/Jane
Offline danshelper  
#100 Posted : Thursday, May 6, 2010 1:38:09 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 11/30/2009(UTC)
Posts: 196
Location: Gettysburg, PA

Please endure with me ... I haven't settled this in my mind yet.

Psalm 104:19 - He appointed the moon for seasons

Why would YHWH of hosts (H6635 - appointed time)
who is only light,
appoint (H6213 - accomplish, have charge of, govern)
the dark/crescent moon - symbols of Satan and Islam,
to "have charge of" the pathway back to Himself - the Father of Lights?

His appointed times "serve as prophetic signposts, dating, explaining, and facilitating the path to paradise."

The first of the month is the starting place to proceed to YHWH's appointments. Why would He use a dark/crescent moon to show us the beginning of the path to His appointments which are the means to light/life?

Could the month that cycles from dark to dark - be tradition - not truth?

These websites/articles teach that it is YHWH's full moon - full of light - that begins a month and provides the light to the path (appointments) of His salvation. And that it is tradition - Babylonian corruption of the truth - that begins and ends the month in darkness.

- http://the7lostpilgrimfeasts.webs.com/
- http://www.bayithamashiyach.com/
- http://gottruth.info/ancient_hebrew_calendar.html
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RepairTheBreachByUncoveringDeception/message/17
- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RepairTheBreachByUncoveringDeception/message/16


If the dark to dark month is not YHWH's truth, are we guilty of violating the 3rd commandment by - "lifting up, accepting, advancing, respecting, yielding to" - tradition and associating this "false, deceptive, idolatrous" doctrine with YHWH's set apart shem/name?

Aside from the supreme issue of YHWH's name, authority, honor, reputation - isn't it necessary to start on the right track to the salvation appointments in order to stay on the right track?

Is it true that the ancient Egyptians, in their cultic moon worship, would not have engaged in any military campaign during a waning moon phase, since they believed that success was dependent on a waxing-to-full moon phase? If Passover was on a full moon, the next day would begin the waning phase.

Is it true that ancient Jericho was devoted to destruction - at least in part because the cultic moon worship practice of decaptitating the dead originated there? Is it true that "Jericho was a pagan, head-worshipping, crescent-moon
observing society, and YHWH wanted it destroyed! They began their months by the visible crescent moon, which
was a carry-over from Babylon and other pagan societies."

We haven't finished uncovering all the deceptions and counterfeits, have we? Why would we not consider the beginning of the month as a tradition to scrutinize under the truth microscope?

Thanks for your serious consideration.

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