I was talking with one of our other admins in the YY Study Group room earlier tonight on Paltalk and she said that she believed that animal sacrifices/offerings were ordained and would continue during the Millennium Sabbath. She quoted: Ezekial 40-48, and Zechariah 6:12 & 13 as justification.

I will run a search on TOM, FH, and YY, but was wondering what members' thougths were?

Thanks.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 2, 2008 4:05:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thanks Ken - as I go through the chapter you linked out to in your post, I have a question - how would you respond to this statement: "The sacrificial system was established pointing to and intended to teach us about the ultimate sacrifice of Yahshua. When that was completed, the curtain in the Temple was torn in two to indicate that the sacrificial system was no longer required."

In the beginning of the chapter you state:



So my question is, why will this be necessary in the future as a remembrance of the past when He will actually be living among us in the present? (Hope I didn't confuse anybody.)

You wrote:



Which I guess is what I'm trying to say/ask. Why will we need these "shadows" when we will have the "reality" of His presence?

I'll keep reading.

Edited by user Sunday, June 1, 2008 11:56:45 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Yada asks: "Why will this (the Millennial sacrifices) be necessary in the future as a remembrance of the past when He will actually be living among us in the present? Why will we need these "shadows" when we will have the "reality" of His presence?" As I intimated before, I think the answer lies in the nature of the Millennial kingdom. Peace will reign, prosperity will be universal for people who honor Yahweh through King Yahshua, and bad behavior (overt sins that affect others) will be confronted and dealt with immediately. Those who lived through the Tribulation will know what they're saved from. They will have seen first hand what sin can do to humanity. They will know intuitively that the sacrifice of Yahshua was essential for their salvation. They will do their best to communicate their feelings to their children. But fast forward three or four generations. The common body of emperical knowledge will have shifted.

Life is perfect, but these folks born a hundred years into the Kingdom age won't have any conception of what "imperfect" is. They'll have no frame of reference whatsoever. Think about it: when is the danger of apostasy, of ceasing to care about the things of God, the greatest in your life? Is it not when life is good, when there is no "reason" to cry out to God in your distress? If we're comfortable, safe, secure, prosperous, and unthreatened by external enemies, then although we may not turn our backs on Yahweh, we still have a tendency to take Him for granted. And taking Him for granted, considering what He did for us, is tantamount to blasphemy. So the Tribulation masses (at least past the first generation) will need a shocking, counterintuitive object lesson to teach them about the reality of their need for salvation, because it won't be apparent from what they see in the world around them. They'll see a King reigning in justice and wisdom, and if they value their lives, they'll obey Him. But they won't see---without the counterintutive object lesson---why the King has a right to rule.

Yahweh Yireh always provides what we need. At one time, we needed a preview of what He would do to effect our reconciliation to Himself. But during the Millennium, the mortals of earth will need a visceral reminder that there's more to the Messiah than a scepter of iron. By sacrificing innocent lambs at the Temple, He will be showing the world (since telling isn't enough) what He did for them, how He died to make them live, and why He has the right to rule.

kp

If I read this thread correctly and these animal sacrifices are to continue, then why aren't we required to continue to slaughter a lamb on Passover? Or, are we?

Thanks.

I just found this quote from Yada Yahweh later in the same chapter I was reading.



Again, if this animal sacrifice is no longer required, why are the others?

We might be able to look to the scriptures for some guidance on this matter:

Deu 16:1 “Guard the month of Aḇiḇ, and perform the Passover to יהוה your Elohim, for in the month of Aḇiḇ יהוה your Elohim brought you out of Mitsrayim by night.
Deu 16:2 “And you shall slaughter the Passover to יהוה your Elohim, from the flock and the herd, in the place where יהוה chooses to put His Name.
Deu 16:3 “Eat no leavened bread with it. For seven days you eat unleavened bread with it, bread of affliction, because you came out of the land of Mitsrayim in haste – so that you remember the day in which you came out of the land of Mitsrayim, all the days of your life.
Deu 16:4 “And no leaven should be seen with you in all your border for seven days, neither should any of the meat which you slaughter in the evening on the first day stay all night until morning.
Deu 16:5 “You are not allowed to slaughter the Passover within any of your gates which יהוה your Elohim gives you,
Deu 16:6 but at the place where יהוה your Elohim chooses to make His Name dwell, there you slaughter the Passover in the evening, at the going down of the sun, at the appointed time you came out of Mitsrayim.
Deu 16:7 “And you shall roast and eat it in the place which יהוה your Elohim chooses, and in the morning you shall turn and go to your tents.

Here are some points and counterpoints:

Here is a portion of an article by Yakob Wolfaardt (a collaborator of C.J. Koster's)

.

This is a snippet of an article that was written by J.D. McKee(Obviously this article has to do with the Pesach and circumcision, but the content is relevant to our discussion):



Obviously this article had to do with the Pesach and circumcision, but the content is relevant to our discussion.

I do believe that all of the offerings attached to ALL moedim will be reinstated. I think we can agree that the Pesach is the grand-daddy of all Moedim and basically made the rest of the Moedim even feasible. Why of all the Moedim would Pesach be the one that is cast off when it is the one that people need the most reminding off. I am in complete accord with KP in regards that the Millenial Temple's offerings and slaughterings will be fully restored and practiced for the very necessary purpose of reminding the people of the eternal realities of the offerings, slaughterings, and Moedim represent. The Talmidim apparently believed (through their continual patronage and visitation of the Hekel) that Yahushua did not do away with the "ceremonial" (so-called) side Torah and in a more specific way the importance of the Temple and the practices that took place there. But I have to admit that that I am in agreement with the position of J.D. McKee, that our observance of the Moedim are at best memorials...shadows of shadows. I am saddened by this reality, and mourn the loss of the Temple. You see I don't think that we are to take the position that most Believers take about Yerushalayim and the Hekel of YHWH...the, "Yippee, Jesus came, so we don't need no stinkin' temple or it's tired old sacrificial system" mentality. The loss of the Temple and all that goes along with it was and is a great tragedy. Yahushua mourned for Yerushalayim and for the temple before the destruction even came....but I know that the Temple has been taken away for a reason. So that Israel and indeed the world might put priority in the Message rather than the messenger. But in the end I think we need to be very very careful that in our zealousness for Torah that we do not disregard it and set up our own systems. No matter how we desire it, and believe me....I can say for myself that I DESIRE IT. I desire to go up to Yerushalayim as a city bursting with Pilgrims, hundreds of Levites singing the hallel, shofars blowing, cymbals crashing, a crowd numbering in the thousands thunderously assenting to the Birkat Kohanim...("Ken Yehi Ratson"), The alter streaming with blood, the gutters overflowing, the terrible bleeting of innocent kids and lambs....Pesach in all it's Horrible yet Beautiful Glory...in all it's Sorrowful Joy...I desire it more than words can say. But at this time..it just isn't to be. The best way to observe these Moedim is to realize what they mean...observe and understand and reflect...and share. A day will come when Pesach is filled up once more BEYOND it's original glory. Indeed, sooner than we think. What we can do now is mark the days to that point with patience (something I admit I am constantly at odds with a la "return Shiloh and speedily") in a fruitful manner. I think that we can memorialize with a meal of lamb and I wouldn't dream to think the partaking of lamb on Pesach to be innapproriate, there isn't even a consensus on that among the Yahudim. The Ashkanazim observe such a ban, while lamb is an important part of Sephardic and Mizrachi observance. I am not saying that I put all that much stock into the rabbinic practices, but I am just trying to illustrate a point. But this much I say...we can play word games to get what we want. We can justify impure motives through the tweeking of semantics. Keep that in mind if you consider slaughtering a kid or lamb on the 14th.

Now that I have offered my very long winded and ostentatious opinion...I humbly seek an answer to a question. The smearing of the blood on the lintel and doorposts was a one time deal. Do you think this yet another prophetic implication of Messiah? If so, how?

Yibarakhem YHWH,

Shalom82

I still have the same question visitor?

This past Passover I bought a piece of lamb from the local supermarket, and cooked it over fire. Is that cool? I also had unleavened bread with wine, and I put loads of herbs on the lamb because I didn't understand what "bitter herbs" meant.

I have been dealing with this topic on another forum, I have gotten some pretty nasty responses. Some don't even believe in the Millennium, some go as far as saying the book of Revelation was fulfilled when the previous temple was destroyed. Then there's that constant "it was a shadow of things to come and has now been fulfilled" statement that I have to try explain.

Jake,

To answer your question, I certainly do think that the smearing of blood on the lintel and doorposts is another prophetic implication of Messiah. I think either Yada or kp touched upon this themselves, but I do not remember where. If you look at the doorway, it has an upright post (two actually) and the lintel, the same as the upright pole (which I believe was more of a T than a t). This was a doorway to being saved, if you were behind that doorway, you were passed over. This is the same with the upright pole, it is a doorway as well, a doorway to everlasting life. If you are behind it, then judgement will pass over you.

I like how you mention that it was a one time deal, this fits perfectly with Yahushua's sacrifice being necessary only one time as well. His blood only need be shed and smeared on that pole one time, we simply have to accept his gift.

OK, so I gather that Shalom82 is not actually slaughtering a lamb on Passover. Is that correct? So, if this sacrifice is no longer required, why are the others?

Thanks.

Thanks kp, but regarding the necissity of the Levitical priesthood for sacrifices, Shalom82 included this information in one of his previous posts:



So, just to be clear on this point - is the actual slaughtering of a Passover lamb by each household still required or not?

Additionally, if these animail or other sacrifices point to the Messiah. What did Yahshua mean when the He said:



Not to be flippant, but what did He really mean here, "It's almost finished," "It's half finished," "It's finished until the next sacrifice?" Like kp says, aren't all of these sacrifices meant to teach us something? Are they to teach us about the ultimate sacrifice Yahshua would make for us? Isn't His sacrifice sufficient? If so, why must they continue? Am I missing something here?

The Catholics, applying their own twisted logic, will tell you that the Eucharist is a "propitiatory" sacrifice - that the "grace" of Jesus' sacrifce on Calvary is repeatedly bestowed through the Mass.

If we are to search the Scriptures for the truth and answers to our questions, how would interpret the following verses:

Well as far as I have seen through the OT, sacrifice was never used as a attonement for sin - but as a picture of what was to come... although Israel turned it into that. So the Hosea quotes and Matthew make sense, because He does not and never has desired sacrifices from us, they were for the benifit of human kind, painting a picture of what was ACTUALLY going to cover sin - the Messiah.

The reason we dont sacrifice now, is because we cant - if we just kill animals where we want, and not as he prescribed we miss the picture - and kinda desecrate the idea of what the temple is, and the priesthood and so on. Also right now we are in a kind of limbo time - everyone knows that according to a few religions "Jesus died for you". The picture of sacrifice can be evidently seen - not being able to sacrifice should make us ask why... then that makes you look... then you find Messiah and His ultimate sacrifice...

The reason we might have the sacrificial system back in the 1000 year reign ( and I say might, because im not 100% positive, but the logic makes very good sense) is like KP said - Being under Yahushua's rule for 1000 years, it would be easy to become complacent - or forgetful. The sacrificial system would be in place to remeber His sacrifice. So instead of looking forward to the sacrifice, we would be looking back at it, and remebering the amazing gift given, for people born in a time where Yahushua was their king.

Its not about the sacrifce, its about getting the picture right for either remeberance or future prophetic reverlation. That applies to every picture He paints.

At the beginning of this thread, kp wrote:



Then by this reasoning, why wouldn't we need the ultimate "picture" of the ultimate sacrifice - now and forever? Just as it states in Scripture.

I'm just trying to understand this by reasoning it out through Scripture. Thanks again for all the great contributions from everyone. It's a great discussion and very insightful. I'm learning a lot.

Again, I'd like to ask - is anyone on this list actually slaughtering a Passover lamb every year?

Hebrew 8:13 (ISR) "By saying, ‘renewed,’ He has made the first old. Now what becomes old and growing aged is near disappearing."

i'm not trying to divert from topic but I think this is still relevant to the topic. This Hebrews verse gets me. What does Paul mean by "is near disappearing?" I know this section concerns a new heart for the Israelites, something I take to happen during the Tribulation and when He appears in person. But is Paul saying "near disappearing" in regards to the Torah being fully abolished at the end of the Millennium with the creation of a new heaven and eart or did he have some time sooner in mind? To me this verse would link up with Matthew 5:17-20 of the Torah and Prophets not passing away until all is fulfilled.


I'm not, I just bought a piece of lamb this past Passover, enough just for me because I celebrated it alone.

I'm still trying to figure this whole thing out. I came across this earlier today in my reading of Yada Yahweh/Ma'sehyah, Implement of Yah:



I've also been reading Isaiah and it seems to me a theme that is constantly repeated is how Yahuweh is tired of all the animal sacrifices. For example:



Another rendering of this verse:



Again, as I continue to read, its difficult to understand the justification behind and the need for these animal sacrifices to continue during the Millenium Sabbath.