Theophilus,
I love your train of thought and the depth that you have gone to in order to have a clear and demanding question. I have always wondered the same exact thing about the limits of Yahweh, are they self imposed or just beyond our human understanding. I personally believe both, I believe that Yahweh is both limiting himself just as we limit ourselves because its not always about what we can do but how we go about doing it, I think same goes for Yahweh. And then I know that the word tells us that Yahweh's thoughts are not our own nor are his way like ours so until the day comes when we can see him in his full glory I am sure we will be asking these questions. I trust that Yahweh is omnipotent, but I don't know about the omni-loving, because I know he does not love everything, just look at the concept of door number 3.

Blessings

Thank you for taking the effort of reading my post and for sharing your insights.

I tried explaining the difference between having the power to do something while limiting that power to remain consistant with one's character in human terms. The example I choose was American military power at the end of World War II. With 50+% of the global GNP, veteran combat forces arrayed around the globe with the most capable navy, marine, and air force to include sole possession of atomic weapons and the means to deliver them at long range the US attained as close to military omnipotence as any world power ever has. What prevented America from using the awesome capability for conquest like the Axis forces that had just been defeated was the difference of character of the people and leaders of these powers.

YY has expanded on the limits of Yahuweh as few other sources have in revealling that Yahuweh bowed down to be with His creation. To do this for our benefit Yahuweh was willing to even enter timespace in a diminished manifestation in order to redeem us in that weak form and do what He would (or could?) not do without doing so. Suffer and die as the attoning passover lamb of the world.

YY also notes that Yahuweh either can not or chooses not (?) to destroy the rebellious immortal spiritual entities that rebelled against Him, but will deduce these (and the human souls who choose to attach themselves) in dimension to a lightless eternal existence in emotional anguish. I'm guessing these rebelious spiritual beings must have in at least one moment been given the choice of obeying Yahuweh or commit mutiny but that's another discussion.

Robskiwarrior, I believe that Yahuweh's love not equating to universal heaven (fellowship with Yah) for all is in large measure a recognition of the free-willed choices of individuals to live apart from Him and that justice is another characteristic of Yahuweh the necessitates the seperation or second death of such souls.

I've listened to various discussions on this topic that seem to suggest that "the LORD's justice" will mornfully cause Him to excile lost souls to the eternal equivilant of Hawaii so as not to suggest He either is cruel or coersive in his judgements. I find the three doors position addresses this from Scripture much more accurately but do struggle to determine if Yah's means of salvation and the consequences for doors #2 and #3 were limitations of power, or character? If neither, I can begin to understand the critics charge of His being not omni-loving as these conditions could seem to be arbitrary to a truly unlimited omnipotent being able to do anything concievable in any manner imaginable without restraint yet choosing to not prevent an undesirable outcome for his creations.

Until greater revelation comes, as Tiffany says, we must remeber that His thoughts are higher and not our thoughts.

A very though-provoking string, my friends. Thanks, Theophilus, for bringing this up.

I think the key to the whole "omni" thing is that Yahweh cannot be what He is not. He can't be both of two mutually exclusive alternatives. He cannot personify chaos, confusion, contradiction, or nonsense. He cannot act out of character. So the key to demystifying the apparent gaps in God's omnicience, omnipotence, omnipresence, and so on, is to identify His character traits. These are revealed by what He says about Himself, what He has done, and most intriguingly, what He has told us to do---that is, what He considers to be good. So we learn first and foremost that Yahweh is "holy," that is, set apart from His creation, unique and perfect, and rendered unable by this nature to coexist with sin.

Next we are told that "God is love." And how does He define that? "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." (I Corinthians 13:4-8)

If love is patient, then we know why God doesn't squash us like bugs the first time we sin: He's giving us time to find Him. If it's kind, we know that Yahweh doesn't wish to harm anyone. If it does not envy, we can deduce that He lacks nothing---He can't be bought off. If love isn't proud or arrogant, we know for certain Yahweh isn't insecure---He knows Who He is and what He can do. If love doesn't behave rudely, we can understand why Yahweh doesn't throw His weight around---He (irrationally, perhaps) cares what we think. If love does not seek it's own, then it's objective is to benefit others. Furthermore, we are being told that Yahweh will not force His will upon us. Choice is our prerogative.

If love is not provoked, we know God will unfold his plan of redemption according to His own schedule, unshaken and unimpressed by the atrocities we commit along the way. If love thinks no evil and doesn't rejoice in iniquity, we are being assured that God will not stoop to our level, no matter how much we deserve it. But if love rejoices in the truth, it means that Yahweh will never lie to us. If it bears, believes, and hopes all things, we are being given the reason why justice plays second fiddle to mercy in God's economy. When love endures all things, we're given insight into how an omnipotent God could voluntarily shed glory, power, and even dimensions to sacrifice Himself on our behalf. And finally, if love never fails, then we can rest assured that the outworking of Yahweh's character---holiness and love---will achieve the result He ordained from the foundation of the world: our fellowship with Him for eternity.

So how does all of this shed light on the question of what limits Yahweh? On the touchy issue of "universal love," we observe that God provided all the love we need up front. But He (ever in character) lets us decide what to do with His love---embrace it, ignore it, or reject it. Is God omnipresent? Yes, with the caveat that our choice is allowed to overrule even this. He therefore has created a "place" where He Himself chooses not to go, out of respect for our right to choose to reject His love. Is God omnipotent? Only insofar as our right to choose is not abridged: He cannot and will not violate His own character. We need to comprehend, however, that any limitation to Yahweh's power is self-imposed.

Robskiwarrior writes, "surely door number 3 is a need for justice rather than a lack of love." I think maybe it's neither. Though "love rejoices in truth," and truth is closely akin to justice, I don't think God is particularly interested in dispensing justice. Yes, in His world, justice will happen, but it's the effect, not the cause. Door number 3---conscious emotional and spiritual torment for eternity---is merely the result of someone choosing to go there. Yahweh is "not willing that any should perish," but as we read, "love seeks not its own."

kp

Precisely, Theo. Yahweh's "limitations" are of necessity self imposed---they are the result of perfect order and logic, not the result of imperfection or inadequacy. As I said, God cannot be both of two mutually exclusive alternatives---nonsense.

But I must clarify something. A life that leads to desolation and lifelessness is characterized by one's lack of choice, not of "choosing to live apart from His love." The choices (or not) that define our eternal destinies have to do with forming relationships---with Yahweh, satan, or nobody at all. Yes, you can choose not to make a choice, but that doesn't lead to a familial relationship with any spiritual entity. But consequences? The default is the condemnation that leads to nothingness. Remember what Yahshua told Nicodemus: "He who believes in [the Son] is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God." (John 3:18) We start off condemned (not a great translation. It's krino: separated out, decided, judged, evaluated). From there, we must choose to embrace eternal life, either with Yahweh, or with satan. That is, if we choose anything at all.

kp

Theo, that was added in the most recent update to that chapter, but it expands upon something that Yada said either elsewhere, or in the same spot of a previous version of said chapter. It certainly does clarify things, and makes it easier to understand Yahuweh's nature.

I'll likely extend this thought to the Love requires Choice section unless another is more appropriate but I wonder if the reason Yah will not destroy a spiritual being even one fallen from Him and in rebellion to Him is that it does serve a purpose in their being in that state and they lack the capacity in some way to choose their own will in this regards?

I certainly agree that one's character and nature is a self limiting impostion of one's otherwise less restricted potential actions or in Yah's case truly unlimited potential action.

What Yada wrote about limitations of omni presence and knowledge/experience seems to me to be consistant with my understanding of Scripture compared to the omni nature in those respects commonly taught.

On a related thought I sometimes question what is vast as opposed to infinite. For example, time-space as we know it goes back eons, but from what we can tell in scripture and in science had a beginning a finite point in the distant past. The material universe is vast, but if our understanding is correct began as a sigularity that has been streched out "like a scroll" to the vastness we observe each night. If I understand the descriptions black holes are sometimes described as possessing inifinite gravity. If I understand it, the hole posseses the same mass it had as a star but has collapsed to an extremely small point that effects time space to a limited distance from that point.

My point being that Yahweh desribes Himself as infinite in some attributes Yada mentions and which I agree with, but don't see these nesessarily meaning He or the creation is therefore inifinite in other repsects even when vastness difficult to comprehend does apply.