Shalom ah, and ahot (brothers and sisters),

I trust you all had a wonderful Ishtar/Ashtoreth/Estarte celebration on SUN-day (wink). Of course I am kidding, but in light of the coming Pesach, I thought I would open the discussion up to something Yada addressed in Yada Yahweh. First, let me say that I think Yada’s work is excellent, and I am not here to shoot down his findings.

That said, I am not so sure that Yahshua was not crucified on what we would describe as a cross. The Jehovah's Witnesses also argue that He was crucified on a stake, because the "cross" is a pagan symbol. Please consider the following:


1.) We also need to consider that we know quite a bit about 1st century Roman crucifixion and most of what we find (archeologically speaking) does indicate that there was an upright post and a cross beam used by the Romans of that time. Often times they would use a tree and nail a beam to it.

2.) Wouldn't it make sense that He was crucified on a pagan cross considering the Romans were (and still are) a pagan culture?

3.) The other issue is what takes place during crucifixion. Typically the victim dies (often after many days) of asphyxiation (suffocation). This is due to the fact that the arms are outstretched and the torso begins to sag, which makes taking a breath very difficult. The victim will often prolong the agony by pushing up with his feet to raise his torso, but eventually he will become exhausted and will suffocate due to his inability to hold himself up and take a breath. If the desired result is a quicker death, the guard will break the legs of the victim so that he can no longer push himself up, so he would die in a matter of minutes. Of course Yahshua had already given up His spirit, so there was no need to break his legs Yochanan 19:36 (fulfilling Exo 12:46, Num 9:12, and Psalm 34:20). So, in order for this to happen, the arms of the victim must be stretched out to the sides.

4.) Another point of interest is the last letter of the Phoenician and Paleo Hebrew Aleph-Beit (alpha bet) is Tav (or Taw). In Hebrew, each letter/character also provides a picture or symbol. For example, the Aleph is the sign of the bull or ox, and represents strength. The Tav (where we derive our letter T) is the form of a cross. The representation assigned to the Tav is that it is the sign of the covenant. Yahshua said He was The Aleph and the Tav and the covenant was in His blood.

5.) Lastly there is a very interesting study done by Dr. Chuck Missler (of khouse.com) which details the camp of Yisra-El. YaHWeH gave them specific instructions on how they were to set up the camp. When we take a look at the configuration, it seems to indicate that YaHWeH is saying that His sign/covenant/Tav would indeed be a cross.

http://ldolphin.org/camp.html


Now, I would agree with the assertion that the scriptures do not use the term "cross". The term used in the Greek is starous which does mean stake. On a side note, I am also not so sure that the Byzantine and Alexandria Greek manuscripts are our earliest. There is strong evidence for the primacy of the Aramaic Pishetta… but that is another discussion.

In any case, could it be that the starous/upright pole/pillar that Yahshua hung on was indeed in the shape of what we would describe as a cross?

Just one of the issues I address above is not enough to "build doctrine on" but when you look at all of them (esp. the Tav symbolism). Could it be that the staurous was in the form of a cross?

Don't get me wrong, I hate the religious traditions and the lies that we have inherited. I just want to remain faithful to the truth, and not let my distain for religious tradition cloud my objectivity.

Of course, at the end of the day all that matters is what YaHWeH did so that we could have life.

I believe that I have much to learn. I look forward to your opinions, and further discussion.. :)



Shalom U'vracha,
Garrett-

I'm pretty sure Icy (and Yada) are right on this one, Garrett. Put yourself in the shoes of the Romans, who crucified thousands of people. They were a practical and efficient people: do you really think they went to all the trouble of making cross-shaped wooden structures every time they wanted to publicly execute someone? No. The "stauros" (a Greek word which is translated "cross" but actually means "upright stake") would have been left in place from one execution to the next. The prisoner would carry only the crosspiece (called in Latin the patibulum) to the place of execution. There his outstretched arms would be either tied or nailed to it, and it would then be hoisted to the top of the already standing stauros. Then the feet would be similarly affixed to the stake. This (as you noted) is where the really diabolical aspect of crucifixion comes into play. Whether his feet were nailed or tied to the stauros, there was always some way for the victim to push up with his legs in order to get a breath. Hanging from his arms alone, the victim could die in fifteen minutes without this feature; with it, he could (if he chose breathing in agony over an excruciating death) last for as long as two or three days, until exhaustion overcame the will to live.

By the way, although the Israelites in the wilderness were assigned camping positions according to the four cardinal compass directions, their encampment would hardly have looked like a cross. For instance, the tribes camped on the "east" side of the tabernacle, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun, are described as being "next" to each other. (See Numbers 2:5 etc.)

kp

Shalom Achim V'achiot sheli,

I think we are crossing over into the realm of minuitae that issue after issue plinks away at the faith. And that is not to be rude but I have seen people wrap themselves around such insignificant issues and just go absolutely bonkers or go lukewarm...or rather luke cool. But to answer it simply as possible I don't think it's hard to imagine the sagging body in the form of a Y with the head of course being in the crotch of the Y to realize that the plaque could have been nailed or attached right to the "lintel" over the head of the Messiah or for that matter any enemy of the Roman State. I also don't think it is a stretch to think that the Romans being a society that prided itself on it's mechanism of Justice and it's law codexes and of course it's practicality and efficiency would have had some sort of implement on the top of the upright stake (stauros) to hold such certificates. Honestly, I don't think that we can rule out a + shape...though I think that the T shape makes more sense. But in the end what does that really prove? Because it is a + shape rather than a T shape we should give it reverence or make it a symbol of idolatry? When we know the history of the cross in Paganism and the rather ugly connotations of the intersection in those systems and realize what YHWH has given us to focus on and revere....symbols like the Menorah...we have our answer. I have a deep faith that YHWH allows to be vulgar what is not His. I am sure you have all seen the "bling" crosses on rap stars, singers, actors and actresses....pieces of Gawdy regalia or even tasteful fashion evidenced in a world that is concerned with who's sleeping with who, who's cheating on who, who's taking this drug, who's crashed their car through a Kinko's, who's naked, who's sexy, who's in, who's out????...blah...blah...blah. The days of YHWH have profound joy to be sure...but intermingled with that joy is a profound gravity...sometimes even sadness...the complex nuances that allow us to grow and mature and never stagnate....rather than Christmas and Easter...Christ is born....Christ is risen...have at it children...as I indicate days handed over completely to the carnal and immature desires of children...conformed to their senses...instead of lovingly and gradually forcing them to reckon with and mature in the revelation that the Creator has given us. We all know how easy the playthings of Christendom are profaned...I don't believe for a second I need to go into that. I can drive past strip joints on Highway 22 decked out in Christmas trimmings...and I think we can be honest enough that we have all encountered at least once in our lives the scantilly clad or sexilly dressed Santa's little helper...with the Frigian Cap and the come hither look...
Do we have Passover Pete or the Yom Kippur Kangaroo? I am sure their has been a pop cultural profaning of the symbols and times of YHWH somewhere in the world...but I have never seen any examples and I think we can all agree they are few and far between. He is in the process of making such things such a stench in our noses that we will have no choice other than to come out from them or admit our acceptance of fornication and outright Paganish practice. Now I have gone and rambled....sorry.

Yibarakhem YHWH

Shalom

Once again, I thank you all for your input. I agree that the term cross was never used (regardless of the shape of the pole or pillar). So I think all of the replies have helped in addressing the issue. I had never considered Ron's findings (regarding the posting of the victim's crimes). This adds a new perspective, and seems to make sense.

I also appreciate Shalom82's post. You are right, its not about the instrument, and it is important not to get caught up in the "minutiae" as you put it. I am simply seeking as much truth as I can get my hands on. This also comes in handy when folks come to my front door trying to trip me up and try and make me question other issues of greater importance. The JW's like to attack little details in an effort to get people to question the truth of the scriptures.

Todah Rabbah to y'all.
Garrett-

You can see some of the material relating to Ron Wyatt's discovery on YouTube. Just do a search for: "Ark of the Covnenat." There used to be a 27 part series there on the subject.

I combined the clips and uploaded it to the "YY Study Group" room on Paltalk. My main computer is down and I am unable to access PalTalk, but maybe one of the other room admins can open the room and show it to you.

Shalom All,

My head is still spinning in the midst of all the events that are happening in Malaysia since the general elections that shook the country to the foundations. And the Fitna video by Geert is also adding more heat to discussions among a people not really ready to discuss much on a mature level.

Now, I sometimes wonder whether the people should be informed about these things and the much more that we already know, because they are not really spiritually able or willing to listen. I wonder if they can grasp the crux of the messages, or whether they shall turn away in disbelief because of their immaturity and preconditioning. For instance, how does one tell the tribal natives of Papua New Guinea that the Creator of the universe came as a man 2,000 years ago and shall come again soon to save the world from self-destruction? And that much of the changes over the past two millenia done in His "name" was not really done in His real name and authority? In all reality, the tribal natives of PNG are not different from the people of other nations irrespective of their degree of economic development, if they are unwilling to listen closely to the message!

So when we discuss whether our MessiYah was put on a stake or a cross they really will not understand the real difference as they will only know that He was killed in public after being tortured. When we tell them that He was resurrected and is now living but in another form, they may relate it to reincarnation not realising the true nature of the new being. When we tell them that if we believe in Him and do as He says that we can also be like Him this would astound them and anyone else!

The finesse that we observe on this site discussing minutiae is lost on almost everyone else! The basic message that we should take to the masses is that Salvation is at hand and that the Kingdom of Yahweh is near. And as we spread this message, some will catch upon some Truth and commit themselves to enjoin themselves to Yahweh's Ekklesia. Still others may hear only parts of the message and misunderstand the rest, and yet take it upon themselves to become the messenger hence resulting in false "prophets" like Ms White and the others.

Did Yahweh reveal valuable evidence to someone who followed a false prophet? He does not withhold the Truth from those who truly seek it, but He would not deny the person from misunderstanding it! That is a reason why Yahushua spoke in parables. Was He denying the masses? Scripture says that only those whom He has called can come to Him, and we then summarily assume that all people are called but not all want to respond positively hence our struggles with world events and our search for Truth. Can we deny others the Truth or deny that Truth can come from outside of the Ekklesia? I came to this site brimming with knowledge and experiences in the Catholic Church and the Worldwide Church of God, and I had learnt much from them. The thing now is not whether the Truth is in them but whether the Truth is in us, and our identity as members of the Ekklesia. This is where the challenge lies, in determining who we are and where other Qodeshim are for we are called to love each other just as He loves us. And part of our task in spreading the good news is to bring more people who have been called to the Truth and to discover their potential as Family members.

Will we subsequently be a formal organisation like other congregations? I doubt it but I won't deny the possibility. As we congregate in little groups we may start to attract more people and before we know it we shall have a semblance of an organisation, especially when it comes to observing the Miqra as some members shall take more responsibility to help organise events. The main difference is that there shall be no head other than Yahushua! No reverence of positions of office, but proper and due respect for each Qodeshim. No need for titles, but a realisation that all tasks are in servitude of the Ekklesia and for Yahweh. Since He died for us, we shall all "die" to each other and live for each other.

Historically, it may be proven that the Roman stake may have been already erected and that each crucified person was nailed or tied to a crossbeam which was hoisted upon the top of the stake in a groove, thus confirming Yada's discourse on the full meaning of stauros. (I think that at some time in the past people were left hanging in trees by their hands to die a slow death. The Romans made it an execution method and 'refined" it as a public spectacle using stakes.) Whether it was a cross or a stake, it is almost moot other than to acknowledge the full extent of Yahweh's plan of redemption and to give full and proper respect to the little details that lead to Him and His shedding of blood for our sins.

Peace Everyone,

My Yahuweh The All-Powerful Mighty One, our Dad, strengthen you all in his Truth, and Wisdom. Bolster you in confidence to speak boldly The Glad Tidings of his Kingdom. Bitnet always manages to shine brightly in the Wisdom of our Dad, and I ask in the name of the Word Yahushua that he continue to be blessed in Wisdom and insight in the knowledge of Yahuweh. Please Dad grant me this.

Loving Kindness from your brother,
BiynaYahu

see
online resources for proof/simple description/other
that Yeshua had to be hung on a living tree in order to fulfill all Scripture and Prophecy. Simple.
(also, almost no one knows Yeshua was [also] stoned; It Is Written)