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Offline Joe  
#1 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:45:19 AM(UTC)
Joe
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Location: Virginia

Why is there such a tremendous amount of information about the timing of His return in scripture, if we aren't supposed to know the date nor the hour?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 8:22:39 AM(UTC)
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dunno - its crazy isnt it. :)
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Offline Jeannie  
#3 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 2:01:15 PM(UTC)
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I love that we have a time line as it makes perfect sense. Everything else in the Scriptures is spelled to the letter and the day!!
Jeannie
Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2007 2:19:58 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
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Location: Palmyra, VA

Hi, Guys (and Jeannie)... If you haven't already, you may want to check out the "Chronology" Appendix to Future History. It addresses the very question Joe raised. You can find it here.

http://www.futuretruth.net/Future_History_Appendix_Chronology.Prophecy

The short answer: It's there because He wants us to know.

kp

Edited by user Tuesday, August 7, 2007 9:01:57 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Ruchamah  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 9:15:44 AM(UTC)
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Well Joe, if you look at the passages in the Gospels that say, *no one knows the day or the hour*, their context is the New Heavens and New Earth, not the onset of the Kingdom.

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline rs  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 11:16:34 AM(UTC)
rs
Joined: 7/31/2007(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Dove Canyon, CA

Hi,

I don't think this is the right place to post this but one thing I've been looking at historically are the antecedents to the Protestant Reformation and how we might recognize the Set Apart Spirit first moving after the Dark Ages. I think this might help buttress a bit the importance of the 1000 A.D. timeframe.

In the 1100's, we first see a group forming under Peter Waldo (Waldensisans) who adhered to the idea that one cannot serve 2 masters, both God and Mammon. The Waldensian movement was characterized by lay preaching, voluntary poverty and a life of good works. They were persecuted aggressively by the RCC. Later in the 14th C. under John Wycliffe, the Lollards came into being with a similar approach with similar results.

With my limited study so far, it seems like the Spirit re-engaged in the early years of the 2nd millenium A.D. and the first signs of it were groups that hearkened back or repented and returned to the framework of the early church with the one common thread being a non-professional clergy.
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 1:36:48 PM(UTC)
kp
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Ruchamah, I'm afraid I've got to disagree with you. In both Matthew 25 and Mark 13, the statement is made as an introduction to a warning about the unexpectedness of the harvest (the rapture), not as a corollary to the remark that precedes it ("heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not"). The passing away of the heavens and the earth in this context is, though true, not the point, nor the subject. It is there to provide an adequate contrast to the permanence of God's Word.

Ultimately, the "No one knows..." statement is part of the answer to the disciples' initial question: "When will all this stuff happen?" What stuff? The things Yahshua just spent the whole chapter describing, the events leading up to the inauguration of His millennial kingdom. The "starting bell" of that whole process is the rapture, and that's the one event no one will see coming. (The word "know" is from the Greek verb eido, not ginosko---implying we won't perceive it's arrival ahead of time, even though some of us might "know" all about it.) Like the flood of Noah's day, there's no reason the whole world can't "know" it's coming, and even know the approximate timing. (Methuselah's name---muth (death) + shelach (to send or bring)---means "His death shall bring it," and indeed, at the ripe old age of 969, he died the very year of the flood.) But until the raindrops starting pelting them, nobody perceived that the prophesied flood was upon them. Same thing with the rapture.

But the new heavens and the new earth? Everybody will know when that's coming, and everybody will perceive it as it unfolds, right after the conclusion of Yahshua's thousand-year earthly reign. All you'll need is a calendar and an immortal "spiritual" body.

kp
Offline Ruchamah  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 4:42:34 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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hey KP-

I do understand your point, but it seems a bit disingenuous to say that a particular verse should go with what is AFTER it, but not with what is before it, or vice versa. I think we both are correct.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline kp  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 7:47:02 PM(UTC)
kp
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Perhaps you're right. But to my mind the context (in both Matthew and Mark) places the thought with the comments concerning the suddenness and unexpectedness of the event---in the case of Matthew, He speaks of the flood, and in Mark He connected the statement to an admonition to "watch, for you know not when the master of the house is coming." It's not a question of before vs. after; rather, it's a question of continuity of thought.

kp
Offline Ruchamah  
#10 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 5:17:15 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Should the *days of Noach* be eqwateed with the time of the Kingdom coming on earth, and all that precedes it (trib etc) or should the *days of Noach* be eqwated with the New Heavens and New Earth?

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline kp  
#11 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 6:46:21 AM(UTC)
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I'd say the former, Ruch. Matt 24:37 gives the definition: "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." He's speaking of the conditions that will prevail on earth when the Son of Man "comes" (which is a maddeningly imprecise term, but one that seems to encompass the entire Last Days process from the "budding of the fig tree" onward---definitely including both the harpazo/rapture and the coming of Yahshua in visible glory at Yom Kippurym. And what were the conditions in the days of Noah? Most significantly, that the vast majority of mankind did not know or honor Yahweh--they do not "walk with God" as Noah did. That is precisely the sad state of affairs we see about us today.

kp
Offline Ruchamah  
#12 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 7:06:20 AM(UTC)
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thanks for the reply kp!

So just what occured in the *days of Noach*? Well, the entire earth was destroyed, killing all living things except the fish in the water and the 8 souls in the ark. The world as Noach HAD known it was gone, in its place there was a new heaven (the water from the firmament had been dumped onto earth), and a new earth was before him, appearing *from the waters* much the same as in the Creation account. Is this what we are looking for in soon-coming days, prior to the establishment of the Kingdom? Will all earthly life be destroyed? I dont think so. However i think this DOES take place AFTER the Kingdom, at the end of the 1000yrs.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline kp  
#13 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 11:39:51 AM(UTC)
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I see your point, but it's pretty clear that that's not the phase of the "days of Noah" that Yahshua was talking about. In context, Matthew 24:36-42 stresses the business-as-usual lack of watchfulness that preceded the flood. The bottom line: "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." (v42) And, "Therefore, you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect." (v44) This is true of the harpazo/rapture, but not of the milestones that follow. Once the "covenant is confirmed with many" (Daniel 9) the clock is ticking. Anybody with a calendar could know beyond the shadow of a doubt that when 2,520 days have passed (i.e., seven 360-day "times") Yahshua will be reigning on the throne of earth. (Of course, if the rapture occurs before the covenant with many is confirmed, then it's extremely unlikely that anybody left on the earth will figure that out on their own.)

kp
Offline William  
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:05:17 PM(UTC)
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Two of the reasons why we won't know the day or the hour---

The Bible was written by Jews and a lot of things can be lost to us Gentiles if we do not understand the customs, language, and traditions of the Jewish people. Once you understand them, it opens up a whole new understanding of what the Bible is saying.

For example, the Church (i.e., all the born again believers) is referred to as the Bride of Christ. In Jewish tradition, once the man and woman are engaged (a much more serious commitment than present day), the man goes off to build a house for his bride. He does not tell her when he will return because it is not up to him--the house must first be inspected and approved by the groom's father. Therefore, neither the bride nor the groom know when the father (of the groom) will approve the reuniting of the bride and groom for the marital ceremony. This Jewish custom is exactly mirrored in Jesus' statements that only the Father knows the day and the hour of the Son's return.

Another interesting tidbit...although there are many trumpets in different ceramonies, Rosh Hashanah is known as the Feast of the Trumpets, the begining of the Jewish year, the Feast of the Harvest, etc. Remember--the rapture happens at the last trumpet and what a perfect time to "harvest" the believers--the Feast of the Harvest! Now, I am NOT saying that the rapture WILL occur on a Rosh Hashanah, but it is interesting that Jesus fullfilled certain prophesies EXACTLY on the day of the appropriate feast. Additionally, no one knew the "day or the hour" that Rosh Hashanah began because it is based on the begining of the New Moon cycle. There were certain officials that were tasked with determining the date of Rosh Hashanah and they could not tell the exact day and hour of the New Moon by the naked eye observing the moon--thus RH is kinda celebrated on two days "just in case." So Jesus' words that "No man knows the day or the hour" kinda plays into this tradition too--which makes me wonder if the rapture will happen on a RH (and thus fulfill yet another feast prophecy)! IF it does happen on RH, we still don't know what hour, day (of the two days), or even year it will happen--so the Lord can fullfill it on RH and it will still be a "surprise".

William
Offline kp  
#15 Posted : Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:20:04 PM(UTC)
kp
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On the contrary (sort of)... it's a sure bet that our harpazo harvest will occur on the Feast of Trumpets/Yom Teruah in some future year. The day was alternately known as Yom Hakeseh---the hidden day---in first century Judea, for reasons I explained in Future History. Therefore, when Yahshua said that no one knows the day or the hour, He was positively identifying Yom Teruah, to the exclusion of all other days in any given year. For a deeper look at the whole timing thing, please check out the "Chronology" appendix to Future History. Yada Yahweh has a lot to say about this as well; I just don't know where, precisely.

But it's an error calling that day Rosh Hashanah---the head of the year. That's a systematic error the Jews picked up from their Babylonian hosts during the captivity. The real Rosh Hashanah occurs on Abib/Nisan 1, the new moon nearest the vernal equinox---in the spring.

kp
Offline William  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:47:12 AM(UTC)
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Here is a good link to the history and customs of Rosh Hashanah and what kp is talking about:

http://www.answers.com/topic/rosh-hashanah

kp - In stating "Rosh Hashanah", I am talking about the same fall feast that you are--I'm just using the current Jewish terminology/custom as that is all I know. We agree that we both believe the rapture will occur then. The "hidden day" refers to what I was talking about concerning the timing of the new moon and that no one knew "which" day it would be (thus the custom of celebrating RH on two days in the fall "just in case"--so we're talking the same thing, but in different verbage. The link above explains the difference between the spring new year (RH) and the fall new year (RH) for Jews.
Offline Matthew  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:21:35 AM(UTC)
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I was listening to an online Sabbath meeting the other day and the preacher was talking about the Rapture and how it will not be pre-tribulation but will happen when the Messiah returns. I notice the preacher said nothing about the feasts, their prophetic significance and the actual dates they fell on. Yahweh has put them in specific order, all being fulfilled in order and on the specific date. If the Rapture is to occur at the Messiah's return then surely the Feast of Trumpets and Feast of Atonement should be on the same day and not 10 days apart. But since they are apart then logic assumes they're not on the same day. And since Trumpets is 10 days before Atonement then Trumpets has to be fulfilled sometime before His coming.

But if Yahshua says the "date and hour is not known" and there is so much evidence giving the exact date of the Messiah's return, then the logical answer is that this verse refers to the Rapture and that it occurs pre-tribulation.

For those that do not believe the Rapture is to occur pre-trib then what do they celebrate for the Feast of Trumpets, what is their understanding of this feast and what is their excuse for the 10 day difference?

And also, if those who see it through to the end of the tribulation, if I'm not mistaken, they won't automatically receive immortal bodies when the Messiah returns but will continue to live on earth in their mortal state, until they die and receive immortal bodies. They will need to procreate, "be fruitful and multiply". And if Satan is to deceive many at the end of the Millennium then surely there must be people on earth in a mortal state, because those in their immortal state cannot sin? So it doesn't seem right that the Messiah would transform some into their immortal bodies while keeping some in their mortal bodies upon His return.

Am I right though that people in their mortal state during the Millennium will also experience death? What does it mean that there will be "a thousand years of perfect peace"?

Rapture is pre-trib!

Edited (just adding an extra bit):

Am I right in thinking that those who do not believe in the pre-tribulation Rapture believe that believers will be transformed "in a twinkling of the eye" into their immortal states? But this does not make sense because those who see it through to the end of the Tribulation will continue to live in their mortal states on earth. Therefore my conclusion is that the Rapture cannot be on the same day as the coming of the Messiah.

When I question "a thousand years of perfect peace" what I'm trying to ask is if their will be sin present? Because from the sounds of it Man will live on earth with the Messiah present. There should be far less sin, especially since the Adversary won't have any influence until the end of that time. It will be a perpetual period of Unleavened Bread, so as to speak, and righteous judging. I also assume Man will live a lot longer since living by the Torah and in a world with far less sin, maybe even achieving the ages of the patriarchs.

And one more question: from Scripture we find the Messiah's return is 40 Yowbel (+-2000 yrs) from His resurrection, but it just seems strange that the Feast of Atonement (on His second coming and Israel's mass repentance and recognition of their Messiah) is celebrated on 10 Tishri whereas His resurrection (Feast of First Fruits) occurs on 16 Abib, a couple of months difference. Anyone care to summarize the maths for me?

Edit:
Another thought just crossed my mind: will raptured saints leave their physical bodies behind, as in just our spirits being taken, or will our bodies completely disappear and be transformed into immortal bodies? I've not heard anybody mention this before as everyone assumes it will be a complete disappearance. I gather a complete disappearance simply because Enoch and Elijah were simply no more (though Elijah was taken in dramatic fashion), so I assume the same for the raptured saints.

Edited by user Sunday, November 4, 2007 1:57:15 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kp  
#18 Posted : Saturday, November 24, 2007 5:50:15 AM(UTC)
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Matthew, you've brought up some good questions there. I apologize for missing your post way back when. Better late than never; maybe I can shed some light...

You are correct in perceiving that the Millennium will be populated by immortals (raptured people) and mortals (those "Laodiceans" and repentant children of Israel who came to faith after the rapture and remained alive until the end of the Tribulation). Because they are "mortal," sin and death will still be possible. Indeed, their offspring (and I believe there will eventually be billions) will all face the same choice we do today: reciprocate God's love, or reject Him. With Satan locked up and Yahshua on the throne, there will be no logical reason to reject Him, but they're human after all---some will. Meanwhile, we raptured immortals will function as mentors and judges on behalf of the mortal population. This implies that the overt and ubiquitous sin culture that oppresses us today will never again become an institutional factor in the bad choices of mortal man. Their choices, good or bad, will be individual decisions, not culturally driven phenomena. "A thousand years of perfect peace" doesn't necessarily translate into the absense of death. Rather, it means that unlike today, no one will be prevented from choosing Yahweh, for the simple reason that those who would subjugate them will not be given a free hand. Their sins will be met with swift and decisive judgment, and the damage they cause in this world will not be allowed to build and compound itself. Perfect peace requires justice, and justice sometimes requires the death penalty. But in general, life under Yahshua's rule will result in vastly increased lifespans.

Your reasoning as to why the rapture cannot occur at the same time as the Messiah's return in glory seems perfectly sound. Of course, there are many evidences beyond this that lead to the same conclusion. By the way, when Yahshua says "No one knows the day or the hour," the word translated "know" isn't the greek Ginosko---to have cognitive or experiential knowledge of something. It's derived from eido, better translated "to perceive." All our Savior is saying is that when He raptures His people, we won't see it (or Him) coming. There will be no signs, no warning, no "pre-shocks." One minute we'll be here; the next we won't. This is in distinct contrast to Messiah's final advent, when every eye will see Him, and the unrepentant will mourn and call for the rocks to fall upon them, to hide them from His face.

As far as the days of the successive miqrym are concerned, there is no particular reason any two of them have to be fulfilled in the same year, at least as far as the Levitical structure of God's calendar is concerned. Example: even though the first three were fulfilled on three successive days in the year 33, there is no reason the Feast of Weeks had to be fulfilled that same year---even though it was. As far as the three miqrym left to go, the internal evidence seems to suggest that the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabnernacles will fall within the same year, but there's no reason whatsoever to suppose that the Feast of Trumpets must fall within that same year. In fact, the text seems to require that Trumpets and Tabernacles will both fall on natural Sabbaths (as did the Feast of Unleavened Bread, but not Passover, Firstfruits, or Weeks)---an eventuality that would rule out fulfillment of all three within a single year.

And finally, if historical precedent has anything to say about it (and I think it does), our bodies will vanish without a trace and (probably) our clothes will be left behind. Which means that believers in Yahshua should always wear clean underwear on the Feast of Trumpets :-)

kp
Offline Matthew  
#19 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2007 7:38:07 AM(UTC)
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Ken, thanks for your response, your explanation was clear. It adds further light for me.

In regards to your reference about wearing clean garments I think Revelation 16:15 fits the bill perfectly: "See, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who is staying awake and guarding his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." So maybe our clothes go with and are not left behind, :-)

But jokes aside. Does word "thief" in Revelation 16:15 also link up with the use of the same word in Matthew 24:43 "And know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into"? It just seems strange that in Revelation 16 the whole chapter refers to the bowl judgments then suddenly it ends with Him saying He comes as a thief.

Concerning Trumpets happening on a Sabbath, what about Matthew 24:40-41 which says that "Then two shall be in the field, the one is taken and the one is left. Two shall be grinding at the mill, one is taken and the one is left." this implies it will be an ordinary working day, unless this refers to believers who aren't keeping the Sabbath rest? This begs the question, will all believers, regardless of obedience, be raptured? From Scripture it seems we need to be ready for the event to happen at any moment, but I always understand this as being in a steadfast relationship with Elohim, otherwise we would live in sin then at just the right moment ask for forgiveness, trying to play the joker in other words.

But the Matthew 24:36-41 passage confuses me somewhat because it mentions the people on the world during Noah's time were "took" away by the flood, then it mentions "one will be taken and the other left". Is the word "taken" in a good sense now and not a negative thing?

Matthew 24:36-41 "But concerning that day and the hour no one knows, not even the messengers of the heavens, but My Father only. And as the days of Noah, so also shall the coming of the Son of Adam be. For as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall the coming of the Son of Adam be. Then two shall be in the field, the one is taken and the one is left. Two shall be grinding at the mill, one is taken and the one is left."

This "taken" away sounds a good thing. The fact it says people were enjoying themselves at the time Noah was preparing for the event indicates that today's people will be enjoying themselves while we, the believers, prepare ourselves for His return. I don't believe during the Great Tribulation people will be enjoying themselves, especially since the earth will be going through the most dramatic period of its entire history. And the "coming of the Son of Adam" doesn't necessarily indicate He will appear at Trumpets but instead shows the first sign before the coming judgment and the eventual coming of the Son of Adam when all will see Him.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#20 Posted : Monday, November 26, 2007 2:06:39 PM(UTC)
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got a good brain there Matthew :) keep using it! - great questions. :)
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Offline kp  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:34:26 AM(UTC)
kp
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Um, okay, Matthew, let's take 'em one by one. First the "garment" thing. All jokes aside, the only garments we can keep in God's presence are the "garments of light," the "fine linen, clean and bright," the wedding garments that Yahshua himself provides for us. They're the only thing that could possibly conceal the shame of our sins. The ol' fruit of the looms ain't gonna cut it.

Rev. 16:15---the "thief" thing. Coming as it does at the end of the bowl judgments (only one to go, the "checkered flag," as it were), I'd say it's a summary statement for all of the judgments that have been described to this point, rather than something to be factored into this particular scene (the prelude to Armageddon). I think He's saying, "Watch yourself, clothe yourself in my righteousness, and none of this will befall you." On the other hand, the only people who know anything about the timing of the Tribulation milestones are we who are living and studying on this side of the rapture. Unless FH or something else that's worked out the dates stay up on the web for the following ten years after that (fat chance), the timing of all this is still going to be a big surprise to the whole world, even the neo-believers. So... "Watch!" Good advice.

Matthew 24:36-41---The "taken" thing. Swalchy nailed the heart of it: Both "takens" are referring to God's people being removed from the scene. The essence of the scene is the separation---us from them. As far as it being on the Sabbath, the Torah isn't crystal clear on that point, so I can't be dogmatic. Also, remember that the Sabbath (beginning on Friday as sundown) descends upon Jerusalem many hours before it begins in the West. Since the rapture is an instantaneous thing worldwide, we're not necessarily at an impass here. As far as your question, "Will all believers, regardless of obedience, be raptured?" is concerned, let me ask you another question: Have you ever met a 100% perfectly obedient believer? I haven't. If Yahshua is only going to take believers who are living in a perfect state of obedience, He's not going to have much company. That's why He provides the garments of light. As far as the "days of Noah" reference goes, I think He's talking about "life as usual." Routine, the daily grind, the pursuit of happiness, etc. I have a feeling that the day after the rapture, at least in countries that hosted a fair number of believers, life will never again seem secure---even if the Tribulation were to take decades longer to roll around.

One thing's for sure. Robski was right. You really keep a guy on his toes, Matthew. Good insights.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:00:01 AM(UTC)
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Ken, thanks again for the clarification.

Notice how I joked about the Rev 16:15 verse concerning clothes, even though I knew it was to do with the covering provided by Yahshua it still amazes me how Jews, and Christians alike, even me, can take some verses completely out of context and come to an incorrect interpretation. A bit like the "do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk" scenario! Even I got caught by that no dairy and meat together for a day or two until I received a response to my question on this forum. I always remind myself to read in context as so many verses are misinterpreted because of failing to read in context.

I like your explanation of the Rev. 16:15!

I seemed to forget about the Sabbath timing. When Jerusalem starts the Sabbath day at evening, it's still Friday early afternoon where I'm at. When you said that, I realised that I had actually come across that before somewhere, probably your book. So I guess I can be "out in the field" doing the daily grind when the Rapture occurs.

To answer your question "Have you ever met a 100% perfectly obedient believer?", my answer is "No, I haven't", but I have met some with horribly wrong doctrinal beliefs, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, etc. So to add more to my original question, even though their doctrine is horribly wrong, won't their belief in Yahshua's salvation earn them a Rapture passport? If Catholics get "taken" then the Catholic Church won't have much effect in the last days as they would have lost most of their support. Then to add more: What about Matthew 25, concerning the foolish virgins, the talent keepers and the separation of the sheep and the goats, is this chapter referring to those who believe after the Rapture or more do with those who died before it, or both? Because from my understanding this passage refers to believers who accepted the Messiah but then never followed through with obedience. And we know that the Raptured are saved but won't be judged, in the negative sense.

But then from reading Matthew 25 and other passages we find that there is a limit to Yahweh's salvation, which includes turning ones back, continuing in disobedience, leading others astray, etc. I gather this is where it comes down to a man's heart and his level of understanding, and only Yahweh knows the heart of a man.

Edit (just adding some extra bits):

I have just come across something that got me questioning. Matthew 25:31 says "And when the Son of Adam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on His throne of esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from he goats." And Matthew 25:46 says "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life." Does this refer to 5 days of judgment between Atonement and Tabernacles immediately after the Tribulation, or is it linked to the final Great White Throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-12 which says "And I saw a great white throne and Him who was sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to their works."?

And concerning who will be Raptured: Technically, those who teach, unknowingly, false doctrine in church are effectively leading others astray. Will these be Raptured too? From my understanding of Matthew 5:19 shows that there is a level of grace when teaching falsely, at least unknowingly. Matthew 5:19 "Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men to do so, shall be least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be great in the reign of the heavens."

Edited by user Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:37:11 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kp  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:41:20 AM(UTC)
kp
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Matthew, although it's not my place to judge hearts, as far as I can tell (based on their "horribly wrong doctrine," as you put it) JWs and Mormons don't actually have a "belief in Yahshua's salvation." Theirs is a religion of works, period. Although they use some of the right words, the meanings they assign to them have been twisted into something unrecognizable by Biblical standards. They haven't got a prayer of being included in the rapture. Catholic doctrine is just as bad, but there are nominal Catholics (very few) who ignore or deny their church's error and maintain a simple faith in Yahshua's grace. But the vast majority buy into the papal bull (so to speak) and disqualify themselves from a relationship with Yahweh in the process. The vast majority of practicing Catholics will be left behind. In short, it's not what you do (or don't do), but Who you know. It's not your religion, but your relationship with Yahweh that counts.

The three illustrations of Matthew 25 teach three different truths, concerning three different groups. The ten virgins tells how Philadelphia will be raptured while Laodicea will be left behind (Revelation 3). The key is: oil represents the Holy Spirit---either She is dwelling within you, lighting your life, or you're still in the dark. Note that the five foolish virgins, however, can still buy oil, just not while the party is going on---that is, the door of salvation remains open to the Laodiceans until the Millennium commences, but they will not come to faith until after the rapture. This tardiness in belief is precisely what defines them as Laodiceans. I covered all of this stuff in Future History by the way. I know it's long, but maybe you ought to read it.

The parable of the talents speaks of the rewards (or lack therof) that will be received by believers at the "Bema" or Judgment Seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation, and everything to do with God's recognition of our faithfulness. Note that all three servants served the same Master, but some did well and some acted like lazy idiots.

The last illustration, the sheep and goats, describes the mortal population still living at the end of the Tribulation (few as they might be). Some will be counted worthy to enter the Kingdom, and some will be summarily slain. The interesting, terrifying thing here is that one's "doctrinal position" has nothing to do with one's worthiness at this point, for the simple reason that the knowledge of Yahweh's grace has been forcibly suppressed in the world for years by this time. Nobody has a doctrinal position. Rather, one's beliefs are judged simply by their actions---did they follow their consciences; did they do what they knew in their hearts to be right, even if it put them in danger to do so?

Finally, the only "limit to Yahweh's salvation" is the one that He imposed upon Himself from the very beginning. He made it our prerogative to choose Him or reject Him. He won't force us to love Him. It's up to us. He paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world, but He won't force anyone to walk out of the prison doors He opened up for us. Incredibly, many will choose to stay and rot there.

kp
Offline Matthew  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:12:28 AM(UTC)
Matthew
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kp wrote:
It's not your religion, but your relationship with Yahweh that counts.


I agree! Just gotta keep reminding myself that it's all about our relationship with Yahweh, and that I must constantly keep it in check.

kp wrote:
I covered all of this stuff in Future History by the way. I know it's long, but maybe you ought to read it.


I did read it, just long ago, or what feels like long ago, more than year ago. And when I read it the first time I flew through it as I was so amazed by it. I do intend to read it again more thoroughly once I have completed TOM and YY.

kp wrote:
Finally, the only "limit to Yahweh's salvation" is the one that He imposed upon Himself from the very beginning. He made it our prerogative to choose Him or reject Him.


I agree! It's not that He has a limit, but rather it's our choice.

Thanks for the Matthew 25 description in regards to the churches described in Revelation. I recall it being discussed in FH, I will have to go back there and reread.
Offline Matthew  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, December 4, 2007 12:40:43 PM(UTC)
Matthew
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Is there any significance of the 10 day difference between 1 Tishri (Taruw’ah/Trumpets) and 10 Tishri (Yom Kippur/Atonement)?
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