 Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120
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Shalom,
I was wondering where to put this post and since it is an enquiry of sorts, I decided that this is the place...
The general elections in the USA and Malaysia is coming up soon. As citizens of the Kingdom of Yahweh, what is our responsibility towards the election of a government on earth today? If the current government in your own country is deemed corrupt and unfair in its dealings, should you vote to change the government? (If it is Hobson's choice, voting would not matter much, would it?) And if it is a good government, then would it be prudent to vote to keep it?
What Scripture can we look to regarding this? Are we rendering unto Caesar by deciding who Caesar is? As we remember the Hebrews who shunned Yahweh in favour of an earthly king, do we still want to vote for a human government? Would spoilt votes send another message or simply get lost among the thousands of others? Would voting be seen as "casting lots" in the sense of divining? I think not but there seems to be some parallels as it would impact the future.
Well, I'll leave it to you kind folks to shed some light on this. |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120
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Hello Swalchy,
Malaysia just had its' General Elections and I voted. We almost changed the government! Well, we did in four states and broke the 91% dominance of the ruling National Coalition in Parliament so that they cannot change laws on their whim! The people feel a lot better now that they have voted in some opposition whom they hope will raise the bar and reduce the impact of subtle and blatant Islamisation of the country. That said, among the opposition is an Islamic party that also rose with the secular parties. Funny thing is that this relationship is thought to be able to work in Malaysia. Malaysia is truly unique in this aspect. We have a minority non-Muslim population living in a largely Muslim-dominated country practicing race-based politics and we all get along together reasonable well without tearing out each other's throats. Differences of opinions abound but the people do respect each other and mingle with each other and keep their religious beliefs to themselves while chasing their daily meal. However, since the fundamental Islamic party has taken root in some states, we are waiting to see how far they are going to push their Islamisation of the country including the Sharia law. Perhaps in time we may end up with a two-party system -- Islamic and Secular. But that's that for now and we'll see what happens.
Shalom Aleichem! |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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 Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma
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I don't believe the early ekklesia voted within Yahweh's Plan. (I think they didn't ever vote in obedience to Yahweh. They started voting as the enemy, the wolves and the many 'other thans', got it started).
Voting in the you ess aye has resulted in 1000 abortions or more each week, hundreds of thousands of citizens of all ages being made sick by the leaders, or led to the slaughter in a stupid battle. And laws that oppress the poor, rob the widow and orphan of food and shelter, and prevent others by fear or intimidation or rationalization from helping the poor.
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 Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC) Posts: 544  Thanks: 4 times
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Interesting question Bitnet. I' suspect that all earthly governments being composed of fallen humans are corrupt to greater or lesser degrees. I don't know that we have a Scriptural commandment to vote and don't think we should substitute our trust and reliance upon Yahweh with the same for governement. With that provision, I would think voting could, like paying taxes be regarded as rendering unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's. I think voting differs from paying taxes in that the former is a civic right (at least in a functioning representative republic) while paying taxes is usually an obligation.
If you are fortunate enough to have the right to vote, I'm not sure why one would opt not use that right and then criticize the government they left others to vote in, unless their conscience regarded voting as idolotry. For my part I do vote but recognize the limitations of those I vote for and recognize that my vote is only significantly impactful in the most local of races and ballot initiatives as my state leans heavily in one direction.
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Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma
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suppose a parents son had the 'right' , given by the local neighborhood boys, to vote on what they agreed was right or wrong for everyone in the hood.
whatever the neighborhood association said went - by vote of course - for everybody. If the boys of the neighborhood voted it was okay to eat pork, then everyone would have to go along with it or face expulsion. Everyone devoted to Yahweh would be expelled of course, for they would never eat pork, but after all 'majority rules' ! BUNK! In society, even that itself is a lie, but often repeated one. There are so few devoted to Yahweh's Rule and Sovereignty, they have no majority in any society, not that that matters - their kingdom is not of this world which is soon passing.
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 Joined: 1/8/2008(UTC)
Posts: 356
Location: Fresno, CA
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 2 post(s)
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Romans 13
Submit to Government
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
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 Joined: 6/29/2007(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: orange county, CA
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Throwing out Romans 13:1 as a single verse takes away from the full chapter message and allows for misguided interpretations. If that verse is correct in and of itself that would mean that if you were a German under Hitler then it would be just fine to persecute the Jews since the Laws not only allowed it but forbid you from providing food clothing shelter etc..
Romans 13 is not the 11th commandment, it is advice for keeping a clear conscience and avoiding conflict with government.
Using strictly Romans 13:1 then an Islamic country which holds to a strict interpretation of Islamic law as it's foundation would be a governing authority appointed by God and you would have to kill Christians and Jews wherever you may find them as outlined numerous times in the Koran.
not likely
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Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC) Posts: 544 Thanks: 4 times
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Yahshuaslavejeff wrote:suppose a parents son had the 'right' , given by the local neighborhood boys, to vote on what they agreed was right or wrong for everyone in the hood.
whatever the neighborhood association said went - by vote of course - for everybody. If the boys of the neighborhood voted it was okay to eat pork, then everyone would have to go along with it or face expulsion. Everyone devoted to Yahweh would be expelled of course, for they would never eat pork, but after all 'majority rules' ! BUNK! In society, even that itself is a lie, but often repeated one. There are so few devoted to Yahweh's Rule and Sovereignty, they have no majority in any society, not that that matters - their kingdom is not of this world which is soon passing. Do we agree that what a government deems lawfull, does not equate with what is just in Yahweh's sight? In your example, I think we'd prefer to be expelled from the hood's majority than compromise our convictions with respect to doing what we understamd our Father has told us is unclean. If the hood's majority deemed that we could not criminalize the eating of pork nor they to criminalize not eating pork, then each person in the hood is free to eat pork or not eat pork based on their own convictions. Do you feel that government is compelling you to violate Yahweh's instructions or face sanctions?
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Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma
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Hmmm, Let's see....
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Legally, almost any doctor, licensed by the state, can murder as often as they want to (people of any age), as long as their 'procedure' or drug is approved by the ama.... without any worry of being prosecuted on earth.
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Legally, anyone who heals men, women or children in any way not approved by the ama is subject to arrest, fines, imprisonment etc etc...
(Many, many have been run out of the states for healing too many people.)
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Legally, in many if not all states, if you take in and house for more than 48 hours(or less) a minor, you can go to jail for it.
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Or if you take in and house for more than 1 week to 3 months(varies with area) any one not a family member you may face legal consequences.
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If you publicly object to any government persons blatant and obvious sin, you may be arrested and fined.
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Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma
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So, accepting that the government is totally, socially and morally depraved, yet then
in the op "the general elections in the USA and Malaysia is coming up soon. As citizens of the Kingdom of Yahweh, what is our responsibility towards the election of a government on earth today?"
My main objection is the premise: i.e. the assumption about "our responsibility" that may or may not mean "I will" or "I can do something important."
While next door, not in some government office far far away, but next door, within hundreds of feet or a couple miles depending ... next door is someone hungry , a child, children, an old woman, an old man , a chair, and for 40 miles around is 100 or so people who gather once a week give or take a few times to congratulate each other on being saved ([and] having a nice car, house, dress, suit, boat....) and to discuss with significant import the gov and politics and expose' of benny h.(a corpse full of maggots) and the likes, and to discuss with a solemnity that Yhvh hates but that impresses the coterie the local politics and other news(worldly economy,projects,shopping centers)
All the usual discussions, with or without [a]god's view of the matter, while protecting with [society's] 'normal' values the resources/bank account/property/reputation(ha!Yhvh LAUGHS)/friendships(earthy)
Being able to justify not aiding the poor, the orphan, the widow, the broken, the disabled, and not even knowing how to work together, not even knowing the vital need to give up ones own possessions.
In short; when you have a supper, don't invite the pastor, the deacons, the boss, the co=workers, the neighbors who you gain some benefit from in doing so; rather go out and live daily with INVITE IN and help and feed the destitute, the impoverished, the broken, the shunned ... for whatever you are doing...
... you are doing to Yahshua.
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 Joined: 7/24/2008(UTC) Posts: 29 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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Theophilus wrote:Interesting question Bitnet. I' suspect that all earthly governments being composed of fallen humans are corrupt to greater or lesser degrees. I don't know that we have a Scriptural commandment to vote and don't think we should substitute our trust and reliance upon Yahweh with the same for governement. With that provision, I would think voting could, like paying taxes be regarded as rendering unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's. I think voting differs from paying taxes in that the former is a civic right (at least in a functioning representative republic) while paying taxes is usually an obligation. In a great deal of places, including many which one would associate with being part of the "free world", voting in mandatory. A primary requirement of maintaining citizenship, and being allowed to live a somewhat normal life (own property, open a bank account, travel overseas, practice certain professions), if not staying out of jail. It seems interesting that so much importance is placed on making sure people vote. It seems like a religious ritual. In fact, I think that is exactly what it is. |
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Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Israel / oklahoma
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Yes, I think, religious,
and political
and social
...
leading up to easy acceptance of the irrevocable selling of ones soul
instead of trusting Yhvh no matter what happens
getting "the mark" in order to be allowed citizenship, 'a somewhat normal life', property, bank account, travel overseas, certain(almost all) professions.....
ALMOST EVERYBODY ACCEPTS hasatans lordship, so they also accept the MARK willingly, starting with democracy, patriotism, capitalism, and so on...
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