YHWH Imakhem,
Quote:
While I certainly believe and understand that we cannot trust man, I have also understood the stories in the Torah as part of the Mosaic period and a substantial part of these are a part Israel's oral tradition for three or more centuries before they were put into written form. It is also possible that large portions of the Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings existed in the form of oral tradition for a considerable amount of time. I cannot confirm the date but I believe the OT did't get its final form until somewhere between 800 and 400B.C.
These people were meticulous in their teaching and training, oral tradition and history was a valuable part of their culture. I do understand the danger of chinese telehphone, but do you not think it safe to think that this divine revelation both general and specific is synergistic?
no no no no no...NO!...I don't think it's safe to think that.
The oral torah (the mishna, the Jerusalem (actually Tiberian) Talmud, The Babylonian Talmud and the Midrash...seems that the oral torah isn't so oral anymore) undermine the Torah by adding to it and taking away from it constantly. The religious minuitae is absolutely astounding. All these documents that are the backbone of pharisaic/rabbinic Judaism confirm the absolute authority of the Rabbis
Ex: Even if they (the Rabbis) instruct you that left is right and right is left, you must obey them
Midrash Sifre Deuteronomy
The absolute authority of the rabbis is derived from 5 words. "...It is not in heaven..." Deut 30:12
Thus the Rabbis claim that the Torah is not in heaven and authority is theirs and theirs alone to interpret and rule by Torah. YHWH has no say and he can't question the interpretation of the rabbis!
Here is the actual context:
Deu 30:11 “For this command which I am commanding you today, it is not too hard for you, nor is it far off.
Deu 30:12 “It is not in the heavens, to say, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens for us, and bring it to us, and cause us to hear it, so that we do it?’
Deu 30:13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, to say, ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, and cause us to hear it, so that we do it?’
There is the Minhag (sanctified tradition) such as wearing kippot. It is stated that a man should not walk 4 cubits without his head covered...and he cannot pray without head covering. Nowhere is this in the Torah. It is a tradition that has been sanctified and codified over time. There is also the Ma'aseh and the Takanot...all of these concepts lend themselves to rabbinic halakha.
The rabbis produce takanot (rabbinic proclamations/enactments) from the ma'aseh (stories, happenings, examples, actions of the rabbis)...an example of Rabbinic takanot would be something which Yahushua went after...the washing of the hands.
Mat 15:2 “Why do Your taught ones transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Mat 15:3 But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of Elohim1 because of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 “For Elohim has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’
Mat 15:5 “But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated,”
Mat 15:6 is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of Elohim by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 “Hypocrites! Yeshayahu rightly prophesied about you, saying,
Mat 15:8 ‘This people draw near to Me with their mouth, and respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
Mat 15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of
men.’ ”1 Footnote: 1Isa. 29:13
Yahushua is speaking of the very thing we are discussing...THE ORAL TORAH! In the Hebrew text of the Shem Tob...the word tradition is...TAKANOT!!!
But then we have the trouble with Matthew 23
Mat 23:2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Mosheh.
Mat 23:3 “Therefore, whatever they say to you to guard, guard and do. But do not do according to their works, for they say, and do not do.
This doesn't make any sense...it seems to me. All throughout the Besorah...Yahushua is condemning the heavy burden of Pharisaism. Yet now he gives them authority and tells the people to obey them? Well according to modern scholars the Shem Tov Hebrew Besorah of Matthew exists in large part as the original did. The "church fathers" attest that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and that Messianic communities were reading from that text in their own time. So you can take it or leave it. Hebraisms that are present in the Greek that really are baffling in Greek also betray a Hebrew origin. As I said...scholars say that large parts of the original exist within the Shem Tov text. The Shem Tov text says this:
Mat 23:3 “Therefore, whatever he (Mosheh) says to you to guard, guard and do. But do not do according to their works, for they say, and do not do.
I don't think it's that much of a stretch. In Hebrew it is the change of one character between he and they. And according to the common stream that runs throughout the Besorah..."he" is consistent.
We all know that the Oral law is full of arguments and contradictions. It is also an extreme burden...and that is not my opinion. The modern day p'rushim pride themselves that their walk is difficult and a burden. "The Torah is a burden that is for the Jews alone to bear." The famous Rebbe Nachman of Breslov basically said that the Torah (according to Rabbinic interpretation and law) was so difficult that he got though his life by concentrating only one day at a time.
If you count yourself as a Talmid of the Rabbi Yahushua HaNatsari and you believe Him to be YHWH's earthly manifestation, the Word and the Mashiach...then it seems rather queer to me that you would give the Talmud any creedence.
That's not to say there isn't any information that can be gleened from the Talmud...such as Yahushua was indeed the name of the Messiah...or interesting takes and perspectives...a filling in of the scripture...that may be true but is ultimately inconsequential.
You hear over and over again of Messianic congregations that either break up, have members deny Yahushua and go over to the Rabbinics, and even convert en masse to Rabbinic Judaism...Why? I don't think it would be a stretch to say that a major contributing factor would be deference and an unhealthy esteem for Oral Torah (which is Normative Judaism)...so they go desperately crawling and grovelling to the Rabbis for acceptance. This is a very dangerous path...and it seems that that is the path that Icy's friend is set on taking. Shaul/Paul...wrote about this issue ad nauseum in his letters. If people would sit down and read Paul and verify Paul by the scriptures and by Yahushua's words...and indeed by Ya'aqob, Kepha, and Yahuchanan...as Shaul/Paul himself suggested, they would realize he never contradicts the scriptures or Yahushua's teachings. He is dealing with the VERY ISSUE YAHUSHUA WAS DEALING WITH. If people would do that instead of putting Paul...in the creator of Gentile christianity box...we wouldn't have people like Theo's "Messianic Rabbi" friend...who are very very close to becoming former Messianics!
Shalom Aleichem
