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Offline Heretic Steve  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:39:10 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Does this apply to the paralambano harpazo/"Rapture", the Day of Reconciliations, or both? YY seems to be a tad ambiguous on this issue.
The Erchomai chap, (I think that's the one), seems to indicate this idiom applies to the "Rapture". Yet, the Yom Kippuryim chap delineates this idiom applying to the Rap as one analytical option with the other options applying to Yom Kip.
Just about the time I think I've got this figured out, (an idiom for Trumpets/Rapture), I find the idiom in the Yom Kip chap with the implication being it applies to Yom Kip. Now I am confused, which of course is nothing unusual.
Anybody clear this up?
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:23:07 AM(UTC)
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Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Well there is quite a bit in YY regarding this and the way its worded in modern translations.

Taken from http://yadayahweh.com/Ya..._Good_News_Erchomai.YHWH

Yada - Yadayahweh.com wrote:

Let's begin by examining Yahushua's statement. Our first clue is the first word. God begins with de. De marks a "transition to a different subject, introducing something which is opposed to that which precedes it." De could be translated, "Those things we've been discussing considered and known, what follows is a new subject in which there is a slightly different perspective." Or simply and inadequately: "But nevertheless (de), the immediate vicinity of (para) that one specific and definite (ekeinos - emphatic and distant) day (hemera - interval between sunrise and sunset) and (kai) hour (hora - a certain definite time) no one (oudeis - nobody) recognizes (oida - appreciates or is aware of, perceives, discerns, or notices), not even (oude) the messengers (aggelos) of heaven (ouranos), only the Father (pater) alone (monos)." (Matthew 24:36)

Before I comment on this verse, it must be noted that there is some dispute as to whether the words "nor the Son" are included. Unfortunately, this is one of the few Renewed Covenant passages outside of our relative dearth of Mark, Philemon, 1 John, and Jude manuscripts that is not extant in an early papyrus. The scrolls and books which have survived are late, fourth century at best and they differ. The same passage is recorded in Mark, but nothing after Mark 12 survives from the first three centuries.

While Yahushua said that He is a diminished manifestation of Yahuweh, a requirement to keep His presence from incinerating our planet, the notion that the Father would know something the Son doesn't conflicts with the testimony of Scripture. After all, Yahshua is the Word.

That said, we must ask ourselves. What day is He speaking about? Why was He so careful with His words using "de para eleomps hemera kai hora oudeis oida." And why are we so careless with them? Most translations completely ignore de. In English Bibles para is mistranslated "of" rather than "the immediate vicinity." Further, ekeinos is a very exacting term and usually speaks to "one definite and often distinct entity." It's an "emphatic and specific" term. To render ekeinos "that" misses the point of the word. And oida isn't the usual Greek word for "know." Ginosko is. Oida conveys the idea of simply recognizing something, being aware of it, or just appreciating it. Ginosko implies empirical knowledge. It means to know something through the study of the evidence or through experience. While both words can be translated "know," oida is a much fuzzier term and only suggests that people won't be aware of this one day, that they won't recognize it for what it is. They will be unable to properly perceive, discern, or even notice its connection to other Scriptural references.

To emphasize the importance of oida within this context we discover that the term is very closely associated with oikeios - family or household. It is often used interchangeably with it. So similar are the concepts that both Strong's and the Dictionary of Biblical Languages assert that the text reads oikeios rather than oida. Oikeios means "to belong to the house or family, to be related to and intimate with God." The means to oikeios/being part of His family is through oida/being aware of Him, discerning His truth, coming to recognize what He has done, and ultimately coming to know Him.

The testimony which follows this challenging verse tells us that "the one specific day" Yahushua was speaking of could either be the pre-Tribulation harpazo/harvest or His final advent. But since forty-three of the next forty-five verses are dedicated to concepts related to the rapture with only the remaining two potentially focused on His return it's reasonable to assume that the one specific day where the hour is unknown pertains to the harvest - to the time we will come into His presence.

Moreover, all one has to do is combine an understanding of the Yowbel with the Messiah's previous statements and the Day of His return to earth in judgment and light becomes obvious. Therefore, if He were addressing it again, He would be contradicting Himself. And remember, it can't be both days because Yahushua used the very emphatic ekeinos, not the generic hos for "that." God wasn't speaking generically about all prophetic fulfillments - just about one. The "no one will recognize or know it" speaks to "a definite day," and not about all others.

And it just so happens that there was such a day. The Jewish observation of the Miqra' of Taruwah, or Feast of Trumpets, was corrupted during their Babylonian captivity in the sixth century BCE - as was much of the Hebrew calendar. Ba'al's boys celebrated the new year on the first of Tishri, so Taruwah, Yahuweh's Miqra' on the first day of the seventh month, became Rosh Hashanah - "the head of the year." By Yahushua's time Rosh Hashanah had completely eclipsed Yahuweh's Torah instructions. The shofar, or Ram's Horn Trumpet, was still blown but the reasons why were now confused. So convoluted in fact were these practitioners, it was now blown to confuse the devil on the one day each year the rabbinical oral law said that Satan went before God to accuse Jews of being bad. That's why Rosh Hashanah was also known as Yom Hakeseh, "the Day of the Hiding." According to Rabbinic tradition, this "Hidden Day" had to be concealed from Satan so he couldn't do his job.

As a result, Yom Hakeseh introduced an idiom into the Jewish language that was reflected in Yahushua's enigmatic statement. Even though everybody knew that the Babylonian inspired Rosh Hashanah fell on the first day of Tishri, and that it was Yom Hakesh - the Hidden Day - nobody actually said so. They came to call what had been the Miqra' of Taruwah: "The Day and Hour No One Knows, Only the Father." So, to those who were listening to Him, Yahshua wasn't telling them that they were to be uninformed as to when He would come for his chosen but rather, He was telling them that He would "gather His elect" on the Feast of Trumpets in some unspecified future year.

There was a reason for Yahushua's coyness. He wants us to be engaged in His business, the spiritual battle for souls, and to fight as if today were our last opportunity to prevail. He will in fact, highlight this desire twice in this very discussion, once directly and a second time by way of a parable. For that reason, we should all serve as if there were no tomorrow. I don't know which year the rapture will occur, and certainly don't know the exact hour, nor do you. While I don't think it is, this Taruwah could be our last.


Hope that helps :)

Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Heretic Steve  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:48:33 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Thanks Rob for the reply, appreciate that. What you c&p'd I'd read and understood. However, I noticed this from the Kipuryim chap. Check out the fifth option. The implication is that no one "knows", (lack of awareness for various reasons), when Yahushua will return. So we're talking two diff events, the rap and His return. Since the Erchomai chap is about the Rap, why is the "no man knows the day" idiom, in the YK chap? This is why I find this a tad ambiguous and I was hoping a clarification either way was available. Does this idiom apply to the Rap or His return?

Quote:
Moving on, Matthew's Greek translation of Yahushua's next statement in Aramaic throws everything into question. Translated twice, from Aramaic to Greek and from Greek to English, we find: "But nevertheless (de), concerning the immediate vicinity of (peri - regarding and referring to) that one specific and definite (ekeinos - unique, certain, emphatic, sequential, and distant) day (hemera - interval between sunrise and sunset) and (kai) hour (hora - a certain definite time) no one (oudeis - nobody) recognizes it (oida - appreciates, acknowledges, or is aware of, sees, perceives, discerns, notices, or knows it relationally), not even (oude) the messengers (aggelos) of heaven (ouranos), only the Father (pater) alone (monos)." (Matthew 24:36)

Of the 18 pre-Constantine manuscripts of Matthew, this passage was not included in any of them. There is a record, however, of those responsible for the creating the Textus Receptus altering Matthew's alleged "not even the Son" remark so that it would match Mark 13:32. Therefore, when it comes to this passage, most scholastic tools are rendered unreliable. And unfortunately, there is only one manuscript of Mark dating to the first through third century CE, and it ends in the twelfth chapter. This reliability problem is further compounded by the fact that at best, English is a translation of a translation of what was said. And since most of the Olivet Discourse is quoted from ZakarYah, what we have is a translation three times over.

This leaves us with five different ways to explain these words. First, if we retain the "not even the Son" reference, Yahshua is neither divine nor Yahweh and all of Scripture is a hoax, as it would be impossible for "the Word made flesh" to be unaware of the Word or for the human manifestation of God not to know Yahweh's thoughts. Further, as an eternal being, there can't be a date Yahshua doesn't know. As God, He was there during creation and He has already been to our future. In fact, in this very discussion, He has told us exactly what would happen prior to and during His return. So it's absurd for Him not to know what He has just predicted. Therefore, I'm going to discard this interpretation and blame those who copyedited Yahweh's testimony for the confusion. After all, current scholarship confirms over 300,000 known variations and alterations between the Textus Receptus and older manuscripts.

The second option, one predicated on the removal of "not even the Son," requires us to assume that Yahweh's messengers, who are eternal spirits and thus able to see the past, present, and future simultaneously, have no interest in knowing the timing of the most important event in world history. And since Yahshua says in the same passage that these messengers announce His arrival, it's not reasonable to assume they don't know when to perform. This universally ignorant interpretation also requires us to question why God would provide an overwhelming amount of details specific to His plan and His timeline and yet not want us to understand any of it. Confronted with thousands of useful clues and one poorly rendered passage which seems to negate their purpose, Christian theologians have almost universally held up the grain of sand while ignoring the mountain behind them. Although religious men have earned the criticism, I don't think God is saying, "You are so stupid, you'll never figure this out no matter how obvious I make it?"

Our third alternative is so obvious, the first modern theologian to consider its implications within the context of God's timeline, John Mill in 1707, concluded accurately that the verb oida in Matthew 24:36 was rendered in the present tense. So Yahushua was not saying that no one has ever known, or that no one would ever recognize, the day, but only that no one at that moment in time was aware of it. Worth noting is that not only did Mill close the case on closed mindedness with this analysis, his continued investigations prompted him to question the accuracy of the Textus Receptus. He himself found 30,000 errors in the universally accepted, and yet overwhelmingly flawed, document which still underlies all English bible translations.

Therefore, "no one" in Yahushua's audience and population at the time of His revelation "recognized, appreciated, acknowledged, saw, perceived, discerned, noticed or knew relationally" the predicted day when He was planning to return. This was absolutely true then and almost universally so today. Virtually no one recognizes this "specific and definite, unique and certain, sequential day."

The reason for this is that as a rule, Christians don't study Yahshua's message in the context of the Old Covenant promises, and so they don't connect important fulfillments to the Miqra'. They don't even know what the Miqra' are. Moreover, they don't understand the Genesis one timeline or its prophetic implications. And not one in a thousand connects the parallel passages in Zechariah to Matthew. So Christians don't recognize what's going to happen or when, and most Jews, secular humanists, atheists, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists have no interest in this subject at all.

The fourth option relative to understanding this passage is tied to the fact that Yahshua quickly transitioned in the Olivet Discourse to a discussion regarding the Taruw'ah harvest. While the day of the year this ingathering will occur is known, the year is not known. And while Yahweh and Yahshua would know the year, there is no way for man to discern it from Scripture. All I know for sure is that it will occur on Taruw'ah/Trumpets some time between now and the fall of 2026.

In this regard, Yahshua's answer was ingenious. Jews has substituted the Babylonian Rosh Hashanah (Head of the Year) for Yahweh's Taruw'ah (Shout for Joy and Signal a Warning). Rabbis called it "the hidden day no one knows, only the Father." In their warped minds, it was the one day each year Satan accursed Jews of being bad before God. So they blew their trumpets to confuse the Devil. And they kept the day a secret so that Satan would miss his appointment. Therefore, by saying that He would come for His family on "the day no one knows, only the father," Yahushua was telling His disciples that the harvest would occur on Taruw'ah, now religiously considered Rosh Hashanah.

The fifth consideration for interpreting this verse is based upon the similarities between it and its counterpart in ZakarYah. The subject, timing, context, and word selections are virtually identical, meaning that it is likely that Yahushua was answering His disciples' question by citing the prophet He had previously inspired. So, speaking of the day He is going to return in Hebrew, He said..."This shall be (hayah - exist as) the one ('echad - exclusive, unique, certain, and only) day (yowm) which (hu') is known relationally (yada' - personally revealed and respected, understood and acknowledged, distinguished and discerned) to (la) Yahuweh." (Zechariah 14:7) Know, only, God, one, and day are all in the text, but in a different order, and thereby providing an entirely different, and entirely preferable, meaning.

The translation of this Hebrew citation to Aramaic, then to Greek, to Latin, back into Greek, and finally to English, without the benefit of an early manuscript, and thus tormented by many centuries of religious tampering, changed it to..."But nevertheless (de), concerning the immediate vicinity of (peri - regarding and referring to) that one specific and definite (ekeinos - unique, certain, emphatic, sequential, and distant) day (hemera - interval between sunrise and sunset) and (kai) hour (hora - a certain definite time) no one (oudeis - nobody) recognizes it (oida - appreciates, acknowledges, or is aware of, sees, perceives, discerns, notices, or knows it relationally), not even (oude) the messengers (aggelos) of heaven (ouranos), only the Father (pater) alone (monos)." (Matthew 24:36)

Since the Father is Yahweh, with the exception of the messenger reference, the quotes are so similar I think Yahushua was telling His disciples that the answer to their question could be found in ZakarYah. It therefore isn't about not knowing, but about recognizing the importance of the eternal Word generally, and Yowm Kippurym specifically.

In ZakarYah's next line, we find: "There shall be (hayah) no (lo') day (yowm - time reckoned from sunset to sunrise) and no (wa lo') night (laylah - darkness or gloom). And then (wa) light ('owr - brilliant illumination) shall exist (hayah - shall be) at (la) the point in time ('et - the specific season and proper duration) of sundown ('ereb - sunset, twilight, dusk, and early evening)." (ZakarYah / Zechariah 14:7) The NIV Hebrew English Interlinear renders this passage in the Hebrew order and in the compound form as: "And-it-will-be day unique. It-is-known to Yahweh. No daytime or-no nighttime. And-it-will-be at-time-of evening He-will-be light."

All of Yahweh's Miqra begin at sunset, the prior day. So the Day of Reconciliations, which is the tenth day of the seventh month, starts at twilight of the 9th day and culminates at sunset on the 10th. So, since Yahshua is returning to the Mount of Olives, His glorious final advent will occur just after sunset on October 2nd, 2033, which will be at 6:23 PM or just prior to sundown on October 3rd, which would ordinarily occur at 6:22 PM. It will be approaching lunchtime on the American East Coast - 11:23 AM - based upon the seven-hour time-zone differential.


From YY Book 2 Chapter 7: Kippurim - Reconciliations

Edited by user Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:00:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:15:34 PM(UTC)
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Shalom my friends,


I was reading this thread and thought that I could give another perspective on the "of that day and hour knoweth no man" scriptures. Although the verse is in Matt.24:36 I think we have to consider the Mark 13:32 verse to be more informitive, with the addition of "nor the Son". I don't think this was just added in, but was put there for those that are watching, seeking the truth, by righty dividing the word of God. I believe one verse has "nor the Son" and one doesn't to hide in parables "things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt.13:35 & Rom.16:25) The mystery of God's words which contains two truths hidden within these two verses.


These verses were to hide until the last days, 1) that the scriptures do indeed hold a timetable of history, from the first day of creation, all the way to the last day of judgement. It was place there to have the unbeliever to think that Yahshua would come as a thief in the night to all people, because no one could know the day and hour. But the word tells us that the believer was to watch and know of that day and clearly Yahweh and Yahshua being One have the same knowledge and in Eccl.8:5 we are told..
a wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and judgement. 2)That God die for the sins of man before the world began. (Rev.13:8)
...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Then by the resurrection from the dead, "declared to be the Son of God" as we read in Rom.1:4. He was then manifest in the last times with a body that was prepared for him, that he should come into the world as a witness of the work that was done by Yahweh, for those that believe. The second death of God was a demonstration (sign) of that which has already been done, so that the world could see and believe.

Now what does this have to do with Matt.24:36 & Mark 13:32 you might be thinking. While we can start with as I stated above, that the Father and the Son are One, therefore share the same knowledge. So, of what day and hour could this be speaking of? Is it speaking of the rapture of the believers or the day of judgement, when the wrath of God will be poured out?
Well I think they are the same day, Christ will call the believers and BEGIN his wrath at the same time. I will use Mark 13:32 because theres where the mystery lies. The translated word KNOWETH in the Greek is a past-tense verb, showing that this day and hour were from time past. The Greek word is eido, which was correctly translated KNOWETH, but could be, has seeneth, has saweth, or has beheld through the experience of.

Now if we know that if the Father and the Son are One and have all knowledge, we can know that these verses are speaking of a time BEFORE Yahshua was declared the Son. Thats were Rev.13:8 comes in ...the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, this was Yahweh, when he came through death and was resurrected, he was declared the Son of God, the firstborn of all creation. This is how Yahweh and Yahshua are One God, with the same knowledge of all things, even the day of the future rapture and judgement day, with the 2nd coming of Christ. Yahweh knoweth of the wrath on that day, through the experience of it, but Yahshua doesn't because he wasn't declared the Son yet. With this understanding we can also get rid of the false teaching that Yahweh will not reveal to his childern the exact day of the coming of Christ and we can begin to watch (learn the timetable of all events).

I know that this isn't the way that those you in this fellowship have learned this verses, but I hope that you will look over these things before you discard them to be wrong and make comment. I do sincerly hope that they may help you in some way and matbe even be expounded on with you're better understanding of the languages and tools that you have. I trust that if I have error with context that I will be lovingly corrected.


Your Friend in the Word of God

Offline bitnet  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:18:40 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom All,

Perhaps one of the things that slip by most people, is the the first half of Rev 3:3 where it is said: “Remember, then, how you have received, and heard. And watch and repent. If, then, you do not wake up, I shall come upon you as a thief, and you shall not know at all what hour I come upon you.

In this context, it is addressed to those who have not received and heard, or who have not repented nor kept watch. For those who have have held on fast to what He taught, we have a much better chance at discerning the time of His arrival. It really is as simple as that. No wonder He said that those who profess to be wise will struggle while those who think like a child shall come to Him.

I, too, am guilty of this so many times. When I read John 1:1-5, 14-15 like it is written, it really is simple to see who the Word really is, and why He is called the Word, and what we are left with today if not the Word! And that His grace was with us all since times past in John 1:12-13. Those who refuse to believe this do so at their own peril and shall then have to go through the times of testing before His arrival.

As for other postulations, no offence taken from Truth B-Told nor none intended, I think that KP's book is pretty straightforward and his explanations are easier to understand. From being a pessimist thinking that we have to go through the Tribulation before seeing Messiah Yahushua, I came to realise that the Miqra of Trumpets holds deep meaning that should be viewed from the eyes of a Yahudim in full acknowledgment of their customs and practices. Now I understand how to be an optimist in spite of the troubles ahead.

If you really believe what He says, that He will keep us from the hour, we should understand how He means to do just that. And He knew that we shall ask, so He gave us the Miqra of Trumpets. What more do we need? The exact time of harpazo? Not in the best interests of all stakeholders, is it? I mean, if you run a company and left the staff alone, you'd do a spot check now and then to ensure that your staff are doing the right things in your absence. What greater valuation that not knowing when the hour is but still living according to His will anyway?

Fortunately we have people like Yada and KP so we do know much more than most. So while we press on with Scripture, let us not be too wise and conceited in our knowledge but continue to seek those who answer His Voice and support each other. We must always remember that everything that we are, and do rightly, is not us but Him working through us.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Heretic Steve  
#6 Posted : Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:58:46 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Swalchious U'Kaedious, thx for the heads up. Btw, I've been thinking about/praying for you as of late. I suspect that you may be the only man on earth who has both the capacity/ability and the desire/willingness to properly convey Yah's Word, (the entire Renewed Cov via the pre-Constantinian texts). This puts you in some serious company, such as Moses, the Psalmists, the Prophets, and the Apostles.


And naturally I'm sure you won't forget while sitting in your poorly ventilated, dimly lit, hot in the summer/cold in the winter, stone cell that a miscue in so much as one jot and tittle will get you incinerated alive day and night for all eternity, (just thought I'd add that word of encouragement). Hahaha, just kidding of course.

T-B-T, I'm under the distinct impression that the Son has always been the Son and I'm convinced that the "nor the Son" phrase is a copy edit. No, I can't prove that assertion other than by saying that the Father knows nothing the Son does not know.
I'm just guessing, but I'd be willing to wager lunch that the Uni's added the "nor the Father" phrase to lend credibility to the notion that the trinity is 3 diff persons.


Edited by user Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:00:03 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#7 Posted : Thursday, July 31, 2008 5:19:31 PM(UTC)
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Shalom Steve,

Sorry, for the formatt below, I don't know how to put a quote in a highlighted box yet. I'll figure it out one day. Lol.

You said:
T-B-T, I'm under the distinct impression that the Son has always been the Son and I'm convinced that the "nor the Son" phrase is a copy edit. No, I can't prove that assertion other than by saying that the Father knows nothing the Son does not know.
I'm just guessing, but I'd be willing to wager lunch that the Uni's added the "nor the Father" phrase to lend credibility to the notion that the trinity is 3 diff persons.

I can uderstand that the Son has aways been God, but I don't think we can say, that God has always been the Son. We know that Yahweh always existed, that he had no beginning, can we say the same for Yahushua.

The scriptures say in Col.1:15;
" Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature:"
Col. 1:18;
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING, the FIRSTBORN from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Heb. 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the FIRSTBEGOTTEN into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rev. 1:5;
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the FIRST BEGOTTEN of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev. 1:8;
I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev. 1:11;
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the FIRST and the last:
Rev. 22:13;
I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the end, the FIRST and the last.

Now I'm not using these scriptures to trying show that the Father and Son are seperate beings, I surely know that they are One God. What I'm trying to show is that Yahushua had a beginning, a time in eternity past, when Yahweh declared him to be.
This took place after Yahweh was the LAMB SLAIN from the foundation of the world. Spoken of in Rev. 13:8, he die for the sins of the world before he ever created it, then he overcame death, and was resurrected. Thats when Yahweh declared HIMSELF to be the Son, the FIRSTBORN from the dead, the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father. Then now as Yahushua he created all things, being himself the FIRSTBORN of all creatures, by the resurrection as we can read in Rom. 1:4

Rom. 1:4;
And DECLARED to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, BY the RESURRECTION from the dead:

Now when we look at Mark 13:32;
But of that day and that hour KNOWETH no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven,NEITHER the SON, but the Father.

This can make sense when we know that the KNOWETH is the PAST-tense verb "eido" in the Greek. We can understand that Yahushua didn't know THAT DAY (through the experience) because Yahweh had not DECLARED himself to be the Son yet, that came AFTER the resurrection. Surely the Father and Son have the same KNOWLEDGE, so if Yahweh knows the FUTURE day and hour of the coming of Yahushua then surely Yahushua knows it to. This verse in Mark 13:32 can only be speaking of a time in eternity PAST, before Yahweh died and was resurrected, and declared to be the Son.

So, as you confess that you can't prove that the uni's copy edited the "NEITHER the SON" I would just except this scripture as it is written. When looking at it in the light inwhich I have tried to explain it, it can make sense that way and we don't have to second quess truthfulness of a scripture verse through our inorance of not being able to prove its authenticity. When they come up with the proof I will gladly buy you a lunch.

I would like hear from you and your understanding of Rev. 13:8 and Rom. 1:4, as I've said I don't have any understanding of the original languages or use all the past writings of others, mainly because I get confused enough just trying to understand the English version of the bible. Take care and have a nice evening.
Offline Heretic Steve  
#8 Posted : Saturday, August 2, 2008 9:59:39 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Hi T-B-T,
May I suggest Swalchy's site, thewaytoyahweh.com. Check out his translation of Rev and Romans. Also, it's likely that Ken has analysed those Rev passages at Future History.
Both of them are lightyears more qualified at scrip interpretation/analysis than I.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
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