logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline gammafighter  
#1 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:22:26 PM(UTC)
gammafighter
Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC)
Posts: 114
Man
Location: Hilo, Hawaii

A conversation with my dad got me thinking: is it even possible for the Sabbath to be EVERY Saturday? It didn't seem possible. It seemed like it should change year to year. Then I looked up how the Hebrew calendar works. Here's what I understand:

The New Moon is the first day of each month, which makes every month 28 days or 4 weeks exactly (i don't think it always works out like that, but whatever) (in fact, now that i look at it, that's not true at all. Each full set of phases is supposed to be 29.5 days so that means... I don't know).

I guess i'm going off the assumption that the First day of the month would count as the first day of the week, but that kind of breaks down if the months aren't exactly 28 days long.

So really my question is: How does the Hebrew Calendar work??? (Or ultimately: how do Sabbaths work???) I know I said above that I looked that up, but apparently I am still clueless. I can't really trust modern Jewish Calendars because they could be placing the Sabbath on Saturday out of tradition. I thought that the days of the month matched up to days of the week, so that the first day of the month was the 1st, 8th, 15th, and 22nd days of the week were the first days of the weeks and the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th days were Sabbaths. If that were so, Mondays were Sabbaths in January (or S'hvat according to Hebcal.com). On the one hand, having the Sabbath so tied to the calendar system would be helpful in convincing people to follow the Sabbath, but on the other hand, it wouldn't be every seven days, breaking the whole 6+1 pattern!
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:43:47 PM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
im no expert - but from what I gather from the information its not linked specifically to a monthly cycle - its a 7 day cycle. So you just count 7 days then start again. 7 day Sabbaths don't link to the moon cycle - there are new moon celebrations although I don't know enough about them to comment, and I'm not sure they are classed as a Sabbath day.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong please :D
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline shalom82  
#3 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:13:05 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I think you're pretty much there Rob.

New moons I think are more a day of fellowship and celebration than a mandated sabbath. There was a post in the Torah thread about New moons if I remember correctly.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline bitnet  
#4 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2008 11:22:36 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Gamma,

The weekly Sabbath is different from the other special Sabbaths. The weekly Sabbath has not changed, and we only have to follow what Yahushua kept during his time here. The current Jews have kept the seventh day observance since then (however they load it) so we do not have to worry about the wrong Sabbath day. The Catholic and Orthodox churches have also placed their mark on the first day of the week so we know the preceding day is the seventh day and belongs to Yahweh. Yes, so it is EVERY Saturday. You have been reading too much and have gone blur! Relax! It'll come to you again.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Theophilus  
#5 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2008 3:34:44 AM(UTC)
Theophilus
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 527
Man

Thanks: 3 times
You seem to have it correct. The weekly Sabbat has been unchanged going back into ancient times. The ones associated with the miqras do change.

In fact that was a pronounced aspect of the crufixion. The Thursday night and Friday day we know was the 14th of Nisan or eve of Passover. The first day of Unleavened bread (Saturday 15 Nisan), a miqra sabbath which that year also happened to coincide with the weekly sabbath, making it a high sabbath. We can do the math based on what we know about the solar cycle and determine that 33 CE was a match for this event. The only question being whether it was April 1st as YY and Hebcal indicate or April 3rd as wikipedia and other calander conversions indicate. The warning about early dates in Hebcal makes me think the latter date is correct, but both are correct on day of the week and Hebrew calendar dates.

We have a thread or two on that subject a few months ago when we investigated that matter if you'd like more detail.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2008 5:27:12 AM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
cool good to know I understand something :D
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2008 12:04:52 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

You're right, Theo, as to the meaninglessness of the Gregorian or Julian date (April 1 vs. April 3). But it was an epiphany to me to realize that there was nothing coincidental about the prototypical Feast of Unleavened Bread falling on a natural Sabbath. It didn't "just happen." Yahweh planned for it, ordained it, and predicted it in the Torah---and then gave Nehemiah a severe burden at precisely the right time so the Daniel 9 prophecy would work out to exactly the right year. Precisely 173,880 days after the edict this burden precipitated came out to Monday, Nisan 10, in 33 AD--the date of the triumphal entry, the day the sacrificial Lamb was to be "brought into the house." Passover fell, as we were instructed, four days later on Friday, and Chag Matzah came---as required by scripture---the next day, a natural Sabbath. Designated-Sabbath miqrym were okay for any other year, but in this year, the year of fulfillment, it had to be on a natural Sabbath, and it was. Yahweh doesn't have to fudge. He knows.

Fast forward precisely two thousand years (as required by Hosea 6:2) to the final fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles---another miqra with a specified Sabbath celebration. The seventh miqra; the seventh millennial milestone. The date? Saturday, October 8 (Tishri 15), 2033. Surprised? We shouldn't be.

kp
Offline gammafighter  
#8 Posted : Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:43:12 PM(UTC)
gammafighter
Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC)
Posts: 114
Man
Location: Hilo, Hawaii

Thanks everyone. I'm all cleared up now. I think bitnet was right, I was overthinking. I think my brain had to reboot. lol
Offline cwcsmc  
#9 Posted : Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:24:14 PM(UTC)
cwcsmc
Joined: 1/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Florida

(I did not write this nor have any connection to it except to consider it a possibility)

This might be interesting to those who care. It comes from this website: http://www.ministersnewcovenant.org/


Why I Am a Lunar Sabbatarian



The purpose of this brief essay concerning Sabbath observance is not for a thorough explanation about or rebuttal to those in opposition of this particular belief, but rather an explanation as to why I have chosen that this method of Sabbath observance aligns best with the Bible, having Scriptural precedent.



1) Yahweh’s calendar is mentioned in the Bible in a few placed (Genesis 1:14-18; Psalms 104:19; Jeremiah 31:35-36). In Genesis we are specifically told it is the lights in the heavens that are to be for time calculation, therefore, we should look to the lights (sun, moon, and stars) that the heavenly Father has created and made for His calendar.



2) Anyone who has a background in the Biblical calendar acknowledges that the year does not begin in January (the middle of winter), the month doesn’t begin arbitrarily, consisting of 31, 30, 29, or 28 days, and that the day doesn’t begin at midnight. I go a step further by not believing the week beings on the day known as Sunday. If the year, month, and day can be found solely by Yahweh’s calendar, why not the week and in turn the Sabbath?



3) We find in nature a phenomenon in the cycle of the moon. The moon begins at the new moon and then approximately 7 days (7.3) later builds to a half orb, followed by a full moon in seven more days, then down to a waning half in another seven days, followed by a final sliver seven days later. It is no coincidence Yahweh timed the moon to phase in these intervals, especially seeing the Bible tells us that nature itself teaches principles (Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 11:15).



4) We find in Scripture that the day of the new moon is a special day, separate and distinct from the working days and Sabbaths (Isaiah 66:22-23; Amos 8:5; 2 Kings 4:23). This is specifically found in Ezekiel 46:1. We clearly see in these passages that neither the Sabbath or the new moon are one of the six working days. This means the new moon must not fall on a working day, placing day 1 of any given Biblical month separate, followed by six working days (2nd - 7th of the month), and the followed by the weekly Sabbath (8th of the month). This is then followed by Sabbaths on the 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every moon, with a one or two day new moon festival at the end/beginning of each month (1 Samuel 20).



5) Every place in the Bible where we find a Sabbath day pinpointed to a day of the moon, it falls on one of the above dates. This is too much of a coincidence for it to occur each and every time the Sabbath is pinpointed. Genesis 2, and it’s mention of the Sabbath (when proper exegesis occurs) falls out on the 8th of the moon, as well as the next Sabbath mentioned (Exodus 16), and the list goes on.



I could literally go on and on, and have in a book entitled “PROOF: Weekly Sabbath Days are Determined by the Moon” which is free to those requesting. I am also available to anyone desiring to study the Scriptures and I am also willing to publicly or privately debate the issue with anyone.

Offline bitnet  
#10 Posted : Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:33:52 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Wheee! This is an interesting post Yadacsmc. But it begs a few questions? What did the people in Judea keep and what did the MessiYah keep? Did they get it wrong? If it was wrong, would not have MessiYah corrected it so that He can be fulfill all the Law and be blameless? But when he was a baby what did His earthly parents keep and teach Him so that He kept the Sabbath as a child through to adulthood? Did His followers also get it wrong? Did the people of Judea think His followers got it wrong if they tried to teach another Sabbath? Would we not have heard of it throughout the ages? Has there been any changes since 2,000 years ago? Or should we be wary of those who teach "different times and customs?"

Peace Be!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline cwcsmc  
#11 Posted : Saturday, February 16, 2008 6:19:33 AM(UTC)
cwcsmc
Joined: 1/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Florida

I agree with your questions. What did the people in Judea keep and what did the MessiYah keep?

I did a search on the "History of the week" and what I found is no one knows the answer to that question. Here is an article from a webpage I found interesting.



What Is the Origin of the 7-Day Week?

Digging into the history of the 7-day week is a very complicated matter. Authorities have very different opinions about the history of the week, and they frequently present their speculations as if they were indisputable facts. The only thing we seem to know for certain about the origin of the 7-day week is that we know nothing for certain.

The common explanation is that the seven-day week was established as imperial calendar in the late Roman empire and furthered by the Christian church for historical reasons. The British Empire used the seven-day week and spread it worldwide. Today the seven-day week is enforced by global business and media schedules, especially television and banking.

The first pages of the Bible explain how God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. This seventh day became the Jewish day of rest, the sabbath, Saturday.

Extra-biblical locations sometimes mentioned as the birthplace of the 7-day week include: Babylon, Persia, and several others. The week was known in Rome before the advent of Christianity.

There are practical geometrical theories as well. For example, if you wrap a rubber band around 7 soda cans (or any other convenient circular objects). You get a perfect hexagon with the 7th can in the middle. It is the only stable configuration of wrapping more than 3 circular objects. Four, 5, and 6 objects will slip from one configuration to another. Ancients wrapping tent poles, small logs for firewood, or other ciruclar objects might have come upon this number and attach a mystical significance to it.

One viable theory correlates the seven day week to the seven (astrological) "planets" known to the ancients: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. The number seven does not seem an obvious choice to match lunar or solar periods, however. A solar year could be more evenly divided into weeks of 5 days, and the moon phases five-day and six-day weeks make a better short term fit (6 times 5 is 30) to the lunar (synodic) month (of about 29.53 days) than the current week (4 times 7 is 28). The seven-day week may have been chosen because its length approximates one moon phase (one quarter = 29.53 / 4 = 7.3825).




Given the possiblity that the week could have been reckoned by the moon, at least in Yahshua's world. The question I have is, what if Yahshua and those during His time kept the Lunar Sabbath? What would that do to our world? Would we be willing to change to match it? How strange would that be?
Offline shalom82  
#12 Posted : Friday, February 22, 2008 8:43:10 AM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Yadacsmc,
are you advocating the lunar sabbath? I would just like to know clearly if that is your position.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline cwcsmc  
#13 Posted : Saturday, February 23, 2008 1:26:00 PM(UTC)
cwcsmc
Joined: 1/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Florida

No. What I am trying to advocate is truth. It seems odd to me that Yahweh would make every year and every month dependent on the solar and lunar cycles and then leave the weekly Sabbath, one He holds everyone accountable for, to a man made calendar. That just doesn't make sense to me. One thing I have found is if you search hard enough what you can find is that most 'truths' man believes in has something to do with his own traditions. How much more dependent on Yahweh would one have to be if each month and each Sabbath within it was determined directly by Him. I find that enough reason to question man's intentions and see were man would benefit if the current Sabbath system was maintained.

What I am trying to find out is, does anyone here have any information that would lead further into what is true about Yahweh's requirement for the observance of the weekly Sabbath.

Do you advocate the traditional Rabbinical Sabbath or Sabbath that maintains the current worldly calendar?



Offline shalom82  
#14 Posted : Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:44:15 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
For one thing to work out perfectly the calendar would need to have 28 days exactly for a perfect lunar based sabbatical calendar. Moon cycles are 29 1/2 days long. That would leave 1 to two unaccounted days at the end of every month that lunar sabbatarians have to contend with. That kinda kills the whole 6 days shall you labor...when you actually might have 7 or 8 days till the next sabbath. They make up for this by extending the sabbath or having normal days on the new moons, except they can't do any commerce. The Wilderness Manna is another strong indication that YHWH's provision would never be over two consecutive days...the 6th and the 7th. Another piece to the puzzle is the Feast of Weeks/Shavuot/Pentecost...which does not fit into a lunar sabbath model. And what's it going to be? The 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th model or should we go by the 8th, 15th, 22nd, 29th model?

Secondly, most people automatically figure with the power and the prestige of the Romans being accounted for that their calendar influenced the Yahudim to have a 7 day week in it's current format. Actually the opposite is true. The 7 day week of Israel was an extremely attractive idea in the ancient world and influenced the cultures it came into contact with. The original Roman week had 8 days. So the current worldy calendar actually is reflective of YHWH's 7 day week.

Evidence contemporary to the time of Yahushua (including Josephus, the book of Jubilees, the book of Enoch, the Qumram community's 364 day calendars, the church fathers, Philo (though lunar sabbatarians claim him for themselves), the Mishna and Talmud, and Roman Historical Testimony) shows that the Yahudim were keeping a 7 day continuous cycle. Yahushua went into the synagogues to teach and read from the scriptures on the 7th day sabbath and teach his poignent lessons against the P'rushim on the sabbath. He criticized them for the traditions of the elders such as the washing of the hands, the work restrictions, and the insane legalism of the prohibitions against healing and doing good on the Sabbath. As Bitnet pointed out since the historical evidence flushes out a 7th day sabbath consistent with Friday evening to Saturday evening in the time of Yahushua...that was what He was keeping it, and he never criticized any of the religious judaisms for keeping it...rather...how they kept it. The most reliable piece of evidence pertaining to the fact that the seventh day sabbath was in congruity with scripture was the Romish Churches simple change of the Sabbath from Saturday to the Lord's day (Sunday)....as a measure to dejudaize the faith of the Messiah and disassociate the Messiah from all things pertaining to the culture He was put in to revelate to the world. The heretical change by the Roman Institution and the stubborn holding on of the seventh day sabbath in large numbers of congregations until the 7th and 8th centuries are both compelling evidence. Of all the historical evidence that proves a 7 day continual cycle...what is striking is the lack of any shred of evidence that shows a dramatic shift from the lunar sabbath to the 7 day cycle sabbath. If that is the case all of the Yahudim that were scattered thoughout the earth...into Europe, Asia, and Africa...lost any trace of the lunar sabbath...(THAT IS SO EASY TO KEEP...according to Lunar Sabbatarians) and all the scattered groups...of one accord...set apart the seventh day. That's like Muhammad claiming that the Yahudim were able to corrupt scriptures by editing out the words Allah, Mecca, Muslim, and Islam.

Lastly, I will say that I advocate the seventh day sabbath as it is observed by Rabbinics. I am unwilling to throw out the baby with the bathwater....It is no more a rabbinic sabbath than Passover is a "Jewish Holiday".

We are to be in the world and not of it. Life goes on. Believers must still support families. I am sorry but I just cannot believe that the Creator of the Universe that can maneuver through space time, that is all knowing, and all seeing...with complete and perfect wisdom...and LOVE...would put such a burden on the people who are called by His name and take their oathes by His name. Sorry Boss, this Month I'm gonna need all my Thursdays off....this seems like something an arbitrary incompassionate Illah...like Allah would do...not YHWH.



YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline bitnet  
#15 Posted : Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:11:01 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

In that our MessiYah Yahushua kept the weekly seventh day as the Sabbath for His whole life on earth and which was in step during His ministry on earth, and that His apostles and further emmisaries also kept the same days is uncontested or else the Pharisees, Sadducees and others would have found fault with them and made this a major issue during that time itself. The silence in Scriptures and contemporary writings about any dispute about the identification of the weekly Sabbath is a huge indicator that the seventh day has not been in question, but the ways to keep the Sabbath set-apart has been disputed. Like said in my earlier post, unless it can be proven that we do not observe the same weekly calendar from the time of MessiYah Yahushua, then we do not have a problem; but the others who do lay claim to other sabbaths must prove themselves to be in line with Scripture. For we know that our MessiYah Yahushua kept everything perfectly and this we cannot dispute.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline cwcsmc  
#16 Posted : Sunday, February 24, 2008 7:47:40 AM(UTC)
cwcsmc
Joined: 1/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Florida

This was taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

http://www.jewishencyclo...artid=13&letter=S#60

Probable Lunar Origin.

—Critical View:

The origin of the Sabbath, as well as the true meaning of the name, is uncertain. The earliest Biblical passages which mention it (Ex. xx. 10, xxxiv. 21; Deut. v. 14; Amos viii. 5) presuppose its previous existence, and analysis of all the references to it in the canon makes it plain that its observance was neither general nor altogether spontaneous in either pre-exilic or post-exilic Israel. It was probably originally connected in some manner with the cult of the moon, as indeed is suggested by the frequent mention of Sabbath and New-Moon festivals in the same sentence (Isa. i. 13; Amos viii. 5; H Kings iv. 23). The old Semites worshiped the moon and the stars (Hommel, "Der Gestirndienst der Alten Araber"). Nomads and shepherds, they regarded the night as benevolent, the day with its withering heat as malevolent. In this way the moon ("Sinai" = "moon ["sin"] mountain") became central in their pantheon. The moon, however, has four phases in approximately 28 days, and it seemingly comes to a standstill every seven days. Days on which the deity rested were considered taboo, or ill-omened. New work could not be begun, nor unfinished work continued, on such days. The original meaning of "Shabbat" conveys this idea (the derivation from "sheba'" is entirely untenable). If, as was done by Prof. Sayce (in his Hibbert Lectures) and by Jastrow (in "American Journal of Theology," April, 1898), it can be identified in the form "shabbaton" with the "Shabattum" of the Assyrian list of foreign words, which is defined as "um nuḥ libbi" = "day of propitiation" (Jensen, in "Sabbath-School Times," 1892), it is a synonym for "'Aẓeret" and means a day on which one's actions are restricted, because the deity has to be propitiated. If, with Toy (in "Jour. Bib. Lit." xviii. 194), it is assumed that the signification is "rest," or "season of rest" (from the verb "to rest," "to cease [from labor]"; though "divider" and "division of time" are likewise said to have been the original significations; comp. also Barth, "Nominalbildungen," and Lagarde, "Nominalbildung"), the day is so designated because, being taboo, it demands abstinence from work and other occupations. [color=blue]The Sabbath depending, in Israel's nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day. When the Israelites settled in the land and became farmers, their new life would have made it desirable that the Sabbath should come at regular intervals, and the desired change would have been made all the more easily as they had abandoned the lunar religion

What if Yahshua healed and gathered grain on the rabbinic Sabbath but kept the Sabbath given to Him from Yahweh as well?

In my way of thinking, if God were to reveal a way of worship different than the world's system, he would also provide the means. He would provide the 'Boss' that would not interfere. What if the true Sabbath is for the Bride, the Remnant?

Again, I am not trying to promote any particular idea. I am trying to get at the truth.
Offline kp  
#17 Posted : Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:23:40 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Random thought: There is absolutely no reason Yahweh's seven-day week should fit evenly (read: perfectly) into either a solar year or a lunar month. Quite the opposite is true, in fact: in the end, the light of the sun will be replaced by the light of Yahweh Himself. "There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light." (Revelation 22:5) How appropriate, for the sun, a gift from God to men and a faithful servant for the last four or five billion years, has too often been mistaken for God Himself. And worse, the moon, a mere reflector of the sun's light, has been worshipped as well. Yahweh will someday permanently "eclipse" the sun, palpably demonstrating to those of us who chose to revere His light over big bright shiny things in the sky, that He was always the sole source of energy and life in our universe. The seven day week is a symbol of Yahweh's plan of redemption for mankind, from the inception of need (our sin) until the day when every mortal human has made his choice, one way or another. The sun and moon will cease to be. The seven day week, however, may (if God chooses) remain throughout eternity as a reminder of Yahweh's grace.

kp
Offline shalom82  
#18 Posted : Sunday, February 24, 2008 9:17:11 AM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Shalom Achim v'Achayot,
I am not accusing you, Yadacsmc of challenging the veracity of the scriptures but yet it seems that you have put up material that does. It is true that both the Assyrians and the Babylonians both observed something like a Shabbat a shappatu on the 4 phases of the moon, but connecting YHWH's shabbat to Babylonian lunar Shappatu is in the words of Oxford Dictionary of Jewish religion..."dubious". Where Shappatu is a day of evil omens and is inauspicious for commerce and labor...Shabbat is a joyful day of rest ordained from Creation.


Quote:
Joh 7:37 And on the last day, the great day of the festival The Last Great Day ( Shimini Atzaret) always falls on the 22nd of the 7th month), יהושע stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me, and let him who believes in Me drink.

Joh 8:1 And יהושע went to the Mount of Olives.
Joh 8:2 And at dawn He came again into the Set-apart Place, and all the people were coming to Him. And having sat down, He was teaching them.

Joh 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but יהושע was hidden and went out of the Set-apart Place, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Joh 9:1 And passing by
, He saw a man, blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His taught ones asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?”
Joh 9:3 יהושע answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of Elohim might be made manifest in him.
Joh 9:4 “It is necessary for Me to work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day – night is coming, when no one is able to work.
Joh 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
Joh 9:6 Having said this, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva, and applied the clay to the eyes of the blind man.
Joh 9:7 And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Shiloaḥ” (which means Sent). So he went and washed, and came seeing.
Joh 9:8 Therefore the neighbours and those who saw him before, that he was blind, said, “Is not this he who was sitting and begging?”
Joh 9:9 Others said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am.”
Joh 9:10 So they said to him, “How were your eyes opened?”
Joh 9:11 He answered and said, “A Man called יהושע made clay and applied it to my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to the pool of Shiloaḥ and wash.’ And I went and washed, and I received sight.”
Joh 9:12 And they said to him, “Where is He?” He said, “I do not know.”
Joh 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees the one who was once blind.
Joh 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath when יהושע made the clay and opened his eyes.

The 22nd day is the last Great day of the assembly. It is always the 22nd. In chapters 8 and 9 (which are a continuous narrative of one day (please don't take my word for it) we see the events of the 23rd a natural sabbath. It is not the 21st or the 22nd. Joh 9:14 does not say "...it was the day the P'rushim claimed to be the sabbath when Yahushua made the clay..." I will take the Besorah at it's word when it says..."...IT WAS THE SABBATH..."


Yahushua was not challenging the P'rushim's view of when the sabbath is, he was challenging their views on what the Shabbat is.



Shalom

Edited by user Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:27:00 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline cwcsmc  
#19 Posted : Sunday, February 24, 2008 2:44:48 PM(UTC)
cwcsmc
Joined: 1/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Florida

The point of the information I supplied was not to contradict scripture. The point was just to add more to the fact that looking to the moon for determining the monthly Sabbath cycle could be a possibility and it should be obvious that it was an acceptable practice at that time or before in history. The reference to the nomadic period of the Israelites was the important part.

As far as the scripture you provided, the first obvious thing is that it is stated in my bible that verses 7:53 - 8:11 of John are not reliable. So verse 8:2 may not be an accurate time factor.

Second thing is, how do you know verse 7:37 was talking about the Eighth Day Festival? Maybe it was talking about the last great day of the 7 day festival which is not a Sabbath. The next day would be a Sabbath and then verse 8:2 would be relevant and point to the Sabbath that Yahshua healed the blind man.

I would say that Yahshua was challenging everything about the religious order of the day, including the their version of the Sabbath, that could also include the factor of "when". But, nevertheless, this Sabbath happen to be one everyone recognized, so that was not the issue.
Offline bitnet  
#20 Posted : Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:17:33 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom All,

Yadacsmc, this discussion is revealing some very interesting aspects of our minds. While we do not take the Word lightly, it seems that you are suggesting that we should take an even deeper understanding to how time was kept and whether the practice of keeping time may have been corrupted before and after Messiyah Yahushua walked this earth. Now you also suggest that error possibly crept into the letter of Yahuchanon and that some verses (7:53-8:11) are not reliable. Before I attempt to answer, are there anymore of these "discrepancies" that we should know about?

My feeble mind is that there are no perfect lunar cycles that keep in step with the days and nights, and that that is why we have these leap years with extra months to keep in sync with the solar years. If lunar months are the key to observing time, then would not the Hebrews that walked with Moshiach have been taught about the proper lunar cycles at Mt Sinai? But assuming that He did, and that the people followed, you are also postulating that the practice was corrupted at some point in time between then and Messiyah Yahushua's Sacrifice. Or is it that the Hebrews all kept the right time but that we are misunderstanding the weekly Sabbaths as we do not have any continuity since then? Or that the Yahuwdy have been derelict in keeping the weekly Sabbaths from before the time of Messiyah Yahushua till today? Or that it was not necessary for Messiyah Yahushua to expound and correct the errors that the Yahuwdy have been doing for centuries? Or that the Yahuwdy traditions are really corrupted in practically every way and that their traditions are practically redundant even on the point of keeping time?

I'm really trying to fathom all these from the point of a goyim who is exposed to the Word for the first time and who is told that Salvation is not difficult to understand but that there are things that are too difficult to accept but should be followed in blind faith, starting with the concept of time. From Scripture, I read that half of the Hebrews were taken into captivity for the sins of creating their own gods, traditions and timekeeping, and that the remaining Kingdom of Yahudea recognised these errors and sought to keep proper and respectful timekeeping to avoid Yahweh's punishment, but that their moral pendulum swung to the other end and their traditions became yokes of burden while keeping to the letter of the law. I appeal to you to kindly explain it all to us once and sundry where we may have gone astray.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline cwcsmc  
#21 Posted : Monday, February 25, 2008 6:19:08 AM(UTC)
cwcsmc
Joined: 1/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Florida

I am not here to teach you anything, I am here to learn. However, within our discussion if we each learn something from the other, then we have truly accomplished something.

As far as my statement about the reliability of verses 7:53 – 8:11, I only make that statement because it is stated in my Bible. Now if I take the Word of God as infallible, then that could also mean the notes and commentaries in any Bible as well. After all God has allowed them to be included in His Word. But if you say that the notes and commentaries are additions, then my question would be, what else was added?

The possibility of a lunar Sabbath has been something that I have been trying to get a handle on for sometime now since it was impressed upon me many years ago. I came to this site and read some of the things here and felt I may learn something here, for a time. And when I came across the Day of Rest discussion I thought it would be a great place to ask some questions in hopes of either learning more about this subject or finding out were it is in error. I am here to see were the lunar Sabbath could be in error.

Quote:
My feeble mind is that there are no perfect lunar cycles that keep in step with the days and nights, and that that is why we have these leap years with extra months to keep in sync with the solar years.


Maybe that is the point. Our feeble minds are not meant to understand how God works out is time schedules. Do you understand Quantum Physics, whether you understand it or not it still works? Faith in God seems to be the answer to how He works out the timing. So you have an option, Faith in God or Faith in a calendar. Which one do you think is the correct choice?

Quote:
If lunar months are the key to observing time, then would not the Hebrews that walked with Moshiach have been taught about the proper lunar cycles at Mt Sinai? But assuming that He did, and that the people followed, you are also postulating that the practice was corrupted at some point in time between then and Messiyah Yahushua's Sacrifice.


Lamentations 2 in general and Lamentations 2:6 to be specific.

Quote:
I appeal to you to kindly explain it all to us once and sundry where we may have gone astray.


Sorry, I am lost myself.

However, I am still interested in the question I last asked, how do you know verse 7:37 of John was talking about the Eighth Day Festival?
Offline bitnet  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, February 26, 2008 6:48:24 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom All,

I'll take Yadacsnc's critique in good faith, but it really leads us nowhere. The loss of the Sabbaths in Lamentations is noted, but is moot. If "time" has been lost before the arrival of MessiYah Yahushua, it would have been rather awkward for Him to be fulfilling all the wrong days when He tabernacled with us for 33 years! Again, I note that we have to observe time and tradition of time from whence He came. Also please note that Dany'el and other Scriptures point to a particular time of His arrival as ysh, which was fulfilled according to the actual measure of time that was being observed! From this same measure of time we have also arrived at other dates, during which several of the Miqra have been fulfilled and the dates of when the others will be fulfilled. It is my faith in Scripture and His prior advent here on earth that I rely upon the dates to set as an example. Again, unless otherwise proven beyond a doubt, this whole debacle seems rather distracting. It is not because I am not keen to seek any further revelation on this, but the facts seem to speak for themselves. As to whether I understand quantum physics, or not, is immaterial to this discussion for I have been reading a little about quantum physics since the early 1980s only, and it has little bearing on determining the measure of time that is being discussed. What I do admit though, is that I am feeble of mind when it comes to His Word, for I know that I do not have the full measure of the Set-Apart Spirit. Hence my request for further elucidation. Unfortunately, it seems not to be forthcoming. Does anyone else have a handle on this in more detail?

I am also aware of much qualifications about the translations of Scripture as is written in the forewords, margins, and footnotes from one version to another. Actually, if one reads the whole range of popular commentaries and lexicons, thousands of verses are actually in doubt and many scholars even claim that much of Scripture was written hundreds of years after events happened -- because it is impossible for men to know things before time! To accept these commentaries and reference material as infallible Scripture would be folly. So how do we deal with passages like John 7:53-8:11? At face value is it in context or not? If it was written by Luke and reported in John, is there a problem? May other original Codecs exist? Can we preclude them? Should we preclude the doubtful passage in John? I'd think far greater learned men then I have pondered these things and thought it best to leave it where it stands. I'll leave it to Yada, KP and Swalchy and others more familiar with Scripture to deal with this. Again, unless otherwise proven false, I'd rather err on the side of caution when whole passages are concerned.

By the way, how does one move from Pesach through Bikkurim, Shavuot, etc. to Sukkoth without counting the weekly Sabbaths properly?

Edited by user Tuesday, February 26, 2008 5:36:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline shalom82  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:15:29 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
The information that the last great day is the shemini atzaret is gleaned from Philo and Josephus as well as a scholarly consensus that I will admit is not unanimous.

Also from Leviticus 23:36 we can gather some information:

Quote:
Lev 23:36 ‘For seven days you bring an offering made by fire to יהוה. On the eighth day there shall be a set-apart gathering for you, and you shall bring an offering made by fire to יהוה. It is a closing festival, you do no servile work.
There is a difference between doing no servile work and no work as would be the case with the sabbath. The eighth day also has a differing offering schedule from the regular sabbath day...if there was any doubt as to whether the 8th day is actually part of the feast which lunar sabbatarians claim is not...but in reality is only the weekly shabbat. If that were the case then why did YHWH not tell the Israelites to stick around another day after Chag Matsah. Chag Matsah (the Feast of Unleavened Bread) ends on the 21st. The next day...the 22nd would be a lunar sabbath...yet there is no command to stick around after the feast....as the Moonies claim is the case with Sukkot.

The Shemini Atzaret is a day connected yet distinctive. As I said before both Philo and Josephus in their writings acknowledge both the connective and seperate nature of the 8th day assembly. As it is the connected to Tabernacles it is the eighth and final day of that celebration. It is also the closing assembly of the year...if we remember that Yom Teruah is not the head of the year. So in actually 2 ways the 8th day is the last great day. It is a high day...a day of special solemnity and importance. Though the 7th day (the Hoshana Rabbah) is special and significant...the eighth day transcends. On this day the greatest offering was given and this final offering was for Israel alone...and therefore had a special place in the collective heart of the nation. On the seventh day the the poured water offerings from the Siloam also reached their conclusion. This would have made Yahushua's offering to the thirsty all the more meaningful and pertinent on the 8th day.


To that end since parties are not satisfied with John 7:53-8:11, we will try to find more evidence of a weekly sabbath independent of the moon.

Quote:
Exo 16:1 And they set out from Ělim, and all the congregation of the children of Yisra’ĕl came to the Wilderness of Sin, which is between Ělim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their going out of the land of Mitsrayim.
This seems to me rather good evidence that the children of Yisra'el were travelling on what would be a lunar sabbath.

The manna provision has already been mentioned in previous posts...but I will reiterate.

Quote:
Exo 16:4 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “See, I am raining bread from the heavens for you. And the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, in order to try them, whether they walk in My Torah or not.
Exo 16:5 “And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.”

Exo 16:22 And it came to be, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Mosheh.
Exo 16:23 And he said to them, “This is what יהוה has said, ‘Tomorrow is a rest, a Sabbath set-apart to יהוה. That which you bake, bake; and that which you cook, cook. And lay up for yourselves all that is left over, to keep it until morning.’ ”
Exo 16:24 And they laid it up till morning, as Mosheh commanded. And it did not stink, and no worm was in it.
Exo 16:25 And Mosheh said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to יהוה, today you do not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 “Gather it six days, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there is none.”


This certainly does not prove the whole case, being that the sabbath described above in all likelihood was not a month ending Sabbath of the 29th. But the silence of the scriptures on a possible 3 or 4 day provision at the end of the month seems compelling that there never was any such provision...save only the common 2 day provision on the 6th day. There is not one mentioning of such an extended provision.

Moshe is explicit in verse 29:

Quote:
Exo 16:29 “See, because יהוה has given you the Sabbath, therefore He is giving you bread for two days on the sixth day. Let each one stay in his place, do not let anyone go out of his place on the seventh day.”


Another Example of travelling on Lunar Sabbaths?

Quote:
Num 10:11 And it came to be on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from above the Dwelling Place of the Witness.
Num 10:12 And the children of Yisra’ĕl departed, setting out from the Wilderness of Sinai. And the cloud dwelt on it in the Wilderness of Paran.

Num 10:33 So they set out from the mountain of יהוה on a journey of three days. And the ark of the covenant of יהוה went before them for the three days’ journey, to seek out a resting place for them.


Now to the Besorim:
Quote:
Luk 2:42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Yerushalayim according to the practice of the festival.
Luk 2:43 When they had accomplished the days, (21st of the 1st month) as they returned, the Child יהושע stayed behind in Yerushalayim. And His parents did not know it,
Luk 2:44 but thinking He was in the company, they went a day’s journey, and were seeking Him among the relatives and friends.


Once again there seems to be travel taking place on the regular lunar sabbath day of the 22nd. I will not suppose to be naive and not figure that the Lunar Sabbatarians probably believe that Yahushua's guardians tarried in Yerushalayim until the 22nd was over...but only the feast is mentioned...and in light of the above arguments about Sukkot and their position about the absolute separateness of the eighth day and the fact that the Israelites were ordered to tarry due to the weekly sabbath and YHWH did not order the Israelites to do so for Chag Matsah seems...unlikely. The burden of proof appears to be on them.

Finally the historical evidence still has not been contended with.

Quote:
...most people automatically figure with the power and the prestige of the Romans being accounted for that their calendar influenced the Yahudim to have a 7 day week in it's current format. Actually the opposite is true. The 7 day week of Israel was an extremely attractive idea in the ancient world and influenced the cultures it came into contact with. The original Roman week had 8 days. So the current worldy calendar actually is reflective of YHWH's 7 day week.

Evidence contemporary to the time of Yahushua (including Josephus, the book of Jubilees, the book of Enoch, the Qumram community's 364 day calendars, the church fathers, Philo (though lunar sabbatarians claim him for themselves), the Mishna and Talmud, and Roman Historical Testimony) shows that the Yahudim were keeping a 7 day continuous cycle. Yahushua went into the synagogues to teach and read from the scriptures on the 7th day sabbath and teach his poignent lessons against the P'rushim on the sabbath. He criticized them for the traditions of the elders such as the washing of the hands, the work restrictions, and the insane legalism of the prohibitions against healing and doing good on the Sabbath. As Bitnet pointed out since the historical evidence flushes out a 7th day sabbath consistent with Friday evening to Saturday evening in the time of Yahushua...that was what He was keeping it, and he never criticized any of the religious judaisms for keeping it...rather...how they kept it. The most reliable piece of evidence pertaining to the fact that the seventh day sabbath was in congruity with scripture was the Romish Churches simple change of the Sabbath from Saturday to the Lord's day (Sunday)....as a measure to dejudaize the faith of the Messiah and disassociate the Messiah from all things pertaining to the culture He was put in to revelate to the world. The heretical change by the Roman Institution and the stubborn holding on of the seventh day sabbath in large numbers of congregations until the 7th and 8th centuries are both compelling evidence. Of all the historical evidence that proves a 7 day continual cycle...what is striking is the lack of any shred of evidence that shows a dramatic shift from the lunar sabbath to the 7 day cycle sabbath. If that is the case all of the Yahudim that were scattered thoughout the earth...into Europe, Asia, and Africa...lost any trace of the lunar sabbath...(THAT IS SO EASY TO KEEP...according to Lunar Sabbatarians) and all the scattered groups...of one accord...set apart the seventh day. That's like Muhammad claiming that the Yahudim were able to corrupt scriptures by editing out the words Allah, Mecca, Muslim, and Islam.


The Historical evidence is averagely a couple hundred years before Messiah (reliably speaking) and a couple of hundred years after the Messiah. There is no evidence that a change from a lunar sabbath to a continuous 7 day cycle sbbath took place. It is astounding to think that diaspora communities of Yahudim as diverse as Yemenis to Chinese and Ethiopians to Crimeans were all of one accord as it pertains to the 7th day sabbath when they are so diverse and differing as it pertains to other practices and norms. Communities of Yahudim that existed abroad before the diaspora in places like Greece, Arabia, Egypt, and even as far away as India were practicing the independent and continuous 7 day Shabbat in accord with latter diaspora communities...even before the confusion of the expulsion at the hands of the Romans.

As for me the scriptual evidence combined with the historical evidence does it for me. The fact that I find YHWH to be a logical, loving Elohim that does not want to burden his creation with undue confusion and burden them with an ever changing rhythm that has no consistency seals the Lunar sabbath's fate for me. The motives of the lunar sabbatarians are troubling to me...it seems to be a dejudaizing in the opposite direction to that of the church... the lunar sabbath seems to be popular in an element that often wishes to supplant the role of Israel...It's a sort of Israel (which are really just counterfeit Kazaars anyway) can do no right sentiment....I am sorry if that offends but that is what I have observed. I am sure all these arguments can be dismissed and some sort of logic can be applied that would make them all for naught. I am certain Lunar Sabbatarians have answers for all of this...and I even already know some of the arguments they would bring. In the end the arguments offered seem to me to be highly speculative and of vested interpretation. In my own mind I have peace...I have faith in the Seventh Day Shabbat. As for anyone else that still may be seeking or unsure or thinks that I am wrong, suspect, sinister or grabbing at straws...YHWH bless you on your search for truth.

YHWH Imakhem

Shalom





YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline bitnet  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, February 26, 2008 5:54:42 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom shalom82,

Thank you for taking this into detail as a Yahudim could. Your arguments are exactly what was going through my mind! The instructions were clearly given since Sinai, observed and recorded since then through MessiYah Yahushua's time, and continued through the traditions of the Yahudim and Qodeshim till now. I cannot see where it was lost, therefore, it is up to the lunar sabbatarians to prove their case. It they are comfortable following their reason of time and schedules in spite of all Scripture thus far (and more not discussed), then it is up to them. My faith is in MessiYah Yahushua through the calling of Abba Yahweh, and I know that He kept and fulfilled everything accordingly and that we have not lost it in spite of what others claim. Is the sacrifice of MessiYah Yahushua and of the Yahudim and Qodeshim over the past two millenia in keeping the tradition of Truth to be meaningless because of how time is disputed since creation? Whoa! I have seen a beautiful picture with all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle put together, no piece is lost. If the picture is complete, then the extra pieces that are lying around came from a different box, especially if they are corner pieces!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.