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Offline real  
#1 Posted : Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:27:44 PM(UTC)
real
Joined: 1/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 36
Man
Location: jacksonville Florida

As a rule of thumb it might be good for anyone to keep in mind that if you can convert to it ........it must be evil. I love all four of my kids I didn't convert to that frame of mind.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:59:31 PM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
hehe I actually strongly agree with you :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline real  
#3 Posted : Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:43:25 AM(UTC)
real
Joined: 1/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 36
Man
Location: jacksonville Florida

Thanks warrior
Offline bitnet  
#4 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2008 10:51:06 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Hello All,

Conversion into the Family does require some sacrifice. But not in the way some expect of you. The following story from http://www.hebrew4christ...s_Set_7/jokes_set_7.html says something about managing expectations...

The Operation

Martin was in Children's Hospital awaiting an operation, sharing a room with another boy who was also waiting for an operation. The boy turned to Martin and said, "What operation are you having?"

Martin responded, "I'm here to have my tonsils removed."

"That's a great operation! I had mine out a year ago. They let you play computer games. They give you all the ginger ale and ice cream you want. They treat you like a King."

Martin looked at his companion and asked, "What operation are you having?"

The boy looked at Martin and said, "I'm here for a circumcision."

Martin paused for a moment and then said, "Gosh, that's too bad. That's a terrible operation. I was circumcised the first week I was born and I didn't walk for a year!"
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:11:52 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Actually, real, your premise may be a semantic trap. You didn't convert to loving your kids, of course, but could they "convert" to loving you? Look at my kids: two of them were born to my wife and I---no conversion there. Think of them as "Israel," born into the family. Their rebellion (hypothetically speaking) might break our fellowship, but not our relationship.

But there are nine other kids who were adopted into the family. Some, having emerged from their various teenage rebellions, "converted" and became real members of the family---they want a relationship with my wife and I. But others have estranged themselves from their adoptive mom and pop. They don't want anything to do with us. Yes, we still love them and would love it if they received the relationship we offered them, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. The choice is theirs. (Any of this sound familiar?) These adopted kids are like the Church, in the broadest sense---they were called out, but they're both wheat and tares. Some have "converted" and some have not. Not to a religion, but to a relationship.

Obviously, that's a fragile metaphor---I wouldn't try to stretch it too far. But I think I've made my point.

kp
Offline jojocc  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:04:53 AM(UTC)
jojocc
Joined: 12/1/2007(UTC)
Posts: 97

Shalom y'all!

(saw that on a plaque in Jerusalem and had to laugh)

I think that what we have stumbled across (by accident or not) is a problem with loaded words. A few of these to me are:

Christian - one who is enslaved by the religion of the Church.

Church - the shackes that bind many in order to prevent them from straying too far from man-prescribed religion.

Conversion - an idea put about by the church that once one has visibly/verbally conformed to said religion, one is alright Jack.

Evangelism - force-feeding (at least in my experience) of generally (there are exeptions) misleading information designed to 'convert' one into the 'christian' 'church'. Oh, and don't forget to keep a tally of how many people you personally have converted/saved.

Ok, I think y'all (heh heh) probably get my point by now. Loaded words are a problem that we as Yehudim need to ask for guidance over. We need to ask for help not to be offended/angry/anything else, at the use of these words. I'm still at the asking stage.

I would agree however with real, conversion does seem to imply in its modern colloquial usage, that one must leave one set of strictures and conform to another. The whole idea for us is that we don't do anything. We just let YHWH do his bit and sit back and enjoy the ride so, to speak.

I believe that those adoptive kids (to continue the metaphor) that love their adoptive parents do so because they were open and able to know them. As a result of this they were able to realise that the parents have their best interests at heart and to grow a loving relationship with them... Those who are not able to are filled with something else, and have their eyes shut. However I do not think that at any stage they 'converted' into being members of a loving family, there was simply mutual acceptance, rather than rejection, of a state of being.

Don't forget that there are also children born into a family that can reject the love of their parents, many in fact, did they convert out of the family?

Offline bitnet  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:30:22 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Yeah, Shalom to y'all and especially you jojocc,

I quite agree with your observation on the use of labels, and it is the way of the world to stick labels on everyone. People simply are what they are, and from our perspective, either called or not called. How they are called depends on their life experiences and whether they have access to The Word. "Converted" is another matter altogether, and whether in or out will depend on their perspective. That is not for us to judge until we see how their relationship with Yahweh progresses -- if they do not walk in the Way, we will know but we should not give up unless we know for sure that it is useless. Even then... The trouble people have is that without labels they feel lost. Do we feel lost? I did for a while then realised that "conversion" is rather personal, and the "belonging" part is up to Him who calls to determine whether I am in or out. Then again, we all know that all parents consider all their children "in" unless otherwise declared. So conversion is relative, as KP says. And people focus too much on the conversion of others rather than self, which is why I posted that little story about circumcision... Lighten up, folks, and look to your own experiences first before trying to "convert" others!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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