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Did Yahushua die on a Wednesday?
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Offline bitnet  
#1 Posted : Thursday, January 3, 2008 11:18:00 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120
One of the things I have had, and having problems with is the idea that The Sacrifice happened on a Friday as postulated by KP. In my past understanding, perhaps wrongly, I was given to understand that Yahushua was sacrificed on Wednesday, before a High Sabbath on Thursday, and rose again on the Saturday Sabbath thus keeping the three days and three nights portion of Scripture intact. This contrasts with the Friday-Sunday/Monday understanding that is currently held by many others.

In my search for knowledge about this again, I found a few sites with this information, and am still trying to ascertain the days in the calendar during the year of The Sacrifice based on what they write. However, while I work on that, I have pasted below some information from a website which I found. Please comment on this and its' impact upon prophecy in Scripture. It will greatly aid me in deepening my understanding of some timelines.


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http://www.awmach.org/FAQ/whh/lifeafterdeath.htm


I said before that this was a type of the coming death of Christ. By a show of hands as I count backward from Sunday morning, when did the resurrection of Christ occur? We know that when Mary went to the tomb on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, the angel who met her told her, "Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here; behold the place where they laid him.". The weekly Sabbath had ended on Saturday night at sunset. The bodily resurrection took place at some point after that and probably very shortly after that.

Next question. When did He die? Again, counting backward from Saturday night by a show of hands, when was Christ crucified? One of the reasons I don't bother with going to Good Friday or Maundy Thursday services unless I have to for choir, is that they perpetuate falsehoods in the name of tradition. By tradition, Palm Sunday records Christ's entrance into Jerusalem when he was lauded with Palm branches along the way. Maundy Thursday represents the time of the Last Supper. Good Friday represents the day that Christ was crucified. That is not at all what the Bible declares, folks.

Jesus declares in Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Eph. 4:7-11 declares that while His body was in the grave, His soul went into the bowels of the earth and took the souls of the righteous dead to heaven when He ascended. Since Christ declared that He would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights, counting backward from Saturday sunset, that puts his death at sometime on Wednesday and not on Friday. According to Matthew 27:45 there was darkness over the land from the sixth to the ninth hour which would be from noon to 3 p.m. on Wednesday. Shortly after 3 p.m., He gave up the ghost, and the veil of the temple separating the Holy of Holies from the rest was rent in two by God. This was a 60 foot long veil and quite thick. The rending indicated that the division between God and man was now not needed and man would have access directly to the Father through the blood of Jesus. That should have gotten some Jewish priest's attention.

A side effect of a death on Wednesday is that this pushes the Last Supper back to Tuesday or earlier.

How does this correspond to the scriptures? The scriptures say that He had to be taken down from the cross and buried quickly because the Sabbath was coming. Most in the Christian church today, think of that Sabbath as starting Friday at sunset through Saturday sunset. The Sabbath they were referring to was a special High Sabbath or High Holy Day due to the Passover celebration that was going on and was not a normal weekly Sabbath.

Passover (The Feast of Unleavened Bread) comes on the 14th day of the 1st month of the Jewish calendar. It starts at sunset and follows through to sunset of the Passover day. The Passover Sedar, which is the Last Supper that was mentioned above, would have been eaten on Tuesday. So Christ was executed on Passover. That is wholly fitting when you look at Passover as a type for Christ's death. On that day, a Passover lamb shed his blood to save those who were in the house where the blood was sprinkled from the death of all the firstborn that God was planning. Even so, Christ's blood on the cross is a sacrifice that saves all that accepts it and Him.

This Sabbath would have been the 15th day of the 1st month of their calendar. This Sabbath lasted from Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset and was celebrated the day after Passover. It was this special High Holy Day sabbath that is referred to in scripture that was upcoming that the body had to be buried before. This interpretation also gives the women a day to shop for the spices to anoint the body on Friday before the normal Sabbath so they would be prepared to go to the tomb to anoint the body early Sunday morning. They wouldn't have had an opportunity to do this on either the mid-week High Holy Day or the normal Sabbath. For more information see Antipas.net.

If we really want to celebrate the resurrection Sunday when Christ was risen, we should celebrate on the Sunday following Passover. This Sunday frequently coincides with the traditional date of Easter. But this is not always true. About 20% of the time it is after. Next year, for example, Easter will be celebrated on March 23, but the first day of Passover is actually April 20. Likewise, Pentecost Sunday should always be 50 days after the Sunday after Passover and not whenever Easter happens to fall on a particular year. There's always risks modeling your Christian Holidays after Pagan festivals.

This would make a human life span of approximately 33 1/2 years from October 4, BC 4 (Tishri 15, 3757 in the Hebrew Calendar during the Feast of Tabernacles) to Apr 24, CE 31 (Nisan 15, 3790 in the Hebrew Calendar). That's right - he wasn't born on Christmas either!

This time of crucifixion to time of resurrection thus corresponds directly to both Jonah's time dead in the whale's belly (the Bible never says he was kept alive all that time you know), and the time that Lazarus was dead and buried. Thus we have both Old and New Testament examples of God's power to restore life as a type to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. The only difference between Christ and the rest is that Christ didn't die again. All of the other people who were brought back to life died again. It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment. Some got to go through the experience twice. Even the two individuals who have not yet tasted death, Enoch (Gen. 5:22, Heb. 11:5) and Elijah (2 Kings 2), will come back to Earth in the time of the tribulation to be the two witnesses in Jerusalem after the anti-Christ takes over the temple. They will testify, prophesy, and witness of God to the people for just under 3 1/2 years. They will have power to devour their enemies with fire. When their period of testimony is finished, they will suffer death at the hands of the beast and they will lie dead in the street while everyone parties for 3 1/2 days. At that point, they will be resurrected bodily and will ascend to heaven. (There is that 3 day time period again Rev. 11:3-11).

- end -

Edit:

Another website (http://www.abdicate.net/cal.aspx) shows that 14 Nisan 3787 or 9 April 27 CE was the day of The Sacrifice, also a Wednesday. Rather confusing as to which was the correct year. I guess I'll have to go look again at FH to make sense of all of this. Maybe that's why Yahushua said that we do not know the day or hour... we've messed it up! Hahahaha! Sigh!

Edited by user Friday, January 4, 2008 2:14:54 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Offline bitnet  
#2 Posted : Friday, January 4, 2008 3:20:07 AM(UTC)
bitnet
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Thanks Swalchy! I'll go give that book another read as it has been some time since I last read it. It's just that all these claims are poppping up/have popped up and are proving to be a distraction. I know that these authors do not have much authority because they even miss the fundamental identity of The Messiah and the one True Name of our Creator, and the application of the Miqrym. I wish they would give us a chance to write in to discuss these matters so visitors to their website may get be given a better chance at understanding all these points.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Offline Icy  
#3 Posted : Friday, January 4, 2008 3:43:51 AM(UTC)
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You beat me to it, Swalchy. I'll add a bit that corrects the website's error on the birth of Mesiyah as well:

From FH Chronology Appendix:
Quote:
It would seem that the Feast of Tabernacles will have two fulfillments, reflecting the two last advents of Yahshua. Many Christians today realize that Yahshua wasn’t actually born in late December, but since the Gospel record doesn’t overtly give us a date, we’re left to piece together the clues. Note that since the birth of Yahshua as fulfilled in the Feast of Tabernacles came out of order in the Levitical program, it can’t be the final realization of the Miqra, but rather should be viewed as a precursor or partial accomplishment of the prophecy. Chuck Misler, in his informative online newsletter K-House News, offers the following insightful analysis:

“Most serious Bible students realize that Jesus was probably not born on December 25th. The shepherds had their flocks in open fields, which implies a date prior to October. Furthermore, no competent Roman administrator would require registration involving travel during the season when Judea was generally impassable.
“If Jesus wasn’t born on December 25, just when was he born? Although the Bible doesn’t explicitly identify the birthday of our Lord, many scholars have developed diverse opinions as to the likely birthday of Jesus.
“The early Christian church did not celebrate Jesus’ birth, and therefore the exact date was not preserved in festivals. [Actually, being Jews, they did celebrate it with a festival, as we shall soon see. Whether or not they realized this was Yahshua’s birthday remains a matter of conjecture.] The first recorded mention of December 25th is in the Calendar of Philocalus (AD 354), which assumed Jesus’ birth to be Friday, December 25th, AD 1. This was subsequent to Constantine’s Edict of Toleration in AD 313, which officially ended the government-sanctioned persecution of the Christians. The date of December 25th, which was officially proclaimed by the church fathers in AD 440, was actually a vestige of the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, observed near the winter solstice, which itself was among the many pagan traditions inherited from the earlier Babylonian priesthood.
“The year of Jesus’ birth is broadly accepted as 4 BC, primarily from erroneous conclusions derived from Josephus’ recording of an eclipse, assumed to be on March 13, 4 BC, “shortly before Herod died.” There are a number of problems with this in addition to the fact that it was more likely the eclipse occurred on December 29, 1 B.C. Considerable time elapsed between Jesus’ birth and Herod’s death since the family fled to Egypt to escape Herod’s edict and they didn’t return until after Herod’s death. Furthermore, Herod died on January 14, 1 BC. Tertullian (born about 160 AD) stated that Augustus began to rule 41 years before the birth of Jesus and died 15 years after that event. Augustus died on August 19, 14 AD, placing Jesus’ birth at 2 BC. Tertullian also notes that Jesus was born 28 years after the death of Cleopatra in 30 BC, which is consistent with a date of 2 BC. Irenaeus, born about a century after Jesus, also notes that the Lord was born in the 41st year of the reign of Augustus. Since Augustus began his reign in the autumn of 43 BC, this also appears to substantiate the birth in 2 BC. Eusebius (264-340 AD), the ‘Father of Church History,’ ascribes it to the 42nd year of the reign of Augustus and the 28th from the subjection of Egypt on the death of Anthony and Cleopatra. The 42nd year of Augustus ran from the autumn of 2 BC to the autumn of 1 BC. The subjugation of Egypt into the Roman Empire occurred in the autumn of 30 BC. The 28th year extended from the autumn of 3 BC to the autumn of 2 BC. The only date that would meet both of these constraints would be the autumn of 2 BC.
“Another approach in determining the date of Jesus’ birth is from information about John the Baptist. Elizabeth, John’s mother, was a cousin of Mary and the wife of a priest named Zacharias who was of the ‘course’ of Abijah (Priests were divided into 24 courses and each course officiated in the Temple for one week [at a time, twice a year], from Sabbath to Sabbath). When the Temple was destroyed by Titus on August 5, 70 AD, the first course of priests had just taken office. Since the course of Abijah was the eighth course, we can track backwards and determine that Zacharias would have ended his duties on July 13, 3 BC. If the birth of John took place 280 days later, it would have been on April 19-20, 2 BC (precisely on Passover of that year). John began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. The minimum age for the ministry was 30. As Augustus died on August 19, 14 BC, that was the accession year for Tiberius. If John was born on April 19-20, 2 BC, his 30th birthday would have been April 19-20, 29 AD, or the 15th year of Tiberius. This seems to confirm the 2 B.C. date and, since John was five months older, this also confirms the autumn birth date for Jesus.
“Elisabeth hid herself for five months and then the Angel Gabriel announced to Mary both Elisabeth’s condition and that Mary also would bear a son who would be called Jesus. Mary went “with haste” to visit Elisabeth, who was then in the first week of her sixth month, or the fourth week of December, 3 BC. If Jesus was born 280 days later it would place the date of his birth on September 29, 2 BC. If Jesus was born on September 29, 2 BC, it is interesting to note that it was also the First of Tishri, the day of the Feast of Trumpets.”

The only issue I have with these conclusions is that Elizabeth didn’t become pregnant the instant Zacharias stepped out of the Holy of Holies. He finished his priestly course before returning home to her (Luke 1:23-24). Pushing Mr. Misler’s whole schedule back fourteen days, though, makes everything fit like a glove: It would place Yahshua’s birth at the Feast of Tabernacles, also known as Sukkoth, two weeks after the Feast of Trumpets. This fits perfectly with Yahweh’s prophetic plan: Immanuel is God “camping out” among men. John, in fact, told us as much: “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) The word for “dwelt” tells the tale. Skenoo means “to tent or encamp, that is, to occupy or to reside, as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol of protection and communion, to dwell.” (Strong’s) Yahshua was born in the autumn of 2 BC, began His ministry when he was “about 30” (Luke 3:23) i.e. any time after the autumn of A.D. 29 (remember, there’s no year 0), and was crucified three and a half years later, in the spring of A.D. 33. He may have been camping out, but this was no vacation.
Furthermore, Luke records that “[Mary] brought forth her firstborn Son, [Yahshua] and wrapped him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger [a feed trough], because there was no room for them in the inn.” (Luke 2:7) The only place you’d find a manger is in a stable or corral, a place for housing livestock. It is not without significance that the Hebrew word for such a place is sukkoth, the very word used to describe the temporary shelters the Jews were to construct during the Feast of Tabernacles (or Booths), and thus the Hebrew name for the seventh miqra. The fulfillment of the miqra’s prophecy is therefore absolutely literal. Yahshua was born on Sukkoth, the Feast of Tabernacles.
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Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Friday, January 4, 2008 3:52:25 AM(UTC)
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Hi, Bitnet. Looks like Swalchy's got you covered, and Icy's waded in with pertinent info as well. Great thoughts, guys.

I'll only reiterate that if you are looking at the wrong year, nothing will add up. The only year that fits is 33. In that year, and that year only, do the prophecies contained in the Levitical "feasts" and the chronological imperatives of Daniel 9 coincide. And think about this: although the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) was always designated a Sabbath no matter where it fell during the week, don't you think that Yahweh is smart enough to arrange things so that in the year of the definitive miqra it would fall on a natural Sabbath? Another small point: the author from whom you quoted mentions "Palm Sunday," betraying his ties to traditional Roman Catholic chronology. But if you study the timeline contained in the Gospels (it's clearest in Mark) you'll find that the triumphal entry actually took place on a Monday---in perfect agreement with the requirements of the Torah: the 10th day of Nisan.

kp
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Offline PeterH  
#5 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 7:13:54 AM(UTC)
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Hi Bitnet. I know this subjuect has been dormant for a few months, but I've just joined the forum after many weeks devouring the articles on YY. Great stuff, as we say this side of the pond!

I've wrestled for years with the crucifixion/resurrection dates, Daniel 9 chronology, on the third day and how to squeeze Jonah's 3 days and 3 nights into a Friday to Sunday scenario ...

Derek Walker at the Oxford Bible Church has a possible resolution of these apparent contradictions (and other good chronological articles).

http://www.oxfordbiblech...gy/3-days-and-nights.php

what do you think?

Peter
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Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:50:58 AM(UTC)
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Hi, Peter, and welcome to the forum. I've gotta go with Yada on this one. To briefly recap, the phrase Yahshua spoke concerning the sign of Jonah was "the heart of the eretz," and as we know, eretz can me a great many things. By far the most logical solution here is "land," meaning Israel or Judea, not earth (the planet)---He would spend three days and three nights in the heart of the Land: Jerusalem. During the passion week, the Triumphal entry took place on Monday, but he left town each night for the next few days. But then on Thursday morning he came back to Jerusalem and stayed through Sunday at about dawn---not the full day. So that's Thursday (day and night), Friday (day and night), and Saturday (day and night)---three days and three nights in the heart of the Land.

kp
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Offline CK  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, March 19, 2008 5:57:38 PM(UTC)
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I feel like my brain is the size of a pea when I read all this stuff. :0)

I speculate that Yahuweh, in His awesome wisdom, might want to keep us guessing on this subject. He's a lot more specific about His Miqra though, ain't He?
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Offline shalom82  
#8 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 1:39:26 PM(UTC)
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Three days in the heart of the land is attractive and makes sense, but what makes me nervous about it is that this is the only place you can find it. I have been trying to find it elsewehere on the web and so far I have found no mention of it. The only things I can come up with are alternate passover days, inclusive reckoning, and that it was a Hebrew idiom. Not that confirmation makes it right or that no confirmation makes it wrong but it would be a comfort. Others might have realized it and written about it but I have not found it. This is what is troubling me and I suspect other readers. It would be fine with me to leave it all alone and pray on it...relying on my belief that Yahushua is the earthly manifestation of YHWH and that He is the brought forth word. I could easily rely on the hundreds of other prophecies and cryptic references to him in the Tanakh. I could easily put the sign of Yonah on the backburner...be prayerful about it and be optimisitc about understanding in this life and positive about the fact that if understanding does not come that it will come in the olam haba. But no, people have to go and make this an issue of salvation.

"If the church and the rabbis agree on the dating of Chat HaMatzot, then they also agree that Y'shua is not the Messiah, for he did not fulfill the very sign he gave to prove that he was!..."
~Glenn Mc Williams

I happen to believe that this is not a salvational issue. But obviously many or some in the Sunday Bikkurim/Shavuot camp do. In all honesty I think this is a terrible statement for MYadailliams to make even if his understanding is right.
It's like saying, "You believe in all of the prophecies about the Messiah, you believe he is the lamb of God, your righteousness through justifaction by faith is evidenced by your daily walk...ooh.. but your understanding about the sign of Yonah is errent...boy that's too bad for you...welcome to sheol"

I figure the reason why many are troubled by Yada's conclusion and cannot accept it is that it lacks the magnitude of the original conception of the sign of Yonah.

In the end just how important in the end...is this sign?

Shalom

Edit:this debate takes on another facet which is what part of the argument takes precedent...the Messiah's pesach offering death to first fruits resurrection chronology or the timing of Bikkurim (omer reshith)/Shavuot? They obviously are connected and fan the flames of each other but which issue should we be more concerned with?
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Offline CK  
#9 Posted : Thursday, March 20, 2008 4:17:16 PM(UTC)
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I don't possess the scholarly attributes that many of you do, but I have opinions, and these I will state. I can't get my mind around Yada's analysis. It does not compute. Sunset to sunset is one day in Yah's reckoning. Yahushua said 3 days, 3 nights. He did not say 2-1/2 days and 2-1/2 nights, nor did he say 2-1/3 day, etc. you get my drift. I mean no disrespect to Yada or kp. And I pray no offense will be taken.

Another thing that bothers me is that Scripture is specific about Yahuweh's Appointed Feasts, but then when it comes to the dating of the birth and death of Yahushua things become fuzzy. Could this not be for a reason? (Look how man celebrates the pagan days of Christmas and Easter - trees and bunnies and lots of merchandising. Look what Judaism has done to the Feasts and the Sabbaths over the centuries.) May be we aren't suppose to be able to reckon the exact days. May be Yahuweh knows what man would do if man knew. May be the birth and death days are not the issue. May be we are to concentrate on the message. This I know about our Father. His timing is perfect. He will reveal when it's time. In the meantime, I'm putting this on the back burner. I'm to pray about, and that's what I intend to do. I am done with this confusion.

I hear and appreciate what you are saying Shalom 82. Thank you.

And I appreciate Yada and kp. Your efforts for Yahuweh's kingdom is a blessing to many. Thank you.
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Offline Icy  
#10 Posted : Friday, March 21, 2008 2:06:24 AM(UTC)
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What if he wasn't speaking of the "earth" or the "land" but rather the three important dates: Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits. Maybe he was saying that he would be at the heart of the miqra. He would be the center point and the focus of it all. He would be the whole reason for the miqra. I don't have the tools to go into the hebrew words right now, but is this a possibility?
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Offline Truth Seeker  
#11 Posted : Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:27:43 PM(UTC)
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There are some excellent thoughts on the subject of "3 days" in this thread!
I have been hung up on "earth"(as in tomb/burial) for years. The idea of "land" sure gives me a different perspective. Icy's idea of the three dates is food for thought also.
The only thing I take for certain from the Gospel accounts is that Yahushua was gone from the tomb before Sunday morning.
I agree with the theory that Yahushua was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. There is so much symbolism attached to it.
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