Careful, folks. We've gotta define our terms. Yada is usually very careful to take "the religion of christianity" to task---the "religion" part being the problem. But when the believers in Antioch were first called "Christians," even though the word might have been used as an epithet against them, it meant something entirely different from the tradition encrusted dead or dying theological institution known today as "The Church." In other words, "the Religion of christianity" contains two components: christianity (the "wheat" in Yahshua's illustration) and religion (the "tares"). Let us avoid the temptation to redefine our words and then blame the world for not understanding what we mean.

That being said, yes, the religion of christianity is pagan to the core.

kp

Okay, here's the deal on the Greek word "Christos" from which we get the word Christian. Most lexicons will tell you that Christos means "anointed," as in "the Messiah." Yada has looked at the etymology of the word and concluded that it really means "drugged" or "whitewashed." I remain unconvinced on that point, for derivative words often take on technical connotations not latent in their sources. I understand Christos does show up once or twice in the Septuagint to indicate an anointed person. To further complicate matters, Christos doesn't actually show up in the earliest Greek manuscripts, but is indicated by a placeholder.

So, Coleridge, it all boils down to how much credence you place on the translation of the "Christos" placeholder as "Christ." If you're willing to agree with the vast majority of scholars and linguists, the word rendered "Christ" in our English translations, does indeed mean "Anointed." Yada, I know, doesn't buy it. I'm not smart enough to be dogmatic about either position. If pressed on the subject, I'll retreat to this: I think of myself as a follower of Yahweh's Messiah, His Anointed One. I do not ascribe to the "religion of christianity," however, for that, as you pointed out, is pretty much "hybrid pagan theology."

kp

There is a lot about 'christianity' which must revolve around the TRUE translation of the greek word pistueo (belief, trust rely on), at the minmal level of 'belief' then John 3v16 is very inclusive, except for that curious passage in John 2 v 23/24 where Yahushua did not believe them (pisteo) for he knew what is in the heart of man. There was a man....."

John 2 23/24 complicates the simplicity of John 3v16.

If simple 'belief' is the sole qualifier for entering into a relationship with Yehushua then we have to accept many 'christian' sects as part of the kingdom despite the paganism and ritual they follow.

However, if the correct translation of pisteo is 'to rely on' then this is much more selective. Most christians live a life of independence from YHWH. There is little or no reliance on him for anything, it is all provided by the church hierarchy.....

If the church relied on YHWH at all then it would very quickly be purged of its 'nicolaitians' lit. 'overcomers of the laity (the people)' i.e. priests vicars elders pastors.... because they would have no further use.

The only translation of pistueo which complies with old covenant understanding is to 'rely on' and this, of course, was implicit in the early post resurrection brethren who were OC based, so the NC writers would have taken it as read.

John 2 v 23/24 implies that there has to be a 2 way 'pistueo' in which man's participation is impossible, that is, until man's heart is transformed by the set apart spirit (i.e. born from above). The belief in John 3 v16 is a therefore starting point, not a finishing point as most 'christians' are told.

I don't think that the celebration of Christmas and Easter are core to bible believing Christianity. The rituals are not that well defined in non-Catholic denominations. These holidays are mostly known for Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and rampant materialism. The fact that Christians do honor these holidays even though most Christians do not understand their pagan origins does not damn Christians as pagans. I think many Christians cling to these holidays because they are the last public displays of Christianity that have not been beaten down by our secular society.

I think if you took the core of what is espoused on this site and the core of what "full time" Christians truly rely on in their hearts, I don't think there would be a whole lot of difference.

There are Christian missionaries all over the world right now entering harms way, going mano a mano with Islam, and they're doing it in the name of Jesus and Christ and God. Are we saying that Yahweh does not hear their prayers?

Coleridge,

I know where you are coming from Coleridge. Shaul was not bashful about confronting false religion. Yes, the religion of Christianity is rotten to the core. Acts 17:22-23 could easily describe any of today's church's. Being a religion about the MessiYAH does not make it any better. Christianity doesn't get a free pass just because it promotes belief in Israel's MessiYAH. But our condemnation of the Christian religion must be tempered with compassion and love for those who have been beguiled by it. I was once one of these.

Noah

The Acts 4.12 verse states that there is no other Name under heaven given among men by which we need to be saved.

I think that's different than taking the reverse position that if you do not call on the name Yahshua, instead calling him Jesus, that you don't receive the blessings promised through his life, death, and resurrection.

I think it would be a cruel hoax to withhold salvation to those who never had a chance to call on the name. Yada in YY brings out the point that there is a third way, not just heaven and hell, when you die. His point which I agree with is that Yahweh is not a cruel, sadistic creator. In the same way, I think there must be some leeway for ignorance and misinterpretation.

The only question is how far off the narrow path we can go. I know for myself that I may have solid doctrinal grounding and say the right names, but when I get pulled away from Yahweh by the world I am in far worse shape that someone who calls on Jesus and Lord, but doesn't drift as much.

ok so there is a leeway... does anyone have any idea as to what it may be? and if christians get one, then do muslims, krishnas, buddhist, taoist, or secular humanist? they all believe we worship the same God under a different name, and under our regional customs. that's fine with me... i'm not trying to keep people from experiencing eternal life. i'm not trying to say that a "good" person is anything less than that. is our goodness or the intent of our heart the key to eternal life? if you ask anybody if they thought they were good.... they would say they have problems like everybody else, but in the overall they think they are good. so if that's the ignorance leeway... then what's the purpose of getting to know YHWH at all? john said that those who practice "torahlessness" are not of elohim... the first point of the torah is to love YHWH... that's pretty much the first rule...

the problem is there is no leeway. Salvation is a relationship with Yahweh. Salvation is only a bi product of relationship. Eternal life is only a bi product. Its the same as any empowerment or gift by the Set Apart Spirit. Relationship is always first. Its not a case of - well you tried to walk that path but you had one foot off so I will let you in anyway... the question is "DO I KNOW YOU?" Remember the goats and sheep wasn't a question of us being who we are in whatever religion, it was a question of our relationship WITH Him. There is no formula to getting salvation - because salvation isn't the goal of my heart. If it is the goal of anyone's heart I doubt that they would ever get it. You should not marry someone for their house, you marry for love of being with that person... If you are in relationship with Yah - you happen to have a few added extras :) Like my wife for example... being married to me she gets a free lazy husband who irritates her and doesn't do the washing up very well... :P with Yah you get eternal life and more! (I know what I would choose LOL)

If you HAVE relationship, you HAVE salvation - its that simple. Thats why Yah is the only one who knows how your relationship REALLY is. If you have relationship - Yah can make use of you. It might be a journey to get to that point, I know it is for me at this point as I am trying to shake off the chains of religion... relearning from ground up, but I know in the future the time will be ready for me to be effectively useful for Him.

The path is narrow, and the path is something that only you and Yah REALLY know that you are on. The path is also a journeys. You cant really tell where anyone is, because its all about them and Yah. Yahweh knows of course, and thats all that matters really.

Whatever religion you claim to be under bares no significance to your relationship with Him. unfortunately, they mostly just distract you FROM your relationship with Him.

exactly coleridge :)

A piece of the puzzle may be Gamma that the great majority of the Christian world could care less about the Elohim of Israel, they give him lip service and say they have a relationship with him but for many all the cloak of christianity is is a badge, a groupthink and a routine. Remember that word for routine because for the great majority of people who identify themselves as Christian that's all it is. I don't say this lightly because this is the great majority of my family. They don't want their delicate equalibrium and sense of self disturbed in the least. Think of bagels and lox Jews who use a spattering of Yiddish and deny the Messiah...it's a routine...a sense of self. If they were dilligently searching the scriptures and communicating with Yahuweh asking for his spirit to guide them and see HIS scriptures through unbiased and fresh eyes they would be getting something totally different out of that experience rather than Laodicea's Protestantism or Sardis (Roman Catholicism). I am not judging individual salvation as I am observing the trends of the whole. I can see that evidenced in my own family. Most of them exemplify Laodicea. "This is a Christian nation!" I have people in my family who care more about Christmas and Easter more than they do the scriptures. I have very "pious" members in my family who would never even allow themselves to think something was wrong with the Protestant Church. They buy all the chicken soup books and all the other books that help them to be secure in their faith and read the scriptures through a protestant filter. They read already reasoning that Protestantism is right and how can they fit the scriptures into the mold they want it to fit into. Then we look at the ministers and the pastors and the priests. Many of these men have given up prosperity, recognition and comfort for the word of God and their Savior Jesus Christ. RELIGIOUS DEVOTION AND ECSTACY IS NOT ENOUGH!!! Does the body builder who "religiously" goes to the gym and reads his "scriptures" and watches what he eats to attain the Greek Ideal...does he do less? Does the Islamic cleric in Africa that is striving with all his might to stem the tide of Christianity do less for Allah? Does the Buddhist monk do less to show his devotion to the teachings of Buddha? Indeed!, do the animist witch doctors who have to take care of their villages needs and problems do less for their Gods? The rabbis, priests, pastors, shamans, mullahs, preachers, witch doctors, monks, and nuns all show devotion to their concept of God/Gods and all would claim to have some sort of communication/relationship with Him/Her/Them. That doesn't make them any less wrong. Protestantism may be less wrong but in that phrase they are still wrong. This is something which is completely avoidable. Read the scriptures with how can I say this....no mind. Read it without already putting it in a mold, read it as if you had never even heard of it before. Yes, I know it's very very difficult, but still it's simple. I love Yada Yahweh, but I was on this path long before I ever heard of Yada. I remember when I was 6 years old or so my church had a play called Christmas truths. It was an expose' on Christmas. It said everything that we talk about regularly on this forum about this heinous day. The adults said how wonderful it was, how it strengthened their faith, how it provided fresh insights and everyone went down to the fellowship room and ate birthday cake that said Happy Birthday Jesus and went on as if nothing had happened to shake their belief. I as a 6 year old was mortified. At about 12 years of age I started reading the scriptures on my own and at 15 years of age I lost my faith because I could not reconcile protestantism with the scriptures. I still payed it lip service, but I lost my faith because I could not reconcile the idea that Protestantism wasn't the way. I still thought that organized religion was the only way you could encounter Yahuweh's truth, and protestantism seemed to be the only one that was viable. Through a series of other bumps and turns here I am today...more secure than I ever was in my life that I have a relationship with Yahuweh Elohim of this universe because I relied on him through his scriptures to get me here. Most christians won't even take time time to examine their belief past a certain age and those who do go crawling back to their preacher for comfort and assurance rather than going forward and removing the blindfold. I can't judge them and their relationship but I do find their lack of persistence and their indifference...peculiar. Imagine having a wife that hates Golf and you go out and buy her a set of golf clubs for an anniversary gift. She says, "But, Honey...I hate golf, I never said I liked golf, I never lied to you and told you that I did." You say, "Well, your my wife and I'll be hanged if I have a wife that doesn't love golf. If you begin to play we can spend more time together and have a nice relationship, but that's only if you will take them and practice. Hey, by the way, I'm gonna start calling you Betty." She says, "Huh?! Betty's not my name, why would you do that?". You say, "Betty's a nice name, I like it. What does it matter if I call you Betty? You understand that I'm calling you...does calling you Betty change anything?....maybe I should just say Hey You! instead? Be thankful that I chose Betty!...by the way Happy Anniversary, I love you." You would say this guy is a first class jerk. He's obstinate and selfish. Now think about how this example exemplifies the average Christian's relationship with Yahuweh. Now we are not dealing with another flesh and blood human being but with the flawless, perfect, all knowing Elohim and creator of this universe.

As for the issue of knowing the Messiah's name, there is plenty of scriptural evidence that His name is Yahushua and there is even extra scriptural evidence. As for Yeshua here are a couple of ideas. Yeshua is most likely the Aramaic name for Yahushua or it is a post exilic abbreviation for Yahushua. Yeshua had been in common use since the repatriation of the Yahudim back to the land. Yahushua had come back into common usage about 200 to 150 years before the birth of Messiah. Yahushua was his given Hebrew name and it could be that people in every day life called him Yeshua or Yashua. Do I prefer the name Yahushua based on the evidence and feel that our Messiah is has earned the right to be called Yahushua, most definitely.

As for the issue that Protestantism isn't wrong at it's core, I guess it's all where you place the core. I don't think "merely" was the right word. We are talking about CORE issues here. The name of Yahuweh was a name which our Elohim said over and over again in his scripture was irreplaceable and essential. To practice and mix nicolaitan doctrine and overt Paganism with true relationship, service, and worship or to replace true communion/worship with the whore is CORE. Yahuweh hates fornication and hates the whore and he showed us how much he hates it over and over again and he does not change. Nations are layed low, exiled and destroyed because of it all throughout the scriptures. I would hope that everyone at this forum would be of the mind that we all had to be born anew. Just as newborns we had to learn our Father's name, we had to learn our Mother's name and our brother's name. We had to learn how to digest solid food and walk. BUT, I AM SURE YOU KNOW AND LOVE YOUR EARTHLY FATHER MORE NOW THAN YOU DID WHEN YOU WERE 18 MONTHS OLD, WHY SHOULD YAHUWEH BE ANY DIFFERENT? The issue of salvation is not so much knowing his name or knowing right away how to walk with him. It's the willingness to rely on him and to grow being guided by his nurtering hand. It's not so much the Christian that doesn't know the name of Yahuweh that scares me, it's the Christian who rejects the name of Yahuweh and who rejects the upright ways of Yahuweh that I worry about. Not having come into the knowledge of Yahuweh and his word, YET is radically different from rejecting it for the sake of comfort and acceptance within a group. Eli'Yahu, YashaYahu, and YirmeYahu were not concerned about such things and neither was Yahushua. That being said there is a certain point where not coming into knowledge is willful, obstinate, and stiffnecked. Ignorance is no excuse...especially willful ignorance. That a 40, 50, 60 year old or for that matter a 20 year old who has been a christian their whole life would not come to know the name of Yahuweh and the importance of not desolating it and the importance of walking in the upright ways of Yahuweh observing his feasts and sabbath is...not good. Lovers, families, husbands and wives, business partners and friends break up because they can no longer grow with or do not care to grow with their partner(s) anymore. The fact that most Christians don't want to grow speaks of a relationship that has grown cold no matter how much outward religiousity is manifested.

I don't think gamma that you should be frightened by or intimidated by large numbers. There was never any indication by Yahuweh that the majority would be right or that even the majority would be saved. Protestantism is a step in the right direction until you actually become a protestant immersed in Protestant doctrine instead of moving on...then you are just moving backwards like everybody else. But don't take if from me, take it from Yahushua...I think he used the word vomit.

Sorry I guess I was born a ramblin' man
Shalom

edit: There was one thing I forgot to say. There is a difference between striving with Yahuweh and inevitably coming up short or off the mark and willfully placing Yahuweh in a mold that suits you. Striving to use the names (perhaps a bit incorrectly) due to Yahuweh's admonishment and your desire to be an obedient son or daughter is obviously different than saying, "It doesn't matter, He knows I who I am calling on." What Yahuweh desires is an attitude of the heart. Remember when Yahushua told the story about the sons in the vineyard? I know it's not an exact ringer but there are some connections to the points I am trying to make. One said he didn't want to but repented and worked for his father and the other said he would but didn't. Love and relationship is in the doing not in the saying. Actions lend credibility to words not the other way around. I am not talking about salvation by works, I am speaking of the evidence of relationship through obedience and a willingness to spend some time with Abba. My father taught me how to fish, if when he said "Shalom82, let's go fishing", I said "ok, but then stayed home and knitted", I can't claim that my father taught me how to fish just because I said I would allow him to. Yahuweh made it clear how he wanted to spend time with us and what he wanted to teach us in his scriptures. If we say ok, but don't learn and won't do then what are we to Him and do we have relationship with Him? Yahuweh payed the price....now what are we going to do with the opportunity we have been given to be his children?

shalom82 its like you jumped into my head and put into words what i was trying to say lol

YHWH says 'I will be found of you'

Those who seek, WILL find, and I know from my being right here, that we stray many times, but the path is always from where we are now straight to YHWH, if we are prepared to take it.

Those who are deceived, have, by definition, stopped searching for TRUTH, usually because the lie is more comfortable.

There is nothing to be gained by being deceived, and anahilation awaits those who are deceived. YHWH is in the quality game not the 'bottoms on seats' industry as most of the christian religion.

Most christians of my experience, tell YHWH exactly what He needs, and then go out of their way to achieve it. Aided and abetted along the way by church establishments and hierarchies.

I do not know what YHWH understands by pistueo, but I do not think simple 'belief' in Jesus is enough! and the church obsession with 'salvation' as an end point of spirituallity is very damaging.

Edited by user Monday, December 24, 2007 8:15:52 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hello. I'm a complete newby here, exploring the concepts broached, and I have to admit ignorance. But something that Gamma said hit a nerve. We are talking about our supreme spiritual being ( not wanting to use the word God/Lord/Savior ). Surely He knows our hearts and minds when we discuss Him and converse with Him. For example, where I work I have a number of names. To some I am Mrs. Ryder, to others Natalie. Others call me Woody (long story!) and my young niece calls me Tallie. When each of these people call me by any of these names I know they are talking to / about me. Each person has a different reason for the name they use, and to each of those people that is the only name they can call me, for example those who call me Mrs. Ryder don't know my first name and if they did it would not be appropriate for them to use it. I guess what I'm trying to say that none of these names is wrong, they are all my names. If the only name I know for Him is 'God' or 'Jehovah' or even 'Albert', He knows I am talking to and about Him, and I cannot believe that He would love me less or seek to punish me just because somewhere down the line a thousand years ago a barley literate scholar made a mistake, or that I would be held accountable for an ancient religious leaders attempt to deceive. I fully appreciate the value and need for truth, and but I think the truth of intent is just as important as the written truth. I hope I have managed to explain myself properly, and that this message will be read as if from the hand of a child which is truly how I feel confronted with all this new learning and unlearning. Thankyou.

Thankyou for your words of affirmation Icy, I suddenly feel a little less stupid than I did an hour ago. I have always found it very difficult to put across in words the things that float around in my head, yet here a stranger understood me perfectly. Thankyou.
As to your point, I must admit I had not considered that and I suddenly feel foolish again, this learning and unlearning business is hard! I will consider your words well. Thankyou

This is indeed the topic that started the RCC on its ecumenical drive not long ago. IF, a very big IF, the Creator is all loving and compassionate and understanding, then He would know that the hearts are in the right place and that the methods are just different. But this is exactly what led to the plethora of world religions in the first place! Can everybody be right? Surely not! Coleridge's signature line says it all. This is not what He wanted or instituted! What is our locus standi for doing things our way and say that He must understand? Or does Yahuweh have a plan that includes all who are sincere but have been misguided?

I was concerned that my late parents, both very good, kind hearted people who would not harm anyone and who would help anyone in need, died as RCC members. I have siblings and good friends who are still RCC members. But I have stopped worrying or thinking about them as I understand that Yahuweh does have a plan for them if their hearts are right and that they will be given a chance and it shall be up to us to help guide them to understand the Truth when that time comes around. Imagine the opportunity to meet with family and friends again, with us from a completely different dimension, and being able to share with them more than we know today. Yahuweh's love is immeasurable and so are His ways, but here right now we are called together for a purpose.

That purpose is not a selfish purpose. It is not so that only we can simply enjoy eternal life because He chose us and we sought to answer His call. After the rapture we will have work to do! We will have responsibilities and power beyond imagination! And we must be able to temper that power and use it for the rest of creation. Which is why the whole creation earnestly awaits us! My mind boggles at this scenario! It really is overwhelming!

So when I see the others who have not been drawn well unto nigh, I try to share this message that there is only one Way and it starts with following His way today. How do they find the way if it is denied them? Not everyone has a PC or knows how to search out Truth. So are they "lost"? Someone postulated that Yahuweh does not make haste or waste, and that His plan for those who have their hearts in the right place will be given a second chance after the Great Throne judgement. Those whom He knows to be teachable will be placed on one side, whilst those who refuse Truth shall face obliteration, and those who want to continue to exploit others will be placed with their leader in an altogether different place.

Right now do we want to take a chance and walk another path when we know the way that He points out for us? What we do know is that we have a calling, and that will lead to much joy for the rest of eternity, but that that path does not include core Protestanism values and teachings which are still in error from almost any angle. We do not claim the high ground and think ourselves righteous and everyone else in error but Yahushua has shown the Way during His time here on earth and now with the Set-Apart Spirit we must be able to discern wisely. Sure we fall now and then, but which kid doesn't while learning to walk? So the bottomline is that we do not condemn them but the error of their ways.

By the way, have you guys thought about what to do for eternity? You can't sit around strumming harps all day long, can you? ;-)

Bitnet, you said something that reminded me of a thought I had the other day. This might get a bit too much into physics and or science fiction, but I was thinking about being in our new bodies, the ones that will be able to manuver through time and I wondered about us going back in time. Wouldn't we be compelled to try to influnce the lives of our friends and family that had not been saved? Well, I first figured there would probably be rules, so that we can not change time. You can imagine the trouble that could cause by us changing time. But then another idea occured to me: with infinite possibilities of choices throughout time there could be an infinite number of alternate realities where all of those different choices have been made. Then, us "changing" the past would only be a matter of shifting toward another reality. One thing would be constant always, and that would be Yahuweh. Well, that got me thinking farther, if he is constant, his plan must also be constant, only our choices differ, so with infinite possibilities, it could be possible that everyone is saved in at least one reality. But, on the opposite side of that, is that many would be saved many times over, it would be weird to have thousands or more of you hanging out. So, I postulated that perhaps in the new kingdom, all of those possibilites of "you" would be merged into one, at that point, there would be no need for alternate realites.

That was just a weird thought that had come to me.

I have had that thought as well, kp.

Icy, you may be the reason why these poor folks are claiming UFO sightings and abduction... you keep coming back as aliens in flying saucers to tease them. lol!