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Offline gammafighter  
#1 Posted : Monday, December 17, 2007 5:45:16 PM(UTC)
gammafighter
Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC)
Posts: 114
Man
Location: Hilo, Hawaii

The pastor at the church my family goes to sent me a few chapters from a book on the Ten Commandments. He sent me the three chapters on the Sabbath. The first two were pretty interesting, bringing up some of the questions i've been working through, which boil down to "What does the Sabbath mean in general?" and "What does the Sabbath mean in the Renewed Covenant?".

The third chapter wasn't so interesting. It attempted to prove that Sunday is the Sabbath, but it started off assuming that "the Lord's Day" from Revelation was Sunday. It basically said "Since the Sabbath is the 'Lord's' Sabbath, the 'Lord's Day' must be a Sabbath and since the 'Lord's Day' is a Sunday, the Sabbath is Sunday!" A great example of proving yourself right by first assuming your conclusion.

The only interesting part of the chapter was that it claimed that there were non-scriptural sources that talked about the conflict in the first or second century between Jewish "Christians" observing the Sabbath on Saturday and Gentile "Christians" observing Sabbath on Sunday. Because there is no Scriptural reference to the Sabbath being moved to Sunday, this would be the only evidence of such a thing.
This is the reference the author provides: "Didache 14:1, Ignatius to the Magnesians 9:1. For other references, see G. W. H. Lampe, A Patristic Greek Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1961), under kuriakos" I was wondering if anyone knew anything about this because I certainly have no idea.

My mind isn't completely closed to the idea of a First-Day Sabbath, I just find that the evidence is rather weak. There are a few symbolic arguments for it, that I would like to investigate further, such as the 8th day symbolizing new beginnings, like the Renewed Covenant and how the Feast of Sukkot starts and ends on Sundays which are to be observed as Sabbaths.

Of course if it turns out to be true, the question stands: Were the Jewish believers right or the Gentiles? Christians say that in the act of rising from the dead on Sunday and then meeting with His followers, Yahshua was changing the Sabbath, but that doesn't make too much sense to me. Wouldn't this have been the perfect time for Yahshua to say something about this change? Like "Hey guys, keep doing this on Sunday instead of Saturday."

I'm doubtful of this evidence because his other arguments are pretty weak. Also, the author condemns buying or selling on the Sabbath, but he thinks it's ok to go to a restaurant... even though that is buying and selling of food and service. So I really question his reasoning. Maybe he's talking about dine-n-dash?

Quote:
As with the case of infant baptism, Reformed theology assumes continuity between the covenants except where Scripture clearly indicates discontinuity.

Argh! sometimes this guy makes me so mad! Yahshua and all the early believers (in Scripture) were "baptized" as adults! How does that indicate that infant baptism should be the norm? And yet he completely ignores this principle of assumed continuity with the Sabbath! It is never "clearly indicate[d]" in Scripture that the Sabbath was changed.
Offline shalom82  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:49:20 AM(UTC)
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I got up early one morning and I turned on the TV as is my habit to watch the weather channel. The channel that happened to be on was some kind of Christian channel I assume. There was this minister preaching at this mega church. And he was talking about when he was a young man in seminary. I don't honestly agree with the concept of seminary or professional ministers or anything of that sort, but the man made a good point.

The Professor was speaking on some theological point, and all of the sudden one of his students rose his hand and said. "but professor, scholars say....." The professor forcefully and a bit angrilly said, "Stop right there young man!....I will not suffer your "scholars"...Scholars...will say anything. You can sit here and think any idiotic contrarian theory, and go out and find some scholar that will espouse it."

I am sure that's not exactly word for word, and for all I know, the professor himself was proclaiming a real zinger, but it is nonetheless a good point. We need not look very far into academic history to realize how many times the "scholars" have been wrong and sometimes insanely wrong. We know how stubbornly some of them will hold on to their pet theories, even when they've been proven wrong. I don't know if this writer claims to be a scholar but that's a bit beside the point. I am not going to say anything more at this point...but maybe you should ask your pastor why he doesn't use the scriptures instead of some book. Tell him a Catholics can also put up a pretty nice argument for Sunday.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline kp  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:35:20 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

One place we all have blinders on is the idea that we are supposed to gather for worship or study or fellowship one day of the week to the exclusion of all others---in other words, restrict ourselves in our meeting habits. All the Sabbath principle requires is that the seventh day of the week be set apart to Yahweh. I get the distinct impression that meeting together on that day, while a nice bonus theoretically, wasn't the heart of the issue, which is why the Torah didn't specifically require it. (The core issue of the Sabbath is ceasing to do our regular work on that day, teaching us that we can't, in the end, work for our salvation---we can only "rest" in Yahweh's grace).

A survey of the earliest habits of the ekklesia reveals something else. The Day of Pentecost fell---by Torah statute---on a Sunday, the first day of the week, fifty days after the Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened bread. And yet we see the Disciples all gathered together "in one accord" in Acts 2. And at the end of that chapter we read, "So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved." (Acts 2:46-47) How do you add to the called-out daily if you're only gathering together one day a week? The Disciples kept the Sabbath to be sure, but they met for "church" all the time!

I personally enjoy gathering with my fellow believers on the first day of the week for such things as worship, corporate prayer, Bible study, and fellowship. I like doing that on other days of the week as well. But my Sabbaths I reserve for Yahweh---directly, intimately, One-on-one, just Him and me spending the day together: the kind of close, quiet fellowship that's hard to come by in a church setting. To my shame and loss, I didn't always understand this. It's not the same thing as "going to church." It's waaaay better.

kp
Offline shalom82  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:48:08 AM(UTC)
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Well said kp

To start off with I just would like to make one observation about the resurrection and the sabbath. In succession there is Pesach, Matsa, and Bikkurim, Month 1 Days 14,15, and 16. These are irrespective of days of the week. They are special Sabbaths. Yahushua's fulfillment of Bikkurim was just that, a fulfillment of Bikkurim and not a mandate to change the sabbath. What People miss is how important the (natural) Sabbath of the 15th day of the first month 33 c.e. is to our shalom...our restoration, our peace, our justification. Yahushua rested in the tomb on the Sabbath (which was in addition to being the natural sabbath was also the first day of unleavened bread). We were cleansed and our leaven was taken away on that day. On the sabbath we cannot work in the temporal sense, which speaks of the spiritual sense.

Gamma, I have a quick question...does your pastor at your family's local church say that that sabbath has indeed been moved to Sunday from Saturday and now Saturday is a day of normal work and commerce? Or is he simply saying that Sunday as any of the other 5 common days of the week is an appropriate day to gather in a communal spirit and learn, break bread, and praise Yahuweh. I believe that this might be splitting hairs, but I think it's important distinction to make.

As kp said the seventh day remains an important shadow picture of things to come. We know that these shadow pictures are important because of what Paul said in Colossians 2:16-17

Here is a link that might be helpful:
There is a lot of information to sift through, but it's worthwhile

http://www.bibleplus.org/sabbath/bacchiocchi.htm

Kp, is correct that there is no mandate to have corporate worship services in the Torah. But Yahushua obviously wasn't against it. (Luke 4:16-21) (and in my opinion for what it's worth...which isn't much....because of the Mithraic undermining of the outcalling, I believe that if there is Sunday fellowship it should be proclaimed loud and clear that it is not unique from the other five common days and that there is nothing inherrently special about it other than the fact that it is a weekend day lends itself to convenience. It it must certainly be established that it is not the Sabbath. The seventh day and it's spiritual context must be understood by the congregation. It is my belief due to all of the above that Sunday would be a good day for Havurah groups(a small intimate household fellowship/break bread))

I completely agree with KP that the argument over the sabbath has led us to only esteem one day as the day of Yahuweh, when all days are his. In a perfect world with perfect believers we would esteem every day as correct an proper for the knowledge, communion, and fellowship of and with Yahuweh yet still esteem the Seventh day Shabbat over all.

Edited by user Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:25:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:53:37 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Well said yourself, Shalom. Just one slight correction: of the first three miqrym, only "Matsa," the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on Nisan 15, was designated a Sabbath. Passover (Pesach) and First Fruits (Bikkurim) were not. That makes its fulfillment in 33 a prophetic bullseye: that year, the miqra did indeed fall upon a natural Sabbath. Although it was designated a special Sabbath in other years, this is one more confirmation that Yahweh's plan of redemption was in play, and not just some pointless Jewish ritual.

kp

Edited by user Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:36:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline shalom82  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:07:33 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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oops!! Thanks for pointing that out kp.

For anyone interested in information about the specifics of the issue at hand you can look to ToM, Chapter 4, mitzvahs 116 and 117
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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