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Offline shalom82  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 5, 2007 5:22:45 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I invite you to read over this case and look into it more. According to Torah what should this man have done and was he living in a way according to Torah or was he in violation of it?

http://www.cbsnews.com/s...tml?source=mostpop_story
(I am not a fan of the media, but these are the actual transcripts of the call that I listened to last night)

Texas man kills burglars as 911 operator listens
Case may test state's self-defense laws

Associated Press

Published on: 11/26/07

Houston — The cha-chick of a shell entering a shotgun's chamber rattled through the 911 line just before Joe Horn stepped out his front door.

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Horn, 61, had phoned police when he saw two men break into his neighbor's suburban Houston home through a window in broad daylight. Now they were getting away with a bag of loot.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

He did.

Admirers, including several of his neighbors, say Horn is a hero for killing the burglars, protecting his neighborhood and sending a message to would-be criminals. Critics call him a loose cannon. His attorney says Horn just feared for his life.

Prosecuting Horn could prove difficult in Texas, where few people sympathize with criminals and many have an almost religious belief in the right to self-defense. The case could test the state's self-defense laws, which allow people to use deadly force in certain situations to protect themselves, their property and their neighbors' property.

'Do you want me to stop them?'

Horn was home in Pasadena, about 15 miles southeast of Houston, on Nov. 14 when he heard glass breaking, said his attorney, Tom Lambright. He looked out the window and saw 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and 30-year-old Diego Ortiz using a crowbar to break out the rest of the glass.

He grabbed a 12-gauge shotgun and called 911, Lambright said.

"Uh, I've got a shotgun," he told the dispatcher. "Uh, do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that," the dispatcher responded. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

Horn and the dispatcher spoke for several minutes, during which Horn pleaded with the dispatcher to send someone to catch the men and vowed not to let them escape. Over and over, the dispatcher told him to stay inside. Horn repeatedly said he couldn't.

When the men crawled back out the window carrying a bag, Horn began to sound increasingly frantic.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn said as a shell clicked into the chamber. "You hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going."

A few seconds passed.

"Move," Horn can be heard saying on the tape. "You're dead."

Boom.

Click.

Boom.

Click.

Boom.

Horn redialed 911 and told the dispatcher what he'd done.

"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

Lambright said Horn had intended to take a look around when he left his house and instead came face to face with the burglars, standing 10 to 12 feet from him in his yard.

Horn is heavyset and middle-aged and would have been no match in a physical confrontation with the two men, who were young and strong, Lambright said. So when one or both of them "made lunging movements," Horn fired in self-defense, he said.

Family members of the two shooting victims have made few public statements.

Diamond Morgan, Ortiz's widow, who has an 8-month-old son with him, told Houston television station KTRK that she was stunned by Horn's statements on the 911 tape. "It's horrible," she said. "He was so eager, so eager to shoot."

The Associated Press could not find a telephone listing for Morgan.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Icy  
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 6, 2007 2:52:36 AM(UTC)
Icy
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 641
Man
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
No, I don't believe it is. I think the thief is only required to pay back 4 or 5 (depends on what was stolen) times what he took. Remember that the Torah stresses restitution, not retribution, or rehibilitation.

If the man's life was in danger, then it is a different story. One could argue that he should have just stayed inside, and perhaps he should have for his own saftey, but I can't see fault in wanting to stop them, even if it meant holding them at gunpoint until the police arrived. So, the question is whether or not his life was really in danger. Few people would try to physically assult someone if they had a shotgun pointed at them. So, either those guys had a gun, or Mr. Horn was already set on shooting them.
Offline kp  
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 6, 2007 5:11:17 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Yes, Icy, Mr. Horn should have politely asked the two robbers for their identification, so they could be assessed the proper amount of restitution sometime in the future. Okay, I'm being sarcastic. The two thieves relinquished any rights to fair treatment the minute they entered the man's house. Men aren't "innocent until proven guilty," they're guilty the minute they break the law. The Torah's prescription for dealing with theft works best in a "small town" environment like early Israel, where anybody was likely to be known by everybody else. It was harder to be an anonymous thief back then.

But we're missing the point. The whole thing is a tragedy of errors from start to finish. Of course it's a tragedy that the robbers felt they could waltz in and take what belonged to another man, and a tragedy that they paid for their stupidity and rebellion with their lives (when they should have been on the hook for four times the boodle). But it's also a tragedy that Mr. Horn felt he had something worth defending with a shotgun, and prepared himself ahead of time for the eventuality of using it. That's why I refuse to own a gun: it would be an opportunity for my flesh to get the better of me in the event of a similar circumstance. In my calmer, more rational moments, I realize that I own nothing that Yahweh didn't provide, and I own very little I couldn't do without. If God chooses not to protect me from thieves, what business do I have protecting my stuff from them? Sure, I lock my front door at night, but only to provide the illusion of security for my wife.

kp
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