i've been looking around a lot trying to find out more info about the christmas story. i've heard some things about baby's being sacrificed and carolers singing to drown out the screams of the children.... i can't find that anywhere.... i keep getting the little saturnalia story. i know that christmas is older than that! i know that jer 10 makes mention of the christmas tree. that was babylonian. someone please let me have some links to this info. i'm trying to teach a study in a couple days. i have enough pagan info to go on already, but i would love to have that as well...


thanks in advance
coleridge

Read Hislop's Two Babylons and Koster's Come out of Her My People

Both available at this site for free:

http://www.menorah.org.za/online_free_books.php

You can also go to Lew White's page

fossilizedcustoms.com

There are some good articles there

I always offer this to people who say that it is intent/spirit that matters. "Ok, we are going to celebrate your birthday. Except for we are going to celebrate it on my birthday. We are going to eat the foods I like to eat and people will give presents that I like to you. We are going to decorate the house the way I like it to be decorated, and when we sing happy birthday I am going to blow out the candles, but when we sing Happy Birthday we are going to say your name. Infact you never even wanted or asked for a birthday celebration and came from a culture that had no desire to celebrate them and may have even held that they were dangerously close to paganistic practices. But we are going to celebrate your birthday anyway because we love you!"

That's exactly what we do when we put Messiah in the mold of sun god worship.

Then after that you can slip in the old Deut. 18:9 (YY amplified version)
"Indeed, when you are led into, and are included in, the land associated with Yahuweh your Elohiym, that was given to you, you shall not accept, teach, imitate, be trained in, instruct, be accustomed to, disciple others in, perform, commit to, observe, celebrate, profit from, bring about, ordain, or institute any of the disgusting religious ways, abhorrent rites, detestable idolatrous things, repulsive and loathsome rituals, or abominable festivals of these Gentile nations."

ISR
Jer 10:2 Thus said יהוה, “Do not learn the way of the gentiles,1 and do not be awed by the signs of the heavens, for the gentiles are awed by them.2

Deu 12:30 guard yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire about their mighty ones, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their mighty ones? And let me do so too.’1
31 “Do not do so to (worship) יהוה your Elohim, for every abomination which יהוה hates they have done to their mighty ones, for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their mighty ones.

Lev 18:3 ‘Do not do as they do in the land of Mitsrayim, where you dwelt. And do not do as they do in the land of Kenaʽan, where I am bringing you, and do not walk in their laws. (A valid verse considering that all paganism is intertwined from it's origin, and that many of the Christian holidays are influenced by these very cultures)

Eze 11:12 “And you shall know that I am יהוה, for you have not walked in My laws nor executed My right-rulings, but have done according to the rulings of the gentiles1 which are all around you.” ’ ”

Eph 4:17 So this I say, and witness in the Master, that you should no longer walk as the gentiles walk,1 in the futility of their mind,


1Pe 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the desire of the gentiles, having walked in indecencies, lusts, drunkenness, orgies, wild parties, and abominable idolatries,

Last but not least:
Mal. 3:6 "I am (Yahuweh), I change not...

Several of these verses have to do not with actually being a pagan BUT WORSHIPPING YAHUWEH IN THE WAYS OF THE PAGANS. Their arguments cannot withstand these truths.

For another piece of the puzzle look up Chemosh/Molech and his strange similarities to Santa

Christmas also evolves, it has changed within my lifetime, I can remember sleeping 3 to a bed as the family all met up at my grandmother's tiny house in Portsmouth (UK) in the 50's. As the only children (my older brother and I) present we were spoiled rotten. But because there was very little money around there was no booze. There was also no television, but there was usually a Disney Cartoon at the cinema, which my youngest aunt always took us to.

Christmas has become an excuse for a week long binge, with the TV based marketing creating a huge feeding frenzy in shops and supermarkets. The films are now violent and beyond the pale and family functions are not the same because everybody can use the car to 'visit' rather than stay over.

Here in UK, christmas has truly become xmas, we must not offend any religious minorities so everything tends to revolves around 'santa' and 'trees' rather than 'baby jesus'.

That video of that Tiffany put up is an excellent true and factual video. I really enjoyed it...if enjoy is the right word. If you want to learn about Paganism's Sol Mass in a nutshell, then that is the video to watch.

KP, that is a good point about the Separatists. and in fact I don't think Sol mass was widely celebrated in America until the Mid 1800's. I have a book on Pennsylvania history that talks about that very topic. That video on youtube said that Sol Mass was not imposed as a legal holiday on all the states until 1890. What's so unbelievable to me as I am sure it was with the Puritans, the Presbyterians, other groups is how this truth stares at people right in the face and they blatantly ignore it. I used to think it was ignorance (which ultimately is indifference), but it's disobediance caused by indifference. I think honestly that most people who claim to worship the Elohim of Israel could honestly care less about Him. It's habit and group identification and not much more. I heard a professor say one time that 60 percent of people on this earth believe in the day...whatever fashions, opinions, and sentiments that day has to offer. You can absolutely beat the tar out of somebody in an friendly and polite argument about Solmass. To the point where they have nothing more to say...and then a couple of months later they go out and buy that tree.

People say that the meaning has changed now and it's the spirit of how we "whorship" and commune with Yahuweh, but how can that be? Yahuweh has given us the natural world to understand the spiritual world. Think about if your Mother baked a bunch of cookies and She told you, "I don't want you to eat these cookies, not even one. We are going to have a wonderful meal in a bit and I don't want you to go spoiling it." Then, you go and not only do you eat one, but you eat the whole batch, in direct violation of what your Mother said. You are full and are uncapable of eating more and you now have a stomach ache and are a drain on the other people that are trying to enjoy the feast. "My tummy hurts....barf" Your Mother asks, "Why did you do what I told you not to do? Not only did you ruin your dinner, you ruined other people's as well." Then you say, "Well, Mom, as I was eating them I thought about how much I loved you, and how thankful I was for you always doing what you do for me. I thought to myself she would be so happy if she knew how much I was enjoying these cookies. That's actually the reason I did it. I hope you that brightens your day and brings us closer together." Okay, so I know it's not a perfect analogy or what not but I think you get the point.
I dread Sol-mass' coming more with each passing hour....Indeed, it's already here.

" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' "

Shalom- Thanks so much for that verse! I've looked for it a few times, but I couldn't remember the wording or any key words to search for. It's really compelling for those people that say "who cares how we worship God?" or "It doesn't matter the origin of the holiday, but how we think of it now." in reference to Christmas. Sadly, most people will simply ignore this verse of Scripture (which makes me question what their faith is based on), but there are rational people who will see Christmas for what it is.

thanks for all of that info... i really needed it. i've been dealing with this issue for quite some time now. in birmingham alabama we have a sabbath meeting, and we've all abandoned the idea of "sol" mass. well... most of us. i really appreciate any and all info you can get me