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Offline shalom82  
#1 Posted : Sunday, December 2, 2007 10:33:04 PM(UTC)
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What are your views on Hanukkah?

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Sunday, December 2, 2007 11:07:02 PM(UTC)
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added feast, from man not Yah. (obviously I could be wrong :))

As you can see my thoughts are quite limited on that :) What about everyone else?
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Offline Light1  
#3 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 2:44:38 AM(UTC)
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I think it is important because it represents the Jews restoring and cleansing their Temple from pagan defilement (making it fit for Yahshua to show up less than two centuries later). It also represents the struggle for religious freedom against state control.
Offline Icy  
#4 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 4:56:24 AM(UTC)
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A friend of mine said that somewhere in Scripture it says something about observing and remembering things that Yahuweh has done for his people, and Hannakah is one of those times, where the oil lasted even though they didn't have enough. Now, his viewpoint was coming from a messianic perspective, so I don't know how valid it is. Does anybody know about this piece of scripture he mentioned. . . I'll email him and ask, and maybe get back to you.

I tend to be in agreement with Robski and Swalchy though.
Offline jojocc  
#5 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 5:00:01 AM(UTC)
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I'm happy it's Chanukkah, I have a 4 day holiday. Other than that the festival comes under my heading of religious, and is therefore defunct. Like Purim, it is never a bad thing to remember when YHWH has intervened on behalf of his people, HOWEVER, most peoplr refer to it as 'the Festival of Lights' which has a wonderfully pagan ring to it don't you think?

I will remember the oil in the lamp, but I will not be lighting any candles.

Edit:

Just another quick addition, Chanukkah is Talmudic, not Tanakhi, it stems from the Maccabbean revolt against Antiochus IV after he had instituted Hellenistic Preists in the Temple and had ordered pigs to be sacrificed on the altar. While the Maccabbeans were under seige inside the temple, they discovered they only had enough of the specially prepared iol for one day, however it lasted eight days. Hope this helps.
Offline Light1  
#6 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 6:44:10 AM(UTC)
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Hmm, Somebody thought Chanukkah was important enough to be at the Temple when it was going on. :)

John 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. (NKJV)

Yahshua was in the Temple during Chanukkah teaching, so I think it's ok! :)
Offline Icy  
#7 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 7:11:24 AM(UTC)
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Just because he is there to teach doesn't necessarily means he agrees with it, he could disagree, and so is there to tell them how they are wrong. If you read further, you see that he says that he is Elohim and the people were ready to stone him for that. If you remember what Hannakah is, a memorial for the miracle Yahuweh did, then you could see that maybe he is telling them to stop paying so much heed to that miracle and look at him, the true miracle and all that he has done.

I could be wrong here, as I just have KJV version to read and only briefly scanned it.
Offline CK  
#8 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 1:08:49 PM(UTC)
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A little second guessing might be going on here. If it's mankind instigated, we may have our answer??? I'll have to do some Scripture checking, cause I think I recall something about Shaul being somewhere during Chanukkah also. Any hints?

CK
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#9 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 2:05:35 PM(UTC)
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Personally im not saying its bad or good, all im saying is its not one of Yah's appointed times - so I wont try and justify it like I tried to justify Christmas and Easter all my life. Personally the freedom I have experienced is just trusting my Fathers instruction, nothing more or nothing less - so I don't want to go into a big debate about whether or not it is correct, because if we need to have that discussion then its more likely than not. I don't need more useless baggage to get tangled in again.
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Offline shalom82  
#10 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2007 4:15:47 PM(UTC)
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As it exists today Hanukkah in mainstream Judaism is nothing more than a syncetized holiday that has adopted many of the customs of Christmas. It is now popular to give children gifts and put out big Hanukkiyas in the front yard with nice light displays. It is afterall...the "festival of lights". Many people give this Holiday the purpose and meaning of tolerance, and goodwill towards your fellow men, freedom of religion, and all that saccharine fluff. It's a holiday that for many (including Christians) means potato pancakes, dreidls, and "8 crazy nights". I think most people's knowledge of this day comes from that reverend scholar, Adam Sandler. But I believe there is something more to this holiday.

As was said before in previous posts, Yahushua the Messiah was at the temple during this feast to teach. It will be relevent later to remember that He is the Word of Yahuweh. I don't think that the scriptures and apostolic writings are often/if ever frivolous. If he came to Jerusalem and to the temple during this winter observance there must be a poignent reason he did so. If even for a moment to get the attention of the believer and the dilligent seeker on this 8 day memorial. I would just like to make one aside. We can see how these small references can make a big difference. Whatever is said about Paul or Shaul about he said or didn't say and what he advocated there is a reference that gives him away as far as how he saw the moedim. When he told the congregation in Corinth to observe Passover with unleavened bread (spriritual conotation, yes...but I think the Passover was a literal "as a matter of fact"), he was writing to the world that the Moedim were still relevent and important. So why where we given this nugget of Hanukkah to wrap our brains around?

As a backround to refresh the memory let us briefly review the Maccabean revolt. Antiochus Epiphanes, the leader of one of the Alexander's successor kingdoms saw trouble. He saw a group of people in Judea that would not be soothed. He found them to be a stubborn lot that just would not allow him to "civilize" them. From Syria he dispatched a large army to try and show the Yahudim the light that most of his subjects had already seen. He wanted to give them the gift of humanistic Greek culture. I was a culture that was "progressive" and cosmopolitan. They were religiously tolerant, philosophical, and worldly. They embraced philosophy, aestheticism, pederastry/homosexuality, and last but not least tolerance. Many of the hellenistic Jews opened their arms to this "modernizing" force. These conformists and colaborators adopted Greek dress, modified their names with Greek, and even went to far as to undo their circumcisions so they would wrestle naked in the gymnasiums that sprung up over the land of Yahuweh. Antiochus outlawed the moedim, and the Sabbath. The Greeks apalled circumcision as it marred the human form. That was also illegalized. Antiochus built a garrison in Jerusalem that was higher than the Temple just for spite. He wanted to show those Yahudim who was boss. Last but not least, he set up an Idol in the Temple. "The abomination of desolation" He slaughted a pig as an offering to that Idol. Many of the Hellenist Jews embraced these "reforms" of religious tolerance. It's not that they necessarily wanted to do away with Yahuweh. They just wanted non judgemental and tolerant and include other Gods. This would surely raise Israel's standing in the world as a place where all nations could come and worship freely. The majority of Israel's Yahudi society gritted their teeth and weathered the storm of assimulation. That was until Mattathias Maccabee had enough. A captain of the guard was sent to foist Antiochus' will on the rural population of Modein. With a contingent of Syrian Mercenaries he swaggered in and started messin'. He then sacrified a pig and ordered Mattathias the priest to come and partake of the swine. Mattathias stood there like a rooted tree. I can imagine him nearly purple faced with rage, shaking with a hatred that would not be soothed. He probably clenched his hands till his knuckles were white. An appeaser/coward sensing the tension came forward to take Mattathias' place. In a burst of rage, Mattathias fell upon the man and killed him. He then proceeded to kill the captain of the guard. The rest of the village, including his sons moved and spured on by the priest's zeal and fervor overtook the rest of the mercenary troop that had come into their village. This started the Maccabean revolt. After victories were won, the Yahudim who had judged, who had not tolerated, who would not assimulate went to Yahuweh's Temple with tears of Joy. Those tears of Joy soon turned into wails, tearing of clothes, knashing of teeth, and lamentation when they saw what the Hellenes and their collaborators had done. They restored the Temple and dedicated it once again to Yahuweh. It's funny how people who will not compromise, who will not back down from their trust and belief in Yahuweh are called puritans. The word puritan is spoken as an epithet with malice. These rebels were puritans. They guarded the Word and ways of Yahuweh. They were judgemental, they hated lies, deceit, and tolerance of falsehood. They would not allow the Yahudim to play the whore. They stood against everything that our decadent progressive societies stand for today. They could understand right from wrong and do something about it before it killed them. If that is what it means to be backward and primative, then I proudly wear that badge. We would do well to remember this Feast of Dedication and observe it's lessons even if we do not observe it physically.

As was covered in the Kerusso chapter of YY. Shaul tells us that we are to confront falsehood with indignation and passion. We are to fight against it with all of our might. We are not to conform, we are not to tolerate, and we are not to acquiecse to those who would tickle our ears and supplant Yahuweh's word with the doctines of men. Yahushua said he hated the practices of the Nicolaitins. He did not say, I really don't think those guys are taking things in the right direction, but hey, you know I guess whatever floats the boat. The Maccabees were not trying to reason with the Greeks, "Well it's not so much that I am against putting an idol into the temple but it would be a real budget strain, when you consider that we would have to hire an extra person to sweep around it and maintain it. That's something to consider." They probably screamed and yelled that it was an abomination and shouted the scripture from the top of their lungs. They had no problem with their source of authority. When we give ground on scripture we are admitting that we are not secure in our beliefs. Many commentators and debators claim to love Yahuweh but then make secular arguments for whatever they happen to be for or against. That's ok as an aside, but when it is their platform they are admitting the scripture has no authority. We as believers need to be comfortable with the idea of being uncomfortable. I would say that if we are comfortable there is something wrong. Somebody asks you where you stand on homosexuality. And you base your argument on scripture, many would probably give the familiar lines of tolerance and and todays culture of acceptance for whatever crackpot theory any run of the mill loon can espouse. Many either back down or go over to secular/reasonable arguments. We have to start being comfortable with the idea of saying, that an Elohim, named Yahuweh, spoke of the future as if it were past. He showed us his plan for us before it happened. He gave us the hints to science before we would even stop worshipping the stars. All of these evidences point to the fact that he loves me more than you ever will and knows more than you or I ever will so why should I not think, feel, and live according to what he has offered us in his scriptures. Hanukkah is a time when we can as the living temples of Yahuweh put our lives in perspective and look at how our sanctuary has been defiled. It's a time when we can rededicate ourselves to Yahuweh's desire and his ways. Our high priest and king deserves nothing less. The Hasmoneans were uncompromising in their vision of Torah as was set out by Yahuweh. They would not deal with or suffer the "progressive....modern" Greek invaders who wished to foist on them the Torahlessness, the pederasty, the sophistry, the cosmopolitan world view, the aestheticism, the worldliness that was Hellenism. They guarded the Word of Yahuweh and the life that Word had given them. They were puritans plain and simple.

The Maccabbean Revolt and the underlying reasons also give us a vision and an interim fullfillment of what Yahushua, Shaul, and Yahuchanan all spoke of. If it true that Daniel's end time vision saw fulfillment in the antagonist, Antiochus, but he was just a taste of what was yet to come in the end of days. I think that Hanukkah helps us to better understand Daniel and the end times. It is an illustration and an admonishment. I know that many "scholars" say that Daniel was completely fulfilled in this event, but it was just as I said an interim fulfillment. A preview of what will be. In that sense Hanukkah is prophetic shadow of the abomination of desolation that is yet to come. As for it not being scriptual, I think that by influencing it's reference in the apostolic writings Yahuweh knew that people who dilligently seek would come to know of the Dedication and would learn the lessons it had to offer.

Is Hanukkuah a mandated appointed time of scripture? No it is not. Is it relevent to the scriptures and our lives today? Yes it is. Should we celebrate it? There is no reason why why should not or shun those who observe it according to it's original purpose devoid ot the Paganism the modern celebration has taken on in direct conflict with it's origins. Chuck Misler has called Hanukkah the new testament holiday....not that I agree with everything Mr. Misler has to say, but he does make some valid points. Have I ever celebrated Hanukkah? No....Will I ever celebrate Hanukkah?...I don't know. But I will tell you I will observe the lessons it has to offer. I see Hanukkah as a national celebration of Israel. For those who believe as I do that we are grafted into the tree of Israel or maintained in the tree of Israel by Yahushua's offering...I see no reason why one could not share in on that heritage. It sure beats celebrating Christmas. As I have said before I acknowledge that Hanukkah is not not not not not mandated by scripture.

Perhaps by showing up at the Temple that had been defiled and compromised during the Feast of Dedication Yahushua then proclaimed that He and the Father were one as Swalchy pointed out was teaching us a lesson. That he was the Word. During that time which was memorialized there was a group that would not alter, corrupt, replace, or minimize the Word of Yahuweh or it's teachings. We would do well to do the same.

These are just my opinions

Shalom

P.S. I read this article last year and though I don't agree with everything it espouses (especially that one political party has the market cornered on spirituality. Politics is morally and ethically bankrupt and the only thing that can cure us of this sickness is when the "doctor" returns to cut out this cancer from civilization. But it makes some valid points that helped me to write this article. I would have been a little more scholarly in marking and noting my post, but I didn't figure this was going to be sold or graded and you can see the original to see what I may have included. I hope that will suffice for now.
http://townhall.com/colu...n_of_the_religious_right

Edited by user Monday, December 3, 2007 9:13:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline gammafighter  
#11 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:45:29 PM(UTC)
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I visited my old Church today because i'm back in Chicago to visit family and friends. In the High School Sunday School, there were some kids playing dredel (I recognized the "hay" character!). I don't know the rules, but apparently they were playing by the rules. I don't know if this is a good sign or a bad sign. :P

On a vaguely related note, I was asked by the guy leading it to share my views on Christmas, since I had already told him that YHWH hates it. So I got to share with the 10 or so high school kids about Christmas and Sukkot and everything. I don't know if they will do anything about it, but some of their reactions indicated that it wasn't something they would just ignore. I was pretty happy about that.
Offline shalom82  
#12 Posted : Friday, February 1, 2008 6:48:20 PM(UTC)
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The dreidl actually comes from a popular German beer garden game, teetotum. The traditional Hebrew understanding is that the Hebrew letters are an acronym for the phrase: A great Miracle happened there.
Quote:
These letters also form a mnemonic for the rules of a gambling game played with a dreidel: Nun stands for the Yiddish word nit ("nothing"), Hei stands for halb ("half"), Gimel for gants ("all"), and Shin for shteln ("put").
-wikipedia

The tradition states that as Antiochus' army was storming around Judea burning Torah scrolls, and hanging circumcised babies from their Mother's necks that young boys would study Torah and then when they saw the Greco-Syrians coming they would hide the Torah scrolls and play with the dreidels....highly unlikely.

Greco Syrian Mercenary: "Huh...I've been seeing those tops everywhere in this Zeus forsaken Country....wonder where all the Torah scrolls are."

The Rabbis codified a Gambling game for some reason...I have no idea why. Perhaps they just liked the game and figured they needed a few more traditions.



YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Truth Seeker  
#13 Posted : Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:48:49 PM(UTC)
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It's not a commanded festival,so we don't observe it at all.
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