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Offline gammafighter  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, November 14, 2007 10:39:36 AM(UTC)
gammafighter
Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC)
Posts: 114
Man
Location: Hilo, Hawaii

Preface: My (earthly) dad makes amazing baby back ribs. I've known about YY, FH, and PoD for a few weeks, but I just started looking into ToM today because I was interested in dietary laws. Now I understand that dietary laws haven't been revoked. If my family hadn't eaten ribs just a few days before, I know I would be pleading "Abba, Daddy pleeeeeease let me have ribs just one more time!" Fittingly, those ribs were the best my dad has ever made. At the risk of diminishing the meaning of it, I see this as another mini-miracle from my (real) Daddy. It's not on par with resurrection of the dead or healing leprosy, but it let's me know that Abba loves his little boy, since that has made it psychologically easier for me to accept the dietary laws.


So in ToM, KP explains that when New Covenant Scripture says that Yahshua "declared all foods clean" it was talking about animals that were clean and thus considered food, and that they weren't made unclean by improper slaughtering or by not washing your hands. I understand that. Because Christian culture has pigs and such as clean animals, they read those passages with those "glasses" or under that bias. If you look at it from a Jew's perspective, you would arrive at the same conclusion as KP. But the Acts passage is a little harder for me to get over.

Quote:
"Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean." And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common." (Acts 10:9-15)


I understand the interpretation that Yahweh was talking about Gentiles. I've heard a sermon on that. But it looks like Yahweh is pretty specifically saying that it's ok to eat these things.

Yahweh: Rise, kill and eat (this stuff).
Peter: No, I've never eaten anything common or unclean (like this stuff).
Yahweh: What God has cleansed you must not call common [I.E. that which you just called common has been cleansed by Yahweh, so eat it!].

I dont get it. I have no problems with dietary laws if that is Yahweh's will. But He told Peter to eat things that were considered unclean. Now you want to tell me that He didn't really mean it? What if Peter grabbed one of the little lizards out of the vision and started chowing down?


Now regarding beards: I might be misinterpreting what KP is saying in ToM, but it seems like he's randomly decided that Yahweh meant for the beard laws to be purely symbolic, when all the other laws are literal.

Quote:
"I get the feeling that Yahweh isn’t so much interested in condemning a particular fashion statement as He is in warning us not to emulate the world."


Maybe I'm misinterpreting KP's words or the English translation is insufficient (or both). The NLT I have reads:

Quote:
"Do not trim off the hair on your temples or clip the edges of your beards." Leviticus 19:27


So does Yahweh want me to grow my beard out??? If so, does this mean He wants me to never trim my beard?
(It was so much easier in the ignorance of the Church. You could just reject this as an "old law" that for whatever reason doesn't need to be followed, like the Sabbath.)
This is REALLY important (j/k) because I take college classes on the internet, I don't have a car, and the nearest town is a 20 minute drive away, so I don't get out much. I shave every couple of days or whenever I go out in public. It's been a few days since my last shave, so I could really use a shave. I was going to shave today, but i'm not so sure that's a good idea now. If i recall right, if you don't know whether something is a sin or not, it's best to not do it.
Offline shalom82  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, November 14, 2007 1:36:56 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Let's look at the passage again.

1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!"
4Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked.

The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea."

7When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.

Peter's Vision
9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (has Yahuweh made unclean creatures clean?)
16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."

21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"

22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

Peter at Cornelius' House
The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. 24The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."
27Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"

30Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' 33So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."

34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.


That's the whole context. Now if we look at things through a Hebraic lense we understand that the Yahudim as Peter said were dead set against mixing and even eating with Gentiles. They even put up a retaining wall in the second temple and put on that wall in Greek and in Latin that under pain of death Gentiles were not to cross that wall. The Yahudim called the nations and their people after contemptible creatures. Peter was at this point still following that tradition and it is at least mentioned once how he lapsed back into that practice because of being intimidated by the pharisaical subset within THE WAY. If you remember Shaul confronted him about this. This was a vision that had to do with mixing with the believing Goyim. And if you ask me nothing more and nothing less. Peter does not go to Cornelius's house and say boy I just had a vision that said I was allowed to eat all kinds of contemptible stuff. Fire up the barbeque, Corny, we are going to have ourselves a party. He specifically said:

"You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean." (there is no mention of food whatsoever in this passage, so I don't really know why it would be evident that this was about food)
I don't think it is any coincidence that Peter had the vision 3 times and then 3 men came to his door. Let's look at another thing. All throughout his life until that vision Peter had been eating a scriptually clean diet,(by his own admission (even after the death and resurrection of our Messiah Yahushua)) and this would include his time with Yahushua the Messiah. And we see how adamant he was about not eating things that were unclean. Why would he do that if Messiah Yahushua had no problem with or approved of eating scriptually unclean things. Let's remember that the Messiah was the man who Peter KNEW was Yahuweh in human form. I could be wrong but I don't think Yahushua would pick such a time to say that all food had been made clean. (after the resurrection) I think that he would have lived as a model and would have had his disciples live according to his teaching as he did with everything else. If we look at what Yahushua was doing on a regular basis we know he was confronting the religious establishment and their manmade precepts through basically....let's say civil or perhaps a little uncivil har har disobedience. He never broke Torah because he was Torah. It would be like you shooting yourself or me taking a knife and stabbing myself. He could not break Torah because he had to be the spotless Pesach lamb. Now that does not mean he followed all of the precepts. Because there were precepts that didn't apply to his living condition, but he certainly didn't break the commandments. Let us remember Malachi 3:6

Now I heard this a while ago and it rings true for me so you can take it or leave it and I have said it before. In the absence of a temple at Jerusalem we have all as individual believers become the tabernacles of Yahuweh where Yahushua is to administer as our High priest. We would never dream of dragging a pig carcase or a buzzard or a bushel basket of rats through the sanctuary that is stone and wood and gold. Why would we put it into our living bodies.

One more thing to think about. If Yahuweh had indeed made these things clean, then he did a very bad job. Which as we know Yahuweh El Shaddai doesn't do bad jobs. KP makes mention of a study that was done at Johns Hopkins University by a Yahudi Professor who's name escapes me, but anyway, contemptible and unclean creatures are still.....unclean and bad for you. btw Trichinosis is still a very real disease...

For what it's worth to you, here is my opinion. Every part of Torah that I can still keep is a gift from my Elohim...from my Abba, Yahuweh. I don't think of Torah in terms of what do I still have to do, but what can I still do. (for me to a point all the commands are still carried out at least spiritually, but we are talking about physical application in life) To know that Yahuweh loves me enough and cares for my wellbeing and happiness to give me teaching and instructions on how to live is breathtaking and at times a very sobering and tearjerking realization. I can eat according to Yahuweh's design, and that is a very good thing.

It's up to you what choice you are going to make, that's what's to beautiful about Yahuweh's design. You are presented with choice and you have to make the ultimate decision. Freedom of conscience is a beautiful thing.

Now about the beard issue. I have an unruly beard because I have always wanted to have an unruly beard and I have always loved unruly beards ever since I could remember. I remember looking in my family's heirloom scriptures that had pictures in them and they had these amazing paintings of the patriachs. Papa Abe was walking with his walking stick with a beard down to his belly. I just loved that. Perhaps some people take me for a judaizer or whatnot, but I have a beard because I have always loved them. I think (for myself personally, not as a mandate or advice) that it puts me in a mode of thinking and doing things. When it comes to scripture, and especially Torah I take a Karaite view. I am not saying that Karaites are right in all things, but their basic doctrine is is that it is the responsibility of the individual believerto act on his/her conscience and to interpret and carry out scriptual living according to the wisdom of Yahuweh and not of men. Some people take Tefillim literally and others take it figuratively. I will fellowship with either, and to me it's such a non issue that I don't even need to ask or declare that I would fellowship with them. What impresses me is that both camps are indeed carefully considering the Scriptures of Yahuweh and according to their Yah given consciences are living according to their interpretation/seeking. A lot of Yahudim, of course religious Yahudim have the long beards and the side locks. What bothers me about this is that I think for the broad majority of them it's putting on an act or they think that they have fulfilled all righteousness because they have done this. A lot of messianics especially Goyim are very seduced by the Chabad, the Orthodox, or the Haredim because they look the part. They somehow look righteous but I can assure you they are not. The "pharisees" (what they call themselves) have burnt down messianic Jewish community centers, interrupt worship services, interrupt community activities, are racist, are liars, are foulmouthed, and extremely arrogant. I am not speaking of all orthodox Yahudim. But there's enough evidence on youtube to make you really wonder question their assumed righteousness.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fUgARllsgOQ
That video is just a taste.
I have seen other videos where they scream and shout during messianic worship services
call black people niggers
make fun of overweight people
harass messianics at a community center
and yes indeed tried to burn down that very same center
They haved tried to bait messianics into physical altercations as well
type in Arad Israel on the youtube search box and you will get some interesting videos
Here's another link: http://www.messianicassociation.org/arad.htm
I love the Yahudim and anxiously await the time when they shout Yachdiy'el, when they realize that Yahushua is Yahuweh. What I am getting at, however, is the fact that righteousness is not in a beard or wearing black suits. I think if Yahuweh had his drothers he could forgo the side curls if that meant a little more compassion and less religiousity from his people. I have a sinking feeling that a lot of religious Yahudim will not be in that remnant of Israel at the beginning of the new age. So I guess what I am saying Gammafighter is follow your conscience that Yahuweh has given you that distinguishes you from an animal, and use it to the utmost, but more than anything else, which is something that I have had to overcome as my own personal weakness do not think that growing a beard or sidecurls makes you inherently better than other people or for that matter more righteous. But do it if YOU think that's what Yahuweh means, and if YOU THINK that is important to him. Sorry for the long reply. Hope there was something useful.
Shalom,
Jacob
Edit: I don't agree with everything that KP writes and some things I think that he is quite wrong about. I am sure he feels the same way about me. But I respect him very much and admire his writings. I know that he is a very intelligent and thoughtful person.
And please gammafighter don't think that I am picking. You said:
"Now regarding beards: I might be misinterpreting what KP is saying in ToM, but it seems like he's randomly decided that Yahweh meant for the beard laws to be purely symbolic, when all the other laws are literal"

I don't think that he meant the beard precept was so much symbolic as it was endemic of a larger picture. If I remember right ( I am not going to quote or go back and find the passage) He mentioned in his writing how the surrounding cultures had religious grooming practices that they used in pagan rites (like the mourning of the dead). What I think KP was getting at was that by your grooming practices you should not emulate pagans or as it applies to day involve yourself in a cult of personality. Say getting a certain kind of haircut because the members of your favorite band all have that specific haircut. I think that KP did something admirable. He sought to reason on Yahuweh's word according to his conscience and looked for a deeper meaning and I am sure applies that to his life. That's good enough for me, and I really think there's something to what he says on this matter.

P.S. as an aside or possibility. Peacocks have feathers, lightening bugs have glowing butts, and lion's have beards and Yahuweh has given most men the ability to grow the beard. Men....ahem....metrosexual men, are starting to spend all this money on facial products and hair gels and are even starting to wear makeup and then we go and shave the finest adornment(perhaps in Yahuweh's eyes) that Elohim has given us. AND IT'S FREE! Maybe according to Yahuweh's paradigm the beard is the sign of masculine virility and attractiveness and you should no sooner shave it than you would a lion's mane. Haha, I don't know, but hey why not.

Edited by user Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:51:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline shalom82  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:02:53 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

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Gamma,
Here is an article that I think you will enjoy and benefit from, because I know I have benefitted from it.
Shalom
Your brother in Messiah,
Jacob

http://www.tktorahkeeper.../reasonable-argument.pdf
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline J&M  
#4 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:21:10 AM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

If you study the scriptures on beards carefully you will note that the pagan tradition was to shave/trim the beard as a sign of mourning, and that Torah indicates that we should not follow the pagan practise.
Offline shalom82  
#5 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2007 5:17:36 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
That's true J&M and that is the point that KP made in TOM. I agree with him on this matter.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline gammafighter  
#6 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2007 6:33:23 PM(UTC)
gammafighter
Joined: 11/6/2007(UTC)
Posts: 114
Man
Location: Hilo, Hawaii

Thanks for your help everyone. I found a point about Peter's not-so-kosher vision in an article which sums up the argument pretty well right here.

This covers the points made here and another point I was having trouble wrapping my brain around. The command to "Rise. Kill and eat." was a metaphorical command. It wasn't actually about killing and eating the unclean animals, it was about the Gentiles. It's like when Yahweh told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. The point wasn't to actually sacrifice him. Yahweh was making another point through that metaphorical command.

As far as beards go, the passage in Leviticus doesn't really provide any context, so I was kind of confused by KP's analysis (haha, no offense buddy!). I'm still kind of pondering over that, but I've been a little busy.
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