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Offline James  
#1 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2015 2:06:28 PM(UTC)
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Shemowth 12:18 tells us that from the evening of the 14th day until the evening of the 21st day we should eat matsah. So the question is:

Is it from the start of the 14th day until the start of the 21st day, or from the end of the 14th day until the end of the 21st?

I would argue that the instruction pertains to the beginning of the day. Ereb’s first use is in Ba’reshiyth 1:5 where we read, “And Elohim called the light ‘day’ and the darkness He called ‘night.’ And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the first day.” So ereb/evening proceeded boqer/mourning in the day. We see this same wording placing ereb before boqer each of the days of creation. So from this perspective ereb is the start of the day.

Ereb like evening in English is an imprecise word. What is the difference between afternoon and evening? There is no set time that afternoon ends and evening begins. Afternoon has a definite start time, but no definite end time. At 5:00pm I could say good evening or good afternoon and both could be applicable.

Wikipedia wrote:
Evening in its primary meaning is the period of the day between afternoon and night. Though the term is subjective, evening is typically understood to begin when the temperature has noticeably fallen and other accompanying weather changes have occurred, such as increased wind speed and change in cloud types and sky colour, and lasts until an hour or so after sunset, when maximum darkness has been reached.


Ereb occupies that same subjective time period. And in a world where time clocks weren’t punched and hourly wages weren’t a thing precision was not needed. You closed shop when you had no one coming to buy what you were selling, and you went home when all your work was done. If you worked a field your day ended when it got too dark to work, or you finished what needed to be done. Our world works very differently today, which is why we use a precise hour of the day as the switch between one day and another. I imagine when Yah gave his towrah that most were not worried about a specific end to a day, and that even the something like the Sabbath was not started at a specific time of day, but rather whenever they finished their work and went home for the day that was when their Sabbath began.

It’s easy to see how as time became more and more structured over the centuries how questions of precision in regards to days came up, and that feed the Rabbi’s ability to convince people that they were needed to be the arbiters of such things leading to Rabbinical teaching that evening begins when X number of stars are visible in the sky. It’s the imprecision of Yah’s teaching that they grab onto as their justification, when the fact is if Yahowah intended precision he was fully capable of giving it.

In Shemowth Yahowah could have simply said from the start/end of the 14th to the start/end of the 21st, but he choose to use ereb instead. So I completely understand and have no problem if someone wants to celebrate matsah from the end of the 14th to the end of the 21st.

My reason for choosing to observe it from the start of the 14th until the start of the 21st are:

1) Based on my understanding of the day structure in scripture, using Ba’reshiyth 1 as my guide, it seems that ereb starts a day.

2) If the instruction was for the eating of Matsah to start on the 15th, why even mention the 14th? Why not say from the 15th to the 22nd?

3) Having the eating of Matsah start at the beginning of the 14th serves to even more intertwine Pesach with Matsah.

4) If you removed the yeast from your home at the start of the 14th day then as the Pesach lamb is being slaughtered and prepared so is the matsah that would be eaten at the feast which would begin on the 14th and continue on through the 15th until the morning of the 15th.

Again this is just my reason and my understanding. I look forward to hearing from others.
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Offline cgb2  
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 19, 2015 10:46:40 PM(UTC)
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I prefer to harmonize by numerous cross references, although word meanings are important.
Numbers 33 seems very precise when interpreting Exodus 12, Leviticus 23 and such.
Offline James  
#3 Posted : Monday, April 20, 2015 10:06:56 AM(UTC)
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I assume that the part of Numbers 33 which you are referencing is:
Num 33:3 So they departed from Raʽmeses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month, on the morrow of the Passover the children of Yisra’ĕl went out with boldness before the eyes of all the Mitsrites,
Num 33:4 and the Mitsrites were burying all their first-born, whom יהוה had smitten among them. Also on their mighty ones יהוה had executed judgments.

While this lines up the timing of the Pesach, the death of the first-born and the departure, it does not reference anything to do with when the eating of matsah began.
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Offline Bubsy  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 20, 2015 6:53:20 PM(UTC)
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Considering that in the instructions, the Passover lamb is killed in the late afternoon, then roasted whole in fire, it would generally not be ready to eat until well after sundown, meaning it would be the 15th of Abib before the Israelites would start eating the Passover lamb with unleavened bread. Continue the unleavened bread for 7 days from there, and it completes the 7 days at sunset on the 21st of Abib. At least that's my take.
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
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Fred Snell on 4/21/2015(UTC)
Offline James  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, April 21, 2015 7:46:37 AM(UTC)
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True, but while the instruction for eating the Pesach lamb was to eat it with matsah, it never says that the Pesach meal is the start of eating matsah. I'm sure they ate other meals during the 14th, breakfast and lunch, and matsah could have been a part of those meals.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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Fred Snell on 4/21/2015(UTC)
Offline InHisName  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, April 21, 2015 4:10:53 PM(UTC)
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Every time I consider this timing question, I come up with a new conclusion. This year I think I have the answer.Blink We all know the information is vague and/or can be interpreted several ways and one piece of text doesn't seem to agree with the next. For many of us we are 10+ years into this and still there is no one answer that we can all agree on.

My new conclusion is that the lack of definitive detail is on purpose and was necessary for the miqra fulfillment. If there were absulutely defined days for Passover and Matsah and Bikuwrym, then Yahowsha could not have celebrated the Passover meal on the day before being sacrificed as the Passover Lamb. A hardline definition of the exact timing of these days would not have made it possible. But the ambiguity around this issue that we are currently considering allows for that to happen.

And of course, it is another reminder from Father Yah that it is our interest, and our caring that is important, not the details.
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Fred Snell on 4/22/2015(UTC)
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 21, 2015 6:18:06 PM(UTC)
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Agreed. And if it were spelled out there would be no need to contemplate or think about it. You would just show up when and where and do what you are told. With it being the way it is we look at each word, put the multiple instructions together, examine and contemplate everything and come to what ever conclusion we come to (always with our minds open to the idea that we may be wrong and new evidence or new reasoning can change us).

It's why I started this thread so we could examine it together with our different persepectives.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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Sheree on 4/23/2015(UTC)
Offline Stewart James  
#8 Posted : Friday, March 30, 2018 10:42:33 PM(UTC)
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Your post is from 2 years ago, but still relevant now as it will be for future events, so I thought I would post my two penny's worth!

I note that 7 days you shall eat Matsah begining on the 14th until the 21st, so counting 7 days from the beginning, which is Pesach you come to the end of the 20th day as completing 7 days. If you count 14th to 21st, you will count 8 days! Until the 21st could be taken to mean that 21st is the day you don't eat Matsah, so by counting 7 days from 14th, you will come to the 20th!

Day 1 = 14th Pesach
Day 2 = 15th Matsah
Day 3 = 16th Bikuwrym
Day 4 = 17th
Day 5 = 18th
Day 6 = 19th
Day 7 = 20th end of Matsah if eating form 14th ??
Day 8 = 21st end of Matsah if eating from 15th - instruction is from 14th though??

I am confused because we are asked to eat Matsah for 7 days, Matsah it appears begins 15th, but we eat Matsah with the passover meal on the 14th, so what should we do? On this occasion until this is resolved I will eat Matsah for all of the days listed, just to be sure as surely it can do no harm and you don't fall short!

Help!
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Offline James  
#9 Posted : Sunday, April 1, 2018 2:07:20 PM(UTC)
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My understanding of this has evolved over many years and much studying. My current view is that the Pesach lamb was to be slaughtered during the afternoon of the 14th day, so that it would be cooked and eaten as the sunset ending the 14th day and starting the 15th. Meaning the Pesach lamb would be consumed on Matsah, making it impossible for one to benefit from one with out benefiting from the other.

My reasoning is as follows.
According to Shemowth 12:6 the lamb was to be slaughtered on the 14th between the eves/erebs. The question is what is meant by between the eves, and more importantly why that specific time as opposed to just saying on the 14th.

From what I have gathered there are four possibilities for between the eves.
1) Between the time sun sets and the time the sun rises, ie the start of the day.

2) Between the time the sun rises and the time the sun sets, ie the middle of the day or the portion of the say with light in the sky.

3) Between the time the sun starts to set and the time it completely sets, noon until sundown.

4) Between the time the sun starts to rise and the time it is starts to set, sun up until noon.

It seems no matter which understanding is applied however that the Greek text are contradictory. If the meal that Yahowsha ate with the disciples was the Pesach then his sacrifice was at the wrong time of the day. The Greek text indicates that what he ate with them was the Pesach which either means:
A. That the Jews of the day were keeping and wrong, and Yahowha didn’t correct them,

B. Yahowsha was not sacrificed at the appropriate time,

C. The Greek text is errant,

D. Or I am misunderstanding what is written.

D is a distinct possibility, B is impossible and A is highly unlikely. I am inclined to C, but I am open to D if someone can show me where I am wrong.

If we are to assume that the Greek text accurately records the time of Yahowsha’s sacrifice then number one above is out as a possibility for the meaning of between the eves. If my understanding of the Greek text is correct that places the timing of Yahowsha’s sacrifice sometime in the afternoon of the 14th day eliminating option four. So that leaves us with option two or three.

Both two and three are in accord with the timing in the Towrah. We are told in Shemowth 12 that Yahowah smote the firstborn at midnight, and that Pharaoh released them upon waking to discover the dead. The Israelites left right away, not even allowing the dough to leaven. We are told in Ba’midbar 33:3 that they departed on the 15th day of the month. So if the lamb were slain the afternoon of the 14th Yahowah would have come at midnight on the 15th and the Israelites would have left that morning.

Based on the timing of Shemowth and Ba’midbar as well as Yahowsha having to fulfill the miqra at the right time to be the perfect lamb, we can say that the “last supper” was not the Pesach. Furthermore Jews the world over today celebrate their Seder the wrong night.

Byn ha’erebiym is a phrase used in 11 verses. 5 of them are in relation to Pesach. The others are mostly in relation to two lambs being prepared one in the morning and the other Byn ha‘erebiym.

The exception being Shemowth 16:12 where Yah says that He gave them meat to eat byn ha’erebiym and bread for in the morning.

All of the verses speaking of the two lambs use the same phrasing that the First lamb was to be prepared in the morning and the second Byn ha‘erebiym. So there is an element of timing to it, and since the first was in the boqar, morning, and the second was Byn ha‘erebiym we can conclude that Byn ha‘erebiym refers to the evening ending a day and not the one beginning a day.

Furthermore Shemowth 12:10 says that none of the lamb was to remain until morning. If the Pesach was eaten the night starting the 14th then none remaining until morning would mean that when the sun rose on the 14th none of the lamb was to remain. If however the lamb was eaten as the 14th ended then none remaining until morning would mean that when the sun rose on the 15th none of the lamb was to remain. The second timing is consistent with Yahowsha’s fulfilment.
This would also sync with 12:18-19 and the evening of the 14th until the evening of the 21st being 7 days that you would eat unleavened bread. You would start as you eat the Pesach as the sun sets near the end of the 14th day and would continue until the sun set ending the 21st day.

The timing also syncs with the Shemowth account of the first Pesach. The Hebrews according to 12:22 ate the Pesach in their houses after painting the door posts with blood and were instructed not to leave until morning. Then upon waking and witnessing the dead the Pharaoh sent the Hebrews out, which we are told in Bamidbar 33 was on the 15th meaning they spent the end of the 14th and start of the 15th eating the Pesach in their homes which would mean that they slaughtered the Pesach at some point during the day of the 14th.

So neither the Shemowth dress rehearsal nor the Yahowsha fulfilment fit with the start of the 14th practice.

Looking at the oldest Greek manuscripts no references to Passover are extant in them. The closest is that Mat 26:19 is extant in P37, but only two words are actually readable in it and Passover isn’t one of them. So it seems to me it is entirely possible that there was no mention of Pesach in the original text, and the meal Yahowsha ate with the disciples was just a normal meal that He took advantage of to explain what was about to happen.

So with all that in mind I have begun eating my Pesach lamb with Matsah as the 14th day ends starting the 15th, and will eat Matsah for 7 days those days being the
1st day The end of the 14th to the end of the 15th
2nd day The end of the 15th to the end of the 16th
3rd day The end of the 16th to the end of the 17th
4th day The end of the 17th to the end of the 18th
5th day The end of the 18th to the end of the 9th
6th day The end of the 19th to the end of the 20th
7th day The end of the 20th to the end of the 21st

So in accord with Shemowth 12:18 from the 'ereb, evening, ending the 14th until the 'ereb, evening, ending the 15th and in accord with the Bamidbar and Shemowth timeing of the Exodus, and while it shouldn't really matter still in accord with the accounting of Yahowsha's fullfilment according to the Greek text.

Looking at this way everything harmonizes in my mind. I am opend to being wrong, but have seen no evidence thus far to make me change my mind. I will be preparing my lamb later this afternoon to eat with my family as the sun sets.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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JShamar on 4/1/2018(UTC)
Offline JShamar  
#10 Posted : Sunday, April 1, 2018 7:39:54 PM(UTC)
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Hey,

I was just thinking of this exact same thing and typed in "three days" in forum search and apparently you were thinking the same... My question that remains is when they say "at twilight" are they talking about the twilight where the 14th day begins, or the twilight where the 14th day ends? This one is turning my brain to mush but I think you're probably right about it being the 2nd twilight. Would also make sense that the jews have been doing it wrong because of course they have.... So I technically celebrated Pesach a day early this year and 2 days early if you're going by the moon, lol.

Thanks for your post, I made an account on the forum just to participate in this one.

Originally Posted by: James Go to Quoted Post
My understanding of this has evolved over many years and much studying. My current view is that the Pesach lamb was to be slaughtered during the afternoon of the 14th day, so that it would be cooked and eaten as the sunset ending the 14th day and starting the 15th. Meaning the Pesach lamb would be consumed on Matsah, making it impossible for one to benefit from one with out benefiting from the other.

My reasoning is as follows.
According to Shemowth 12:6 the lamb was to be slaughtered on the 14th between the eves/erebs. The question is what is meant by between the eves, and more importantly why that specific time as opposed to just saying on the 14th.

From what I have gathered there are four possibilities for between the eves.
1) Between the time sun sets and the time the sun rises, ie the start of the day.

2) Between the time the sun rises and the time the sun sets, ie the middle of the day or the portion of the say with light in the sky.

3) Between the time the sun starts to set and the time it completely sets, noon until sundown.

4) Between the time the sun starts to rise and the time it is starts to set, sun up until noon.

It seems no matter which understanding is applied however that the Greek text are contradictory. If the meal that Yahowsha ate with the disciples was the Pesach then his sacrifice was at the wrong time of the day. The Greek text indicates that what he ate with them was the Pesach which either means:
A. That the Jews of the day were keeping and wrong, and Yahowha didn’t correct them,

B. Yahowsha was not sacrificed at the appropriate time,

C. The Greek text is errant,

D. Or I am misunderstanding what is written.

D is a distinct possibility, B is impossible and A is highly unlikely. I am inclined to C, but I am open to D if someone can show me where I am wrong.

If we are to assume that the Greek text accurately records the time of Yahowsha’s sacrifice then number one above is out as a possibility for the meaning of between the eves. If my understanding of the Greek text is correct that places the timing of Yahowsha’s sacrifice sometime in the afternoon of the 14th day eliminating option four. So that leaves us with option two or three.

Both two and three are in accord with the timing in the Towrah. We are told in Shemowth 12 that Yahowah smote the firstborn at midnight, and that Pharaoh released them upon waking to discover the dead. The Israelites left right away, not even allowing the dough to leaven. We are told in Ba’midbar 33:3 that they departed on the 15th day of the month. So if the lamb were slain the afternoon of the 14th Yahowah would have come at midnight on the 15th and the Israelites would have left that morning.

Based on the timing of Shemowth and Ba’midbar as well as Yahowsha having to fulfill the miqra at the right time to be the perfect lamb, we can say that the “last supper” was not the Pesach. Furthermore Jews the world over today celebrate their Seder the wrong night.

Byn ha’erebiym is a phrase used in 11 verses. 5 of them are in relation to Pesach. The others are mostly in relation to two lambs being prepared one in the morning and the other Byn ha‘erebiym.

The exception being Shemowth 16:12 where Yah says that He gave them meat to eat byn ha’erebiym and bread for in the morning.

All of the verses speaking of the two lambs use the same phrasing that the First lamb was to be prepared in the morning and the second Byn ha‘erebiym. So there is an element of timing to it, and since the first was in the boqar, morning, and the second was Byn ha‘erebiym we can conclude that Byn ha‘erebiym refers to the evening ending a day and not the one beginning a day.

Furthermore Shemowth 12:10 says that none of the lamb was to remain until morning. If the Pesach was eaten the night starting the 14th then none remaining until morning would mean that when the sun rose on the 14th none of the lamb was to remain. If however the lamb was eaten as the 14th ended then none remaining until morning would mean that when the sun rose on the 15th none of the lamb was to remain. The second timing is consistent with Yahowsha’s fulfilment.
This would also sync with 12:18-19 and the evening of the 14th until the evening of the 21st being 7 days that you would eat unleavened bread. You would start as you eat the Pesach as the sun sets near the end of the 14th day and would continue until the sun set ending the 21st day.

The timing also syncs with the Shemowth account of the first Pesach. The Hebrews according to 12:22 ate the Pesach in their houses after painting the door posts with blood and were instructed not to leave until morning. Then upon waking and witnessing the dead the Pharaoh sent the Hebrews out, which we are told in Bamidbar 33 was on the 15th meaning they spent the end of the 14th and start of the 15th eating the Pesach in their homes which would mean that they slaughtered the Pesach at some point during the day of the 14th.

So neither the Shemowth dress rehearsal nor the Yahowsha fulfilment fit with the start of the 14th practice.

Looking at the oldest Greek manuscripts no references to Passover are extant in them. The closest is that Mat 26:19 is extant in P37, but only two words are actually readable in it and Passover isn’t one of them. So it seems to me it is entirely possible that there was no mention of Pesach in the original text, and the meal Yahowsha ate with the disciples was just a normal meal that He took advantage of to explain what was about to happen.

So with all that in mind I have begun eating my Pesach lamb with Matsah as the 14th day ends starting the 15th, and will eat Matsah for 7 days those days being the
1st day The end of the 14th to the end of the 15th
2nd day The end of the 15th to the end of the 16th
3rd day The end of the 16th to the end of the 17th
4th day The end of the 17th to the end of the 18th
5th day The end of the 18th to the end of the 9th
6th day The end of the 19th to the end of the 20th
7th day The end of the 20th to the end of the 21st

So in accord with Shemowth 12:18 from the 'ereb, evening, ending the 14th until the 'ereb, evening, ending the 15th and in accord with the Bamidbar and Shemowth timeing of the Exodus, and while it shouldn't really matter still in accord with the accounting of Yahowsha's fullfilment according to the Greek text.

Looking at this way everything harmonizes in my mind. I am opend to being wrong, but have seen no evidence thus far to make me change my mind. I will be preparing my lamb later this afternoon to eat with my family as the sun sets.


Offline Glfnaz  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 2, 2018 5:36:12 PM(UTC)
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I've pondered this many times as well. It is confusing, but maybe it's supposed to be. Maybe it's Yah's way of telling us it doesn't matter as long as you are seeking and doing the best you can to understand.
Offline JShamar  
#12 Posted : Friday, April 6, 2018 1:47:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Glfnaz Go to Quoted Post
I've pondered this many times as well. It is confusing, but maybe it's supposed to be. Maybe it's Yah's way of telling us it doesn't matter as long as you are seeking and doing the best you can to understand.


Yah and then there's also the thing where the last day of Matsah is supposed to be a Shababtown so does this make an even stronger case for Bikkuwrym being at the end of Matsah?

So confused right now.. Checked a bunch of sites on the internet and there's a million different theories on that too.. Some of them think that Shabuwah and Bikkuwrym are the same day lol

Offline Stewart James  
#13 Posted : Friday, April 6, 2018 3:06:16 AM(UTC)
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I have been pondering this all week long, going over and over again to understand!

In bar Midbar/Numbers 28 (family translation) it makes clear that 14th is Passover. Matsah is 7 days from the 15th of the first month, which takes you through to 21st. Therefore 7 days of Matsah. 1st day of Matsah and 7th day are called out meetings! Bikuwrym is also 16th of the first month. So there we have an explanation of the 8 days I had referenced in my previous post!

Taking all the scriptures into account, timing now seems clear to me!

What I am unsure of is what sacrifices or offerings we should make individually? I am alone and don't have 2 young bulls, a Ram, or 7 male adolescent lambs!

If you have any helpful comments for the closing 7th day and what offerings I am to make, if any, would be of great help! Thank you!
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease being honest!
Offline JShamar  
#14 Posted : Sunday, April 8, 2018 1:23:52 AM(UTC)
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*Stops chewing pizza*

Matsah goes on for 7 days after Passover you say?

j/k but I thought Matsah was alred over but apparently I have until next sundown to go? Good thing I didnt order the pizza tonight.
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