logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline James  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, February 3, 2015 6:57:31 PM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
I thought I would start a thread on here about Dabaryim 12. I figured I would use my response to an email that I recieved about it.

James wrote:
The first thing I notice that makes me doubt that clean and unclean are references to people who are clean or unclean is the change from second person to third person and then back to second person. Pulling an English translation for example

Deu 12:15 “Only, whatever your being desires you shall slaughter and eat, according to the blessing of יהוה your Elohim which He has given you, within all your gates. The unclean and the clean do eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.
Deu 12:16 “Only, the blood you do not eat, pour it on the earth like water.

yokelennu literally eat him/it is in third person while all of the yous before and after are second.

So while yokelennu could be rendered as "he/it eats, he/it may eat" or as "he/it do eat, he/it is edible, do eat him/it" the fact that it starts in the secondary and continues in the secondary makes me think that if clean and unclean were references to people they too would have been in the secondary, i.e. if you are clean or you are unclean.

Another thing I noticed while looking into this is that all of the instructions regarding food are written in the imperfect, meaning ongoing and continuous actions or don't make a habit of. So just as Yah's instruction regarding killing is literally don't make a habit of killing his instructions related to food are literally don't make a habit of eating xyz.

Interestingly the instructions is Dabaryim 12 are in the perfect meaning completed actions or actions limited in time. This supports Yada's view that this instruction is for a specific and limited time. It could also mean that as long as it is not an ongoing action, I think (don't hold me to this one, but it is what I get from it).

If Yada's translation is right, and not having checked it thoroughly enough for myself I am not prepared to say it is or it isn't, I don't see it as a contradiction specifically because Yah didn't say NEVER eat these his instruction was not to make habit of eating them.

Furthermore the inclusion afterwards of two clean animals makes it look to me like "the clean and the unclean eat it just as the gazelle and just as the buck." In the context of just like clean animal A and clean animal B followed by just don't eat the blood, it is hard for me not to see the clean and unclean as being references to the animals being slaughtered and eaten.

Sorry if this is a little jumbled I wrote it as I was going through it noting it as I went so it is a bit stream of conscious.
James


I haven’t had a chance to delve into it anymore yet, but plan on it. In the meantime I thought I would post this up and see what others thought.

Please people let’s keep this civil, we are all seeking the same goal here, to know and understand Yahowah’s word better. Please keep that in mind.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 4, 2015 7:02:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Remove a letter at the request of the author

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
thanks 1 user thanked James for this useful post.
matt on 2/4/2015(UTC)
Offline James  
#2 Posted : Friday, February 20, 2015 6:21:54 PM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
I thought I would share an exchange I had with Yada on this topic.

James wrote:
So studying Dabariym 12 I have come to a different conclusion than you. Much like our difference on the timing of Pesach I don’t see this as I am right and you are wrong. While I thought your translation made it a great confirmation of how I already viewed Yah’s Towrah instructions regarding food, after looking at the text and the context I see an alternative that to me seems clearer. I may be wrong, and thought I would share it with you to see if I am missing something.

There is definitely an exemption being spoken of, but I think that exemption is to the instruction in Qara 17 that anything that was slaughtered was to be brought to the door of the tabernacle and that the Lowey was to sprinkle its blood on the altar. Evidencing this is that scripturally and historically we see this happen. Especially as Israel grew and spread out this would become impossible, but while in the wilderness it was possible and served a purpose. So it would seem to me that this is how those who heard it understood this and applied it. While the “Food Laws” would become an important and huge part of Jewish culture and tradition at this time there was no kosher eating laws developed and if they had understood this to mean that unclean animals could be eaten then surely would have seen them eating unclean animals shortly thereafter, the Towrah is clear that they were not big on following restrictions. So to me this seems to the more likely intention.

I think there is validity to unclean and clean referencing people and not food. I know you pointed out that the verb was in the singular and not plural and therefore could not apply to the nouns clean and unclean, but that is not always the case. For example in Shemowth 4:29 we read that Moshe and Aharown walked… halak is in the third person singular, but clearly applies to both Moshe and Aharown. I see this as possible because of the nature of the “wa” in Hebrew which can convey with as well as and, so literally Moshe walked with Aharown. So the same could be true in Dabariym the unclean can eat with the clean.

Also according to the Anderson Forbes phrase marker analysis clean and unclean are the subject of the verb eat with it or him being the direct object. Meaning the clean and the unclean are doing the eating. This goes back again to Qara where in chapter 7 those who were unclean were not to partake in certain meals.

MY problem with this understanding however is that we see the subject coming before the verb when in Hebrew you typically see the subject after the verb. My other problem is with the change from second person you, in most of the rest of Dabariym 12, to the third person, in this clause, and then back. SO I am not 100% convinced on this, but I am leaning this way.

MY view on the food instructions is the same as it is on all of Yah’s instructions. There is a spiritual aspect and a physical aspect. The Physical aspect affects us physically and the spiritual aspects affect us physically. If I eat what Yah said not to I will have physical consequences, but my relationship with him is not effected one bit, however if I swallow religious muck then my relationship with Yah is affected. So while Dabariym 12 saying that it is okay to eat it would reinforce this, I don’t need to have it reinforced since all of Yah’s Word reinforce it for me.

Looking at your translation I understand how and why you came to it, and have not come across anything that makes me say that it is wrong, but this understanding (right now) is more convincing to me.

Let me know if there is something you think I am missing.

James


Yada wrote:
JB,

Why do you think He was only addressing just the Lowy and not all Yisra'el and on such a miniscule vs. important issue? And if so, how do you explain Yahowsha's statement?


James wrote:
I don't think it was only addressing the Lowy. The instruction in Qara 17 was to all of Yisrael. Pardon the English translation.

“Any man from the house of Yisra’ĕl who slaughters a bull or a lamb or a goat in the camp, or who slaughters it outside the camp,
Lev 17:4 and does not bring it to the door of the Tent of Meeting, to bring an offering to יהוה before the Dwelling Place of יהוה, blood-guilt is reckoned to that man. He has shed blood, and that man shall be cut off from among his people,
Lev 17:5 in order that the children of Yisra’ĕl bring their slaughterings which they slaughter in the open field. And they shall bring them to יהוה at the door of the Tent of meeting, to the priest, and slaughter them as peace offerings to יהוה.
Lev 17:6 “And the priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of יהוה at the door of the Tent of Meeting, and shall burn the fat for a sweet fragrance to יהוה.

This would also explain the use of two "clean" animals in Dabariym 12. The deer and the gazelle were not on the list that were instructed to be brought to the tabernacle, so in Dabariym 12 anything you wish to eat you may slaughter and eat, just as you would the gazelle and the deer. This lines up also with the clean and unclean eating it since these specific animals were to be "peace offerings" which we are told in Qara 7 that the unclean were not to eat. So the exemption is that these animals are no longer to be brought as "peace offerings" everytime they were slaughtered and therefore can be eaten by anyone, clean or unclean.

As for Yahowsha's statements based on a combination of my lack of understanding of Greek, my lack of knowledge of the Greek text, and the degree to which the Greek text have been edited I have taken to the habit of trying not to let anything in the Greek text influence my understanding. So I have not taken Yahowsha's comments in Mark and Luke into account.


Yada wrote:
We are going to agree to disagree on this one. But I appreciate your thoughts.


James wrote:
I figured that would be the case. I just thought I would share.


Yada wrote:
I'm glad you did. I'm especially glad that you affirmed the recognition that in Hebrew, subjects follow verbs. That is a killer for the opposition view. And also, as it was with Passover, neither you nor I found fault with the others translations or interpretations, but in the scope of all revelation came to different conclusions. And that means your interpretation is plausible as is mine. But as is the case with Passover, I've chosen the interpretation that is the most consistent with Yahowsha's.

I enjoyed reviewing your insights, as always.


James wrote:
I was thinking about this some more, and perhaps there is a reason for the odd and somewhat ambiguous sentence structure.

Hebrew typically follows the Verb-Subject-Object structure, so "Ate Yada pizza" So to definitively state one way or the other the sentence in Dabariym 12 would have to read

Eat clean and unclean it
or
Eat you clean or unclean

But what we see is Clean or Unclean eat it which has the verb in the middle either way you view it.

Everything in Yah's Towrah was written such that it has meaning to all people at all times. So like with the creation account nomadic Hebrews could get something from it and understand it, and the most advanced physicist today can get something from it and understand it. Perhaps the ambiguity in the wording exist fro a reason. Yahuwdi of Moshe's day could see it as a exception to the instruction regarding certain slaughtered animals to the tabernacle, something that would have meaning to them at that point, and we today can see it as applying to eating clean and unclean foods, something that to them would have made no difference, but for us today does.

The unusual word order here was throwing me off for awhile, but with this in mind this makes sense to me.

What do you think?


Yada wrote:
JB,

I concur completely.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
thanks 2 users thanked James for this useful post.
cgb2 on 2/21/2015(UTC), shamar emet on 2/23/2015(UTC)
Offline Sheree  
#3 Posted : Saturday, February 21, 2015 7:10:49 PM(UTC)
Sheree
Joined: 8/1/2012(UTC)
Posts: 63

Thanks: 69 times
Was thanked: 17 time(s) in 14 post(s)
could this be one of the so-called scholars
http://forums.thewaytoya...opic.php?f=17&t=5289
Offline Steve in PA  
#4 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2015 7:23:59 PM(UTC)
Steve in PA
Joined: 3/31/2010(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: PA

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Sheree Go to Quoted Post
could this be one of the so-called scholars
http://forums.thewaytoya...opic.php?f=17&t=5289


Thanks for the link Sheree. That was interesting and informative even though I would say the personal insults were not nescessary.
JB, since you have a good bit of practice in breaking down and translating Hebrew, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Swalchy's commentary. Thanks
thanks 1 user thanked Steve in PA for this useful post.
shamar emet on 2/23/2015(UTC)
Offline Bubsy  
#5 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 7:12:29 PM(UTC)
Bubsy
Joined: 1/2/2014(UTC)
Posts: 122
Man
Location: Los Angeles

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 22 time(s) in 19 post(s)
I wonder if the Leviticus 17:4-6 passages are, at least in part, part of the prohibitions on do-it-yourself sacrifices which Yahowah said were sacrifices to demons. That would be any sacrifice not made in accordance with Yahowah's instructions, as I recall off the top of my head. I could certainly see how sacrificing to demons would be cause for someone to be cut off from Yahowah.
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
Offline James  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 6:41:57 PM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Originally Posted by: eh steve Go to Quoted Post
JB, since you have a good bit of practice in breaking down and translating Hebrew, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Swalchy's commentary. Thanks


I have not read all of Swalchy's commentary yet, finding it difficult to get through all of the insults and opinions. What I have noticed is that he uses a very mechanical process to translate it. And what I mean by this is that he looks to whatever definition logos points too and takes the definition as given there.

There is nothing wrong with this, but I think a lot can be gained from first looking to every word that contains the same root letters. What I mean by this is ignore the vowel pointing and look at the letters that comprise the word and the definiton of every word made with those letters. The orriginal Hebrew did not have vowel points and so context alone was used to determine the meaning of the word. When logos points to a definition it is the definition as the vowel pointing in the MT defines it. Often time I find that other definitions fit the context better. A good example is edon vs adon both are identical in the orriginal text Aleph Dalet Nun. Edon meand upright pillar or upright one, while adon means lord or master. Context dictates which is choosen, but the MT may point it as Adon when in context Edon is more correct.

The other thing I don't think he does is look to the root words to understand the derived word. If the root word means the opposite of a definition given for the derived word you have to consider the likelyhood that the derived word is accurate or intended to mean what a particular definition says. Yada has talked about this in terms of Towrah. If you look at the root of Towrah the LAW definition makes no sense. Beyond this the root word can color or add to the understanding of the derived word, something Yada often does is is translate a word in the context of it's root word.

So from what I have read so far I don't think Swalchy's translations are wrong, but I think much is left unconsidered in them.

I was thinking that rather then just give my thoughts, beyond what I have just shared, that I would do something more helpful. I don't want anyone to take my word for anything. And if I respond line by line to Swalchy's commentary I would likely be accused of just defending Yada's translations, or making excuses for him. Besides Yada has explained a number of times now why he translated it the way he did, and if anyone has questions regarding why he choose a certain way they can email him. If there is something in Swalchy's commentary that sticks out to you as completely changing the meaning of the text, or that seems like Yada is just way off on a translation, email him and ask him about it, point out any evidence Sawlchy may have presented and any arguments brought up. Do not just email him the whole document and say here answer this, but bring up any specifics that are troubling you.

So on to my idea. Rather then take my word for, or Yada's or Swalchy's I thought I would compile all of the pertenant resources going through each verse. Then anyone is free to use it to determine what they think the text is conveying.

This will take me a long time to complete, and will be a lot of information for anyone who engages to process. This will give everyone an appreciation of what it is like to go through and translate, and the difficulties envolved. Those that have Logos can do this on their own, but for those that don't I am going to include every resource I use during my translations.

So far working over the last two hours I have managed to compile the first word. The rest should go a little faster as part of the time was trying to determine the best format, hint there is no good one other than the Logos program. I thought since this would be such a large and time consuming undertaking I would post it here and see if there is any interest.

So please let me know if this is something that you would like me to continue.
File Attachment(s):
Dabariym 12 breakdown.docx (66kb) downloaded 59 time(s).
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
thanks 2 users thanked James for this useful post.
matt on 2/24/2015(UTC), Sheree on 2/26/2015(UTC)
Offline Steve in PA  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 8:54:02 PM(UTC)
Steve in PA
Joined: 3/31/2010(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: PA

Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Thanks JB. I wasn't asking for a detailed breakdown of his breakdown... just your thoughts in general and you gave them. Again I’ll say the insults and the mean-spiritedness weren’t necessary in his commentary.
Offline chrud  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 8:44:43 AM(UTC)
chrud
Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Austin, TX

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 17 time(s) in 12 post(s)
James,

I for one would find that extremely useful if you're willing to do that.

-chrud
Offline Sarah  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, February 25, 2015 6:44:36 PM(UTC)
Sarah
Joined: 11/4/2012(UTC)
Posts: 103
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
James, yes, most interested in your research.
Offline Sheree  
#10 Posted : Thursday, February 26, 2015 9:45:01 AM(UTC)
Sheree
Joined: 8/1/2012(UTC)
Posts: 63

Thanks: 69 times
Was thanked: 17 time(s) in 14 post(s)
thanks JB,,I appreciate your translation there.I am not as concerned as others are with Yadas translation,my view on it is that Yahowah isnt going to condemn us to eternal separation from him for eating a piece of unclean meat..I dont push eating pig but if I do eat some myself I am secure in knowing it doesnt affect my salvation.
Offline James  
#11 Posted : Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:21:50 PM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,616
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
I am in the same boat as you Sheree. Rather Yada's translation is right or not what meat we choose to eat is not a determining factor in our relationship with Yahowah anymore than any of our other behaviours. If I eat a ham sandwhich or I lie and tell my sister I love the color she painted her house when I really hate it, it does not change my relationship with Yahowah.

So for me this is an issue than can and should be fun to discuss, which unfortuantly has not been. Which is why mch like Yada I am almost ready to just say let's all agree to disagree and we can ask Yah when we see Him.

I do like the idea of providing people with the material to look it up, but every time I sit down to try to do it I am unable to find an effecient way to do it in any timely manner, and I can not find a format that I think would make it even remotly helpful. Looking over the document I posted I would pull my hair out, which I really don't need to lose anymore, if that was what I had to work with. So I am unsure how much time I want to dedicate to that when there is so much else I could be doing, like getting back into ba'reshiyth (I know I know I have been horrible about this).
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.