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Offline James  
#1 Posted : Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:24:58 AM(UTC)
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I have been thinking this for some time, and talked about it a bit, but in an effort to get my thoughts straight I thought I would write about it here and get feedback. Feel free to disagree.

I think the necessary starting place when dealing with Christians is with Salvation. Christianity is a salvation centric religion. The first question is “are you saved?” If you answer yes that is all that matters. But as we know Yah is not preoccupied with salvation, He is seeking relationships. The preoccupation with salvation is why when you point out Yah’s thoughts on pagan holidays they don’t worry because, “God won’t send me to hell for that.” Or when you point out that His name is not Jesus you get, “Well he knows what I mean, he won’t send me to hell for that.” To them unless it will get them kicked out of heaven it doesn’t matter.

This is also why they tend to use straw men arguments. If I point out how Yah instructed us not to keep Pagan holidays, and condemns Christmas in Jeremiah the Christian interprets that as me telling them they are not saved because they celebrate them. Nowhere did I say that, but that is now the position cast on me by them. Personally I make a habit of never telling any individual that they are not going to heaven, that is not for me to say, I am only interested in telling them what God said about the subject we are talking about. But because they are salvation centric to them if I am correcting anything they say or do then it must be because I think that it will cause them to not be saved.

I used to think that pointing out the pagan roots of Christianity was the best place to start, but they never worry about that because the Towrah is unimportant to them. Then I thought that explaining the importance of the Towrah was the place to start, but since Paul told them the Towrah was irrelevant, that would get you know where. So then it came down to convincing them that Paul was false, which required simultaneously convincing them that the Towrah is important, but this doesn’t work because it comes down to the salvation issue, and to them it doesn’t matter how wrong they are unless it will cost them their salvation, and if you are telling them they aren’t saved they won’t hear a word after that. So now I think the best place to start is with relationship. I think this is a good start because most Christians claim they have a relationship with their Jesus.

If you can help them to understand that what God want’s is a relationship first and foremost, and that salvation is a byproduct of that relationship, then perhaps they won’t be as defensive when you point out the errors of their religion. You are saved because you have a relationship, you don’t get saved and then perhaps start a relationship. If you can get them focused on the relationship instead of salvation, then the discussion is in terms of what builds your relationship and what hurts your relationship. It’s no longer a question of do X and you are out, but it’s how many Xs can you have and still have a relationship. How many things can you love that God hates before there is no relationship. Relationships are all about sharing, if you can get them to gradually realize that they don’t share a lot in common with the God they claim to have a relationship with then perhaps they will acknowledge that they need to get to know Him better.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
thanks 2 users thanked James for this useful post.
seeker83 on 7/11/2014(UTC), matt on 7/12/2014(UTC)
Offline Martin  
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:45:36 AM(UTC)
Martin
Joined: 11/19/2012(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Mannford, OK

I find your post very profound.

I think you have nailed it with concentrating on relationship. Thanks for sharing this
Thank You
Martin Maynard
In Loving Memory of Our Daughter
Bailey DeLonais Maynard
January 13, 2005 - March 28, 2005
www.healingokhearts.org
S.I.D.S. IT'S REAL
Offline pilgrimhere  
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 5, 2013 5:50:35 AM(UTC)
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The starting point is definitely critical in approaching xtians regarding their fallacy. Your last sentence pretty much hits the mark. Unless a person is interested in knowing God rather than knowing what will keep them out of ‘hell’ as defined by their doctrine, then there is little chance of engaging productively.

James wrote:
Relationships are all about sharing, if you can get them to gradually realize that they don’t share a lot in common with the God they claim to have a relationship with then perhaps they will acknowledge that they need to get to know Him better.

Since xtians tend to repel any notion that Torah is relevant, I favor a sort of reverse approach. Instead of explaining why I do this or that, I ask why matters are not important to the xtian that are clearly important to God. “Why don’t you observe Yah’s festivals? Why isn’t Sabbath important to you? Why don’t you care to even recognize that God has a name? etc. Then responses to the “NT !” argument are summed up with, “Who told you?” Inevitably, the xtians must back themselves into a corner with Paul in opposition to ‘jebus’. If I demean Paul, there will just be an empty argument so I continue probing along the line of what is important to God or present a line of questions regarding Paul’s qualifications as God’s representative to the world. I think Yada refers to these as triggers.

I guess what I’m getting at is that until xtians are willing to question (answer questions) about their house of cards, they will not consider facts and will remain incapable of separating fiction from fact. Yah loves those who love Him and will be found by those searching – diligently. “Come let us reason together” doesn’t seem to be the xtian’s perspective of God. Logic doesn’t ‘feel’ as good as faith. If xtians will not answer the very questions they present to me about Torah, I will not waste our time.
thanks 1 user thanked pilgrimhere for this useful post.
matt on 7/12/2014(UTC)
Offline seeker83  
#4 Posted : Friday, July 11, 2014 1:05:44 PM(UTC)
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I find this post extremely profound and valuable. Only this*far removed from Christianity myself, I have been struggling with how to even talk to my Christian friends and family, as our perspectives now have so little in common. This is brilliant, I hope you won't mind me paraphrasing and posting on Facebook.
Offline InHisName  
#5 Posted : Saturday, July 12, 2014 11:28:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: James Go to Quoted Post


If you can help them to understand that what God want’s is a relationship first and foremost, and that salvation is a byproduct of that relationship, then perhaps they won’t be as defensive when you point out the errors of their religion. You are saved because you have a relationship, you don’t get saved and then perhaps start a relationship. If you can get them focused on the relationship instead of salvation, then the discussion is in terms of what builds your relationship and what hurts your relationship. It’s no longer a question of do X and you are out, but it’s how many Xs can you have and still have a relationship. How many things can you love that God hates before there is no relationship. Relationships are all about sharing, if you can get them to gradually realize that they don’t share a lot in common with the God they claim to have a relationship with then perhaps they will acknowledge that they need to get to know Him better.

James, I totally agree with your assessment up to the last paragraph (copied above). In my experience this is just another rabbit hole into the abyss of unthinking acceptance of the simplistic and warped religion of xtianity. They 'believe' the have a relationship with their god, they 'feel' his presence, the 'think' they know him. This line ends exactly where all of the others you mentioned end... THEY BELIEVE. I think the only hope for them is more along the lines of pilgrim, in that we need to point out the conflicts in what they believe.
Originally Posted by: pilgrimhere Go to Quoted Post

I guess what I’m getting at is that until xtians are willing to question (answer questions) about their house of cards, they will not consider facts and will remain incapable of separating fiction from fact. Yah loves those who love Him and will be found by those searching – diligently. “Come let us reason together” doesn’t seem to be the xtian’s perspective of God. Logic doesn’t ‘feel’ as good as faith. If xtians will not answer the very questions they present to me about Torah, I will not waste our time.

However since they won't accept what the TPP says (unless it serves their purpose) we need to show the conflict between Paul and their 'Jesus'. They can't deny that conflict with an open mind. And if their mind is closed to considering that conflict then we just aren't going to be able open it. [BTW this is an untested, unproved hypothesis, and may prove dangerous to your relationshipsConfused ]
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