This is kinda the same sort of thread as the Witch of Endor thread, in that what can Satan/demon's/spirits do and cannot do. I think that knowing the limits of Satan's capacity will shed light on scrip.

In FH Chap 18, " No More Mr. Nice Guy", we're given a potential scenario of the death and "resurrected" anti-Messiah as well as a scrip passage that has plausible application. "For indeed I will raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for those who are cut off, nor seek the young, nor heal those that are broken, nor feed those that still stand. But he will eat the flesh of the fat and tear their hooves in pieces. Woe to the worthless shepherd, who leaves the flock! A sword shall be against his arm and against his right eye. His arm shall completely wither, and his right eye shall be totally blinded." (Zechariah 11:16-17)
So here's the ques. Can Satan resurrect? I sincerely doubt it. Actually, I don't believe Satan has the capacity to resurrect. If He did, I figure He'd be doin' it all the time. So then, is the anti-Messiah resurrected? Again, I doubt it. So does that mean the AM was'nt dead in the first place? Or, was he not alive in the first place, but animated/re-animated by a demon. Yeah, I know. That's a real stretch, (the animated/re-animated part), and I don't believe it myself for the same reason that I don't believe Satan can resurrect.
How about this. The AM is a bionic man or a robot. According to some, it's just a matter of time before robots are indistingushable from humans and the only potential way to discern a bot from a human is the bot's abject lack of emotion, as in compassionless. Any reason why the tech to do this would'nt be there in 20 years? "This also a stretch", you say? Yep, but not as big a stretch as Satan resurrecting somebody.
Are there clues in the Zack 11:16-17 passage? The "Shepard" is certainly compassionless, or is it a more simple matter of no emotions.
What about the arm and eye. The arm is "completely withered" and the "right" eye is "totally" blind.
Oh well, just some more stuff to toss around.

Rev 13:3
3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

Does this passage say the wound was fatal? If so, the victim was "resurrected" or at least brought back to life which may not be the same thing. So then, can Satan heal so as to resuscitate/resurrect someone who is dead? How did this victim come back from the dead AFTER the fatal wound had been healed? "After" would imply a period of time since the injury reducing the likelihood of a CPR type come back.
It certainly appears that John said the wound was fatal and the AM came back from the dead. How? I don't believe, (perhaps errantly), Satan has miraculous power. Any scrip to indicate that He does?
So basically the scenario appears as this. The AM is assasinated and somehow is miraculously revived.

Yes it literally says that, but the interlinear is saying it is either literally or figuratively. I don't know Greek so.......

This type of stuff happens all the time in hospitals. My dad used to tell me stories about giving CPR and stuff in shifts and after about 30 minutes of this folks could be "brought back". So it may be exactly as you are saying - so close to death that the subject is "resurrected", but I'm not sure that means resurrcected in the same way that our saviour would have been. The question probably centers on the length of time that the subject was considered "dead" I guess and the key word is the healing word perhaps - I have therapeou or something.

Would it have said "rise from the dead" if it meant resurrection?

My Rev 13:3 quote is from the NIV. Of course, these are the same folks who, in their footnotes, mention that John 5:7 is non-extant in the greek manuscripts. "7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." Then they go ahead and include the passage anyway. They say nothing as to whether 5:8 is extant in the greek manuscripts and actually don't refer to it at all. So maybe it's not extant either, (as trans/published), and the publishers don't want to offend potential customers. At any rate, these are the passages generally used to verify the "Trinity".
So the point of this off topic sidetrack is that the NIV may be iffy.


So, back on topic. Apparently, the AM is faking it and His "death" and "resurrection" are simply more counterfeits.
Rats, I kinda liked the emotionless, (which would also explain his rejection of women), possesed/re-animated clone/bot thing. Hahahahaha...


shohn, In the Olivet discourse, Yahushua mentioned "Wars and rumors of wars". According to YY, (it I remember correctly), the greek word for "wars" is actually defined as "global conflict", of which there's actually only been one so far. WW1 was not truly global in that several countries were neutral and there were geographic theatres that were not involved. Not so with WW2. All countries were involved in one way or another as well as all geographic areas, even the Arctic/Antarctic.
So, your assertion that WW2 was a foreshadowing or at least has pertinence to End Times prophecy is accurate.
So far as Nazi persecution of "non-Aryans", (Jews, poles, slavs, etc.), there are indeed similarities with the Trib and actually all the historical persecution of the Ekklesia and Jews has been very much like the persecution of the Trib Ekklesia. That being economic/social ostracization which culminated/culminates in murder.
As Solomon, (I think), said, "There is nothing new under the sun". The techniques of persecution have been generally the same since the git-go.

Back on the Antichrist's apparent resurrection. I never connected these things before, but it is apparent from clues in Revelation that satan will be given unprecedented powers when he is thrown out of heaven. I think Rev 9:1 describes the same thing we see in Rev 12:7-9. Satan does battle with Michael, gets his butt whupped and is subsequently kicked out of heaven. But he doesn't leave empty handed. Because it suits God's purpose, he is given at this time the key to the abyss. The Fifth Trumpet describes the immediate consequence: the release of demonic "locusts." But could it be that the "key to the abyss" entails more than that? Could satan have been given other abilities as well? (They'd all have to be within Yahweh's purview, of course: God will never let satan off the leash completely.)

My point is that just because satan has never had the power to resurrect anyone before, it does not necessarily follow that Yahweh will not give him the power to do so in this one case. (Remember, he had to ask permission to touch Job, and that permission extended only to him.) The timing is right (just before the midpoint of the Tribulation) and God's purpose would be served by allowing satan to pull off this particular bit of deception. It would definitely provide a viable spiritual choice for the world's rebellious populations to consider. And Yahweh is "pro-choice," if you know what I mean.

kp

Here is a thought.

Didn't satan wrestle with a righteous angel over the body of Moshe (Moses)? (I don't have the scripture with me as I am at work, so I can't look up chapter and verse.) Now why would satan do that? Perhaps satan wanted to do just something spectacular. Somehow resurrect or empower the body in a zombie like way to use Moshe's body to delude and lead astray the multitude and to prevent them from entering Canaan to defeat his seed?

Any thoughts?

Yah Bless!

YahWarrior
Harry

Yah! i like the way you study kid! as far as the disputed body of moses...i've always thought that it was referring to the tanakh.. the body of moses' writings. if you know anything about islam you will find that there really was a wrestling over the "body" of moses. in which muhammad tried to turn all those characters into muslims. just a thought...

Whatever satan's motives were for contesting Moshes body I don't believe included bringing Moshe back to life. If satan could do such a thing, I believe he'd be doing it. Think of the possibilities, all the tinpot pagan tyrants of the pre-flood ages as well as the post flood ages, Muhammed, Engels, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, the Hildebeest, (oops, she's still with us).
I'm probably mistaken, but I suspect Moshe's body was hidden to prevent His tomb from becoming some sort of a shrine, at least that's what I've heard somewhere along the line for what it's worth. Anyways, how do you suppose satan would've moved it? He has no hands and even if he did, I suspect shovel work would be way beneath his dignity. Hahahahaha.......

You know what gets me? If Satan knows what Scripture says about him, what he does and what happens at the end, do you think he goes along with it because it's the truth and he has no choice to or because he's so mad at Yahweh that he doesn't bother to know what the Word says and does what naturally comes to him?

Elohim is not a liar, so His Word is True, but if Satan could pull the joker he would back out completely, trying to discredit Elohim because His Word would not come true then. Satan is in a catch 22 situation, whether he wants to or doesn't want to the outcome is still the same, he will do what the Word says he will do, and in the end he loses.

I know my outcome will not be good if I turn my back on Yahweh, therefore I continue to love Him. But Satan knowing his outcome is not in a place to choose since Yahweh's Word is true and the outcome must be fulfilled.

Regarding Moses' body: imagine if the Jews knew the location of his tomb? They would probably declare that place the center of Israel and thereby disregard Jerusalem. They would at the very least make a yearly pilgrimage to the shrine or, God forbid, a must-do-once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage to see the place where Moses lay. I think Elohim was protecting them from worshiping the dead, making an idol of him, not that they don't already.

Shalom all,

The first beast of Revelation Chapter 13 is a real, literal, fire-breathing dragon that will be released from the Abyss by Ha Shatan (Satan) in order to forcibly rule the earth, and to wipe out the Set-apart Ones (Yahuweh's people).

Again, the first beast of Revelation Chapter 13 is a real, literal, fire-breathing dragon that will be released from the Abyss by Ha Shatan (Satan). Ha Shatan is described as a red dragon in Revelation 12, but Ha Shatan is NOT the first beast described in Revelation 13! Ha Shatan is furious that he cannot kill the woman in Revelation 12, so he releases an ancient, literal, fire-breathing monster (Leviathan) from the Abyss (Rev. 13) to make war with the set-apart ones and rule the earth.

The second beast of Revelation 13 is Nimrod, the false prophet/anti-messiah/man of lawlessness/son of destruction. He will be "resurrected" from Sheol, inside the earth, to conquer the earth with Leviathan and Satan, and to deceive and destroy the whole earth.

Shalom,

N

Thank you for the welcome Rob,

Yes, these are my conclusions. I depended on Yahuweh to show me prophetic truth, and over time He answered. Didn't learn this from anyone else. Most people raise an eyebrow at statements like this, but I can prove it from the Scriptures and also ancient history. Again, thanks for the welcome.

Favor and peace to you,

N

Rob,

Although Leviathan the 7-headed dragon is prolific in ancient history, I found that out AFTER I came to the understanding that He existed and is mentioned many times in the Scriptures, under several different names. Click on "Beast's Identities" at this website: (website link removed Topics that advocate false teachings and/or false teachers will be removed)

peace to you,

N


Edit: appologies for edit - Rob

According to Job 41 Leviathan is invincible to any weapons made by man. Only Yahuweh can slay him.

N

Edit: KP,

This is from my website, and I wrote it a while back, so I did not have you in mind when I wrote it, but it is a serious rebuttal of what you believe: that there are no "monsters" "dragons" or any other such creatures that are going to be given power on the earth.

Spiritualism and giving the Scriptures symbolic meaning, just because we do not have the faith to believe what the Scriptures says, is wrong.

Note: The beasts of Revelation are actually real creatures that you have not seen yet. Just because you have not seen them does not mean that they do not exist.
There is a real, literal, fire-breathing dragon that will be released from his prison in a few short years, in order to wage war against and annihiliate the set-apart ones. This may seem absurd to you, and impossible--which is why you and many others will be taken by surprise when this happens.

So you believe that there is no literal seven-headed creature described in Revelation 13, correct? Then are the following creatures described in Revelation 9 fictional or symbolic also? Please read this passage and tell me if these creatures released from the pit of the deep are fictional or not:

Rev 9:1 And the fifth messenger sounded, and I saw a star from the heaven which had fallen to the earth. And the key to the pit of the deep was given to it.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the pit of the deep, and smoke went up out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. And the sun was darkened, also the air, because of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth, and authority was given to them as the scorpions of the earth possess authority.
Rev 9:4 And it was said to them that they shall not harm the grass of the earth, or any green matter, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of Elohim upon their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And it was given to them that they should not kill them, but to torture them for five months. And their torture was like the torture of a scorpion when it stings a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days men shall seek death and shall not find it. And they shall long to die, but death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the locusts looked like horses prepared for battle, and on their heads were crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.
Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running into battle.
Rev 9:10 And they have tails like scorpions, and stings. And in their tails is their authority to harm men five months.
Rev 9:11 And they have over them a sovereign, the messenger of the pit of the deep, whose name in Heḇrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apolluon.


If I follow your logic that you use when approaching the fictional characters or symbolism of Revelation 13, then the characters of Revelation 9 must also not exist:

1.) there is no pit of the deep in the earth, and no key to unlock it, and no messenger to unlock the pit

2.) the smoke from this pit that does not exist will not REALLY darken the sun

3.)the "locust" creatures don't REALLY come up out of the pit of the deep

4.) the locust creatures don't REALLY have the faces of men, hair of women, teeth of lions, bodies like horses and tails like scorpions. They are just fictional or symbolic.

5.) these locust creatures are not REALLY commanded by Elohim not to hurt the people that have the seal of Elohim on their foreheads.

6.) this seal of Elohim does not REALLY exist it is symbolic

7.) the locust creatures don't REALLY torture for five months the rest of mankind who do not have the seal of Elohim on their foreheads.


Thus it is all symbolic, and we are free to spiritualize it and make it say whatever we deem right. Do you see where this leads?


Favor and peace to you,

N

Shalom all,

Why would I want to read "Future History" to understand prophetic truth? Didn't Daniel say "interpretations belong to Elohim?" Do I need to agree to the contents of "Future History" to post on this forum so that I will not be censured?

I prefer to read, study and meditate on the Scriptures themselves, while utterly depending on Yahuweh to teach me the truth. I hope no one objects to this, for I think that it is a safe and reliable method for learning the truth about any given subject.

Nevertheless, out of curiosity I went to the website. I stopped reading after I read the christian "Rapture" teaching, with the "church" being raptured. Not true.

"God" was used interchangeably with Yahuweh also on the site, which is offensive to Him if you know better, for it is the pagan name of a heathen deity.

Based on the beliefs of some that I have read, there seems to be Christians on this forum? Any Natsarim/Yisraelites/Yahudim here?

Peace to all,

Chandler

Nag, by your seriously flawed logic, Yahweh doesn't use symbols or metaphors. You see "truth" as a literal reading of whatever's been said---and nothing more. (Actually, that's not quite right: your extrapolations on Revelation 13 are as ludicrous as they are unwarranted.) But let's take your philosophy to its logical conclusion. In Matthew 13, for example, you're saying Yahshua had no spiritual lessons to teach, but rather spoke only of (1) soil fertility, (2) weed eradication techniques, (3) avian infestations in herb crops, (4) how to make your bread rise, (5) treasure hunting, (6) buying and selling precious gems, (7) commercial fishing, and (8) how to be a successful packrat.

Let's get real here. In the same chapter, Yahshua explained that his use of Symbols and Metaphors was to introduce His followers to the truth while concealing those same truths from people who weren't prepared to accept it. He says, "It has been given to you [disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.’" (Matthew 13:11-15)

He was talking about you, I'm afraid. But it doesn't have to be that way. Please, my friend, open your eyes to the reality of Yahweh's symbols.

kp

I agree with everything you said bitnet. Amein.

Favor and peace to you,

N

Edit:


Shalom,

No, kp, I was discussing prophecy. I share the same understanding that you do concerning the parables of Messiah. The parables are told as allegories, for as you said, it is not given to everyone to understand them. Just to those whom Yahuweh chooses. To everyone else the parables are unintelligible.

Prophecy should be taken literally, unless it is explained in the context (such as Daniel 8), or expounded upon in some other place in Scripture. Revelation 11 and 13 are not explained, for the people, creatures and events in those chapters are literal. If most of Revelation is symbolic, as you say, then who is going to tell me what it represents? You? Me? The Pope (lol)?
Then I would be following the teachings of men, and not Elohim. Unless you think I should follow you? I am not being hateful, I am serious.

Seriously brothers and sisters, can we not discuss the teachings of Yahuweh with an open mind? My mind is open, as is my heart to you all in Messiah. But when I come across teachings (such as the "Rapture of the Church") that I know to be false, why should I read further? A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I shun these falsehoods like the plague, for I believed in such years ago. They destroy men's lives by giving them false hope. The Day of Yahuweh is near, and we may all very well be in it!

Let us all read the Scriptures, study, meditate, and most of all: cry out to Yahuweh for the truth daily!

I end this note with: Peace and favor to you all, in the love of YahuwehShua Messiah

Nagantmosin

I hope you all can remain peacable and loving to me. Shalom brothers.



Shalom Rob,

You explained to me something that I did not know. I will read the rest of FH in the next week or so, though the whole Christian "Rapture of the church" bit really bothers me. However, I have a lot of patience and love in Messiah, as I see you do. Shalom to you. I look forward to our discussions.

N



Hmmmm. If false teachings are on the website that I posted, then prove them to be false. A fair challenge, unless someone that disagrees with you is automatically censured?

If some of you brothers were kings/sovereigns, and I was a subject in your nation, and I claimed to be a prophet and told you that a huge, undefeatable, 7-headed dragon that breathes fire was coming to the earth to dominate, destroy and rule over it.....what would happen to me? Publicly censured? A restraining order placed on me? Prison? Worse?

Or would you do what the Scripture says, and wait to see whether the prophecy happens or not?

Brothers, I encountered so many like some of you that were Christians, that did not have the love of Messiah in them. They "put up a front" that they were loving followers of the Saviour, but as soon as you disagreed and challenged something that they adamantly believed in, they seemed to turn into other creatures---and not nice creatures. You cannot imagine what I have seen from such people.

On a more positive note, I know that this does not concern all on this forum. I have met one or two that appear to have the love of Messiah in them.

If you do have the love of Messiah dwelling in you (this applies to all), then why not end your posts with something like Shaul wrote, then my heart would melt in love for you too in Messiah, even if we disagreed on small matters. It is not difficult to be kind and loving to each other, IF kindness and love is in our hearts. If it is not, then it cannot be hid.

How about:

Favor be with you

Peace be with you

The love of Messiah be with you,

Peace and favor be with you,

Yours in Messiah,

etc.

The favor and peace of Messiah YahuwehShua be with you all,

Nagantmosin

Hello All,

It is clear that Nag has an opinion, and so do we. On some points we differ but that's not a real problem. I suppose how we discuss the issues is also important. Again, a key point for Nag to take note is that we are basically discussing YY and TOM here. PoD is discussed elsewhere. So it would behoove Nag to read those books to have a better grasp on what to discuss and debate here. His response thus far is positive in that he will read the information.

For us who have been here a while, I think we are mature enough to see passion and understand that there are some of the flock out there with ideas that may seem so radically different to ours. I think that we are capable of extending a little patience to peolpe like Nag. That said, we cannot tolerate teachings that are clearly in contrast with Scripture, and we do not have the time to go to each web site to refute all the false teachings out there. It is beyond measure! That is why we await the arrival of our Chief Rabbi who, with immeasurable power, can cut off all that is untrue.

What is truly important for us all is to understand the basic tenets of our Calling and find each other and extend the love that Yahushua beckons us to give to each other. I can safely say that there will be some of the Ekklesia who do not really know as much as there is in one chapter of TOM but who will be joining us because they have answered properly with their hearts, confessed Yahushua with their mouths, are willing to keep His commandments, and desire for His return to save all. Shalom!

Yo Steve,

If it makes you happy, I was told of a photograph taken in east Malaysia by a group of fishermen -- about eight -- who posed with a strange creature they caught, Apparently it was more than 20 feet long and looked just like the mythical Eastern dragon! Thing is... it had only one head, was found in the sea and could not fly. So my friend reckons perhaps there may be more anomalies out there and who knows... the big 7-headed flyin', fire-breathin' dragon may still come out of the East! If I do get that photo I will surely post it here, so 'ang on ta ya Jed Clampett...