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Offline Heretic Steve  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2007 1:46:42 PM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Cursing/speaking ill of Yah's Spirit is unforgivable? It would appear so or is there more to it than that? The fella Moses had executed for cursing Yah's Spirit seemed to have a violent streak as well.
If a person had committed this unforgivable sin, would it matter to them? Would they be interested in furthering Yah's word? Or in anything pertaining to Yah? If in a state of unforgiveness with never the possibility of a reversal, (i.e., being forgiven), what would be the usefulness of a person such as this in their continued existance? Would they be immediately executed by Yah?
What about a blasphemous thought/mind flash? Would that qualify as unforgivable even though one does not want these thoughts to occur?

While on the topic of unforgivable sin, teaching deception in the name of Yah also appears to be on the list. So that makes at least two unforgivable sins.
Although teaching deception in the name of Yah appears to be unforgivable, where does one draw the line? Is teaching people that "Jesus Christ" is the name of the Messiah unforgivable? Is teaching that worshipping on the "Lord's Day" at the "House of the Lord", that praying to and praising the "Lord" is proper "worship" unforgivable as well? After all, this is deception taught in the Name of Yahweh.
The commandment not to teach deception in the name of Yah says nothing as to whether or not such teaching/deception is deliberate or done out of ignorance. It simply says that those who do so will not be forgiven.
Although I'm being redundant, if in a state of unforgivable sinfulness, would that be an issue to one in such a state? Would they care? Or would they care not a wit?


Yes, I know. More tough questions, (at least for me). However, these are questions I'm asked or have pondered myself and I'm uncertain how to address them.
Any advice/thoughts?
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline Icy  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2007 3:44:53 AM(UTC)
Icy
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I seem to have the hardest time answering Heretic Steve questions. I have tried to reply here twice now and have had IE freeze the first time, and the computer just shut off on the second time. Everytime I try to answer your questions I have some sort of issue. Well, let's try this again. . .

I can read and understand your question, but for some reason, I feel like I can't quite grasp what you are asking. What is the scipture for Moshe and this fella he has executed? What scripture discusses unforgivable sin?

I would say that where the line falls doesn't really matter too much to each of us on an individual level. But, then, what if you were on that line at some point? Then I can see why you might be interested in knowing. I can see why we might all want to know, just out of curiosity, but unless you have been on the line, it doesn't really matter to you. What if the line is closer than that? If you know the truth and yet do not share it with others and just let them continue to believe a lie, is that not decieving? What if the line is there?

Say there is someone who we know is on the wrong side of the line, he preaches fervently against Yahuweh to everyone, and turns many away from life. What if this guy, who we can be pretty certain is going to spend eternity in the Abyss, finds the truth? What if after finding the truth he turns around and fervently delivers the truth to all he meets. He now knows and loves Yahuweh. Is he wasting his time? Granted, to those that learn the truth from him, he did not waste his time, but is he still stuck in the Abyss? What if he knows he is and still wants to save others? Would that save him or is he still unforgiven? Does the line move here from being action based to instead being based on ignorance vs. knowledge? If he was ignorant of Yahuweh in the first part of his life when he was against Yahuweh, but then came into knowledge does that make a difference?

I guess I couldn't see someone with knowledge in the begining suddenly having a change of heart. There has to be something to prompt that, and knowledge would usually be it. So, if they already had the knowledge the likely hood of doing a 180 is slim. But, what if this person did know the truth in the first part of his life and something happened to cause him to change. He has known the truth the whole time. Is it any different than if he were ignorant in the begining?

Is this example impossible? Does Yahuweh harden this person's heart so that he never will find the truth? If that is the case, then if you fell into the group who thought they were on the line but now know the truth and share it then obviously you were never on the other side of the line like the guy in the example. Because, if once on that other side you can never reach the point we here are at, then just by the virtue of you being at this point means you were never on the wrong side of the line.

I would like to see scripture on the unforgiveable sin, as well as some on Yahuweh's mercy. It is hard for me to imagine Yahuweh condemning this person who found the error to his ways and came to Yahuweh. This is an extreme example. But, since we know that salvation is not based on works, it wouldn't matter how many people the person brought the truth to. So, if that is true, than I would assume it does not matter how many he turned away from the truth. So, if we can solve this extreme example, then I would imagine that it would also solve the more simple examples.
Offline shohn  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2007 5:41:02 AM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

What are the specific passages we're talking about here?
--
Shohn of Texas
Offline Sator  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:46:55 PM(UTC)
Sator
Joined: 6/29/2007(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: orange county, CA

A few thoughts


The unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Mark3:22-30 Mathew 12:31-32 Hebrews 10:26-29

The true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture.

I would personally define blasphemy here as permanently rejecting the Holy Spirits message (John 3:18; 3:36). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Yahushua with such finality that no future repentance is possible. (ever wonder about spontaneous combustion?) As in Noah's day the people had 120 years to accept the message of repentance but all save Noah and company rejected the Spirits message.

A person troubled by a guilty conscience fears that they have sinned too much for Yahweh to forgive and save them. That person has not made a choice one way or the other and therefore forgiveness is still available. The Holy Spirit convicts men of their sin and draws them to the Savior (John 16:8-11; 3:5-6) If the person is still being convicted then the Spirit has not abandoned him/her and there is still knocking at the door.

Yahweh's redemptive purpose and power are not limited by man's sinfulness encouraging those who fear they have sinned too much to be saved (this about PAUL! 1 Timothy 1:15-16).

What happens to a person that has committed this unforgivable sin or how would you know if you committed it?
He or she is given over to a reprobate mind.

Romans 1:22-24

Romans 1:26-32. the key verse being 28

Ephesians 4:19

Exodus 8:32,9:12

Genesis 6:5


Yahushua's assurance:
John 6:37: Him that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out.

Although your sins be like scarlet, they shall be white as snow.'though they be like crimson, they shall be as wool' [Isaiah 1:18].


Sator
Offline Icy  
#5 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:35:33 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the insight Sator.
Offline Heretic Steve  
#6 Posted : Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:43:26 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

I very much appreciate the replies. Hey Icy, here's that passage about the violent blasphemer. Leviticus, 24th chap.
10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline Icy  
#7 Posted : Saturday, October 13, 2007 4:20:44 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the verse Steve.

I wanted to know what blaspheme was, so I first looked at the ISR version, which says that he, "blasphemed the Name, and cursed." So then I checked the KJV with Strong's version and it says that he, "blasphemed5344 (853) the name8034 of the LORD, and cursed.7043" (like how they added that extra the LORD, that wasn't really there?).

Looking at the strongs numbers, the word for blaspheme is naqab, which means to puncture. Puncturing is putting holes in something (so is that like "making it holy"?). And the word for cursed is qalal which means to make light of or view as insignificant. So, basically what he did was he made Yahuweh's name out to be worthless. Exactly what most every "christian" does nowadays.
Offline Joseph  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, October 17, 2007 6:08:26 PM(UTC)
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Location: lakewood. CO

this is a helpful thread for me personally. I was raised Catholic - don't think I ever opened a Bible; don't think I would have been able to tell you who authored Luke. Became an atheist at 17, softening to agnostic, then theist, and finally this year I came to the Truth for what I believe to be the first time. Nonetheless, I was an arrogant SOB in my atheist and agnostic days, frequently cursing Yah (of course I didn't know His proper name at the time) as arrogant atheists are wont to do - often in vitriolic drunkenness. In my studies, I came across the sin against the Spirit and spent several sleepless nights wondering if I had committed it in my earlier days. My best guess is that I did not and I have reached this conclusion because My creator and redeemer is now my life. I can feel the Spirit in me. I can feel Her very real guidance. I know a Joy today that I never thought I was capable of knowing. I don't think that any of this would be possible if, in spite of all the wretched, dispicable, prolific sinning my resume documents, I had committed that one sin. A wise man told me last week that God meets us where we are and I see much truth in that. His nature is perfect love. His nature is amazing depths of forgiveness. If today I would repeat some of the more horrifying arrogant trespasses of my past, knowing what I know now; I think that might well qualify as the sin.
Offline kp  
#9 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:59:57 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Icy, you are too funny: naqab means puncture, so it means to make holy? You crack me up.

On a more serious note, I ran across this whole "unforgiven" thing again while working on the first chapter (not yet finished) of the second volume of The Owner's Manual. This may be of interest...

Quote:
(636) Do not arrogantly defy God or despise His Word. “But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on Yahweh, and he shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of Yahweh, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.” (Numbers 15:30-31) There is sin, and then there is sin. The whole passage just previous to this dealt with what to do (in a ritual-symbolic sense) when an individual or the whole congregation came to the realization that they had sinned. Such sins (literally, missing the target) are characterized as being “unintentional.” They’re still sins, of course. They must be atoned for, dealt with, cleansed; but at least there is a remedy. For the fault spoken of in this passage, however, there is no remedy; it therefore behooves us to determine precisely what it is Yahweh is describing.

The keyword is “presumptuously” (translated “defiantly” in the NIV and NASB, and “brazenly” in the NLT). The Hebrew is two words: ruwm, a verb meaning “to rise up, exalt, be lofty, or lift up,” and yad, meaning “hand”, thus figuratively, “strength or power.” A direct translation would therefore be “high-handedly.” But the connotation is even stronger. The phrase speaks of arrogance, pride, a lifting up of one’s own position of strength in the face of (and in defiance of) Yahweh’s Law. It is saying, “I don’t care what God says; I recognize no authority but my own. I will do as I please, without regard to the Word of Yahweh. And I will never show remorse or entertain a sense of guilt for my actions.” Ruwm yad reeks of insolence and rebellion.

A different word is rendered “presumptuously” in this parallel passage, but the message is identical: “Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before Yahweh your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.” (Deuteronomy 17:12-13) Here “presumptuously” is the Hebrew word is zadown, a noun (the parallel verb ziyd is also used) meaning pride, insolence, presumptuousness, or arrogance. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament notes, “The basic idea is pride, a sense of self-importance, which often is exaggerated to include defiance and even rebelliousness…having pride in view as opposed to God, which is a major sin. Persons so characterized are parallelled with those who ‘work wickedness’ and ‘tempt God,’ and with ‘all who do wickedly.’ As a result, they will be burned like stubble in the day of God’s impending punishment. Frequently, such people are depicted as opposing those who try to do the will of God.”

Ordinary “sin” is missing the mark in the archery tournament of life—something even the best of us do. But at least we’re aiming at the target. The one who “acts presumptuously” is not aiming at the target at all, but is, rather, lobbing arrows at the tournament’s Judge. As we have seen before, those in Israel responsible for leading their fellow men to their spiritual deaths were to be executed. By tolerating such defiance of Yahweh, Israel was courting a deadly evil indeed.

kp
Offline Icy  
#10 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:23:15 AM(UTC)
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KP, when I wrote that, I was thinking that I could easily see that showing up in one of your books. I even wondered if I hadn't actually read it at some point.
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