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Offline Jason  
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:59:25 AM(UTC)
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NaShaMHa IS NOT UNIQUE TO MAN

And all flesh perished that moved upon the earth, both fowl, and cattle, and beast, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and every man; all in whose nostrils was the (NaShaMHa ROCh HYYM) breath of the spirit of life, whatsoever was in the dry land, died. And He blotted out every living substance which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping thing, and fowl of the heaven; and they were blotted out from the earth; and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days. BRAShYT 7:21-24

Offline MariaAnastasia  
#2 Posted : Friday, June 14, 2013 3:54:13 PM(UTC)
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Cool i think this works
Offline Jason  
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 3, 2015 9:28:01 PM(UTC)
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Finally, a conclusion that doesnt have to agree with Yada. LOL, I charish this post. Should have wrote this 2 years ago lol.

nothing personal Yada
Offline InHisName  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, December 9, 2015 3:42:28 PM(UTC)
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I can't to argue this point, because I haven't seen enough clear evidence either way, but...

I don't see where animals are given a Nashama. It is certain that it was given to Adam. And it is inferred that it is passed to other humans, but it is not stated how. That leaves open the possibility that it could be passed to animals in some manner.

Since Yada has been open to the possibility of animals in Heaven, does he think they get there without a Nashama?? Not sure how that would work (which is not unusual).

Now here is my push back to your post. Your conculsion is dependent on the punctuation of the translation you sited. But there is no clear punctuation in the original text (at least that is my understanding of scriptural Hebrew). Your verses could easily be restructured to a new meaning:

Originally Posted by: Jason Go to Quoted Post
NaShaMHa IS NOT UNIQUE TO MAN

And all flesh perished that moved upon the earth, both fowl, and cattle, and beast, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and every man; all in whose nostrils was the (NaShaMHa ROCh HYYM) breath of the spirit of life, whatsoever was in the dry land, died. And He blotted out every living substance which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping thing, and fowl of the heaven; and they were blotted out from the earth; and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days. BRAShYT 7:21-24



And all flesh perished that moved upon the earth, both fowl and cattle and beast and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth; and every man in whose nostrils was the (NaShaMHa ROCh HYYM) breath of the spirit of life,

So while I can't say your conclusion is wrong, I don't think you can hang your hat on this verse alone. If it is not stated clearly in the text (and repeatedly), I have to remain a skeptic and add it to the ever growing list of things that will be answered once we get to the other side.
Offline James  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:24:09 AM(UTC)
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Lending to InHisName's theory is that verse 22 goes on to say from all that were on the dry land. This portion could not apply to the whole of the list which included birds, but if we view 22 as just modifying the last item on the list, man, then it would fit.

And perished all of the living creatures that moved in the region, the birds, and the domesticated animals, and the wild animals, and all of the swarmers swarming in the region. And all of the men, all that had the breath of life in his nostrils from all which were in the dry land, died.

Most if not all Hebrew sentences begin with a "wa" or "and" so And before men can be either a continuation of the list, or the start of a new sentence. Notice that what has been labeled verse 22 does not begin with the wa. Also based on the use of Perished at the start and died at the end I would conclude that each is a verb portion of a sentence unto itself with the dividing point being Man. Think of it like this would this sentence make sense, “And perished the cats, the dogs, the fish, and the flies died.”

Looking at it in those terms it becomes interesting to consider why the difference between perished, gawa, and died, muwth, between the animals and man.

Here is Yada’s translation of it, which seems to be in this same line of thinking:

“All (kol) related human and animal flesh (basar – living creatures, especially related people descended from a specific bloodline, messengers and preachers) which moved about (ramas) upon (‘al) the ground (‘erets), perished, gasping for breath (gawa’ – expired and died, becoming an empty, hollow corpse, the door being shut on them), including (ba) birds (‘op – winged creatures), domestic animals(bahemah), and wild animals (chayah), and all kinds of (kol) small insects living in colonies(saras) scurrying about in swarms (seres) on (‘al) the ground (‘erets – land or earth as in soil), and every (kol) man (‘adam), everyone (kol – all) who had by way of relationship (‘asher) within their breath and nature (‘aph – their attitude and disposition) a living (chayym) nesamah/conscience(nesamah – seat of judgment, discernment, and discrimination, faculty for moral choice); all (kol)with (‘asher) the spirit (ruwach) of (min) desolation (charabah – from charab, that which dries up, lays waste, and destroys, lifelessness) died a natural death (muwth – expired and were dispatched).” (Bare’syth / In the Beginning / Genesis 7: 22)


This is covered in the Noah chapter of volume 1 of YY, which we are currently going through on the Shabbat show so if you are interested keep listening we will be here eventually and would love to have callers call in about this.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Jason  
#6 Posted : Saturday, February 13, 2016 4:42:23 PM(UTC)
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Sorry I did not see these replies earlier when BTR went through it James. I do think I did catch them all later but I dont remember this topic coming up. It could be that I missed it. If you know the particular show which this topic was addressed I would like to hear it.

As far as the translation I used and its punctuation, I am using an interlinear on my phone. Please excuse the crudeness of my translation but I am not at this point proficient enough to translate directly from the hebrew myself. This is something I am currently working to change.

Here are a few points to consider.

1. Yes Birds fly but they are clearly still a land creatures. They cant nest without dry land and so can not procreate.
2. Yah instructed Noah to bring birds with him into the ark. Why would that be necessary if they are not land creatures?
3. Right after listing the swarming thing it says AND ALL THE MAN (OKL HADM) then goes on to say, without continuing to add to the list of creatures with more ANDs, to say (KL ASR NSMT ROCH)

I rough translation of mine is ALL ASSOCIATED with the NSMT ROCH

The way this reads to me is that this description of ALL (KL) ASSOCIATED WITH (ASR) the NASHAMA include the preceeding list of flesh that moved upon the earth.

personally I dont think these arguments or your are very strong. I dont see why Nashama has to be unique to man anyway other than to agree with Yada's apprent assumption. If anything makes man unique it is that he/she was made in Yah's image (BTsLMNO)

J


Offline James  
#7 Posted : Monday, February 15, 2016 9:16:41 AM(UTC)
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Jason wrote:

Sorry I did not see these replies earlier when BTR went through it James. I do think I did catch them all later but I dont remember this topic coming up. It could be that I missed it. If you know the particular show which this topic was addressed I would like to hear it.


I don't think we ever actually amde it to this, Yada kind of switched topics when he started his study of Samuel and we started talking about that.

Jason wrote:
As far as the translation I used and its punctuation, I am using an interlinear on my phone. Please excuse the crudeness of my translation but I am not at this point proficient enough to translate directly from the hebrew myself. This is something I am currently working to change.


I applaud anyone's attempt to translate for themseleves, however crude. And I hope I did not come across as discouraging, that was not my intent. I only intended to offer something to think about and an alternative.

Jason wrote:
Here are a few points to consider.

1. Yes Birds fly but they are clearly still a land creatures. They cant nest without dry land and so can not procreate.
2. Yah instructed Noah to bring birds with him into the ark. Why would that be necessary if they are not land creatures?
3. Right after listing the swarming thing it says AND ALL THE MAN (OKL HADM) then goes on to say, without continuing to add to the list of creatures with more ANDs, to say (KL ASR NSMT ROCH)

I rough translation of mine is ALL ASSOCIATED with the NSMT ROCH

The way this reads to me is that this description of ALL (KL) ASSOCIATED WITH (ASR) the NASHAMA include the preceeding list of flesh that moved upon the earth.

personally I dont think these arguments or your are very strong. I dont see why Nashama has to be unique to man anyway other than to agree with Yada's apprent assumption. If anything makes man unique it is that he/she was made in Yah's image (BTsLMNO)

J


I'm not one to say I am right and you are wrong, unless the evidence is overwhelming, and in this case it most certainly is not. The grammer and syntax of Hebrew allow for both possible translation and understandings. I would say that to my mind, my understanding is more in line with the whole of Yah's towrah. I am leary to build an understanding based on a single passage, and I have seen nothing else in all of Yah's towrah to suggest that a nesamah exists in any creature other then man. Yahowah repeates himself time and time again, so if a single passage suggests something that is nowhere elese suggested I am apt to look at other possibilites and see what fits. If there were multiple passages that suggest that the neshamah is not unique to man then it would be different, but since there is only one, and there is an equally valid translational understanding of that passage I am inclinded toward that view.

What does it mean to be made in Yah's image? Surely it is not a physical appearence since Yah is a spiritual being. So what then makes us be in Yah's image. That is why as I see it the only thing unique about man is our neshamah and that is what makes us in Yah's image.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Jason  
#8 Posted : Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:27:25 PM(UTC)
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No worries James. I am not discouraged at all, and thanks for contibuting to this topic. I have come to the conclusion that I am long overdue to become proficient with the hebrew. It is becoming increasingly clear that for me to move forward in my study I really need to know and understand and be able to confidently read the hebrew directly from the text. Yada's radio and literary commentary and his willingness to take others along with him in his study has greatly excellerate my understanding and also helped me greatly to avoid religous pitfalls and corruptions. However, I don't think I will be satisfied until I can read the text for myself. To me, it will be like finally communicating with Yah directly, one to one.

ok so I did a little word study and came accross some intersting points made about the NShMH.

Interstingly, I did not find any contextual examples that the NShMH is man's concience. It is consistantly associated with what makes a creature alive, not which gives him/her the ability to make moral choices. Here are some examples.

Breath of Life (NShMT ChYYM) BREShYT 2:7
Breath of the Spirit of Life (NShMT ROCh ChYYM) BREShYT 7:22
All that breathe are not to remain living (LE TChYH KL NShMH) BDRYM 20:16
He (YaHOShA) destroyed utterly and nothing survived that breathed according to the instructions of YaHOaH (YaHOShA 10:40)

In Joshua it is clear the instruction from Yah is to leave none alive, then goes on to narrate that all with NShMH died. I dont find any examples in any of its uses in the TPP in which it is described or suggests that it is that which provides man with the ability to make moral choices. Look at all the verses it is included in, how does a concence fit in these?


There are 23 uses of it that I can find in the TPP. I used an interlinear with a built in lexicon for my findings. I put some points down on some of them. also, in the verses mentioned above I put my own translation in italics. Bolded for emphasis.

BREShYT
2.7- Yah breathed it into man when creating him. It seems that this act is what caused man to actually become a living being.
7.22- We already spoke about this, it still seems to me that this text suggests that creatures also have NShMH. Creatures that breath, man included. If you have the ability to draw breath, you have in your procession that which causes a being that is formed to something that is actually animated or alive.
DBRYM
20.16
JOSH
10.40
11.11
2SAM
22.16
1KINGS
15.29
17.17 - this one is very interesting, and I havnt unpacked it completely yet but it talks about the son's death being equated with there being no breath(NShMH) in him. BTW I don’t think it was the absence of his concience that indicated he was dead, lol. read on through to verse 22 and find that Yah revived him and this came about by his SOUL!!(NFSh) returning to him. very interesting
YShaYHO
2.22
30.33
42.5
57.16
PSALMS
18.16
150.6
YOB
4.9
26.4
27.3
32.8
33.4
34.14
37.10
PROVERBS
20.27 - this is one of my favourites, it describes the NShMH as being that which reaveals the innerself of man to Yah. THat it is the means by which your whole being is searched out and known to Yah. Also facinating is that the word used for lamp is descibed in my lexicon as a clay vessel filled with oil with usually only one wick.
DANIEL
10.17

*Yada mentioned himself that Science really has no idea, and has not yet begun to understand the phenomenon know as life. Perhaps this is what the essence of NShMT is, rather than being one aspect or function of one particular creature, NShMT is the very essential ingredient to living creatures that allows them to draw breath. To transmit and receive energy and information, to be alive. When you think about it, that is one thing that all life does, it takes in energy in its various forms, and it exerts energy in another form, much like breathing. It receives information, and it expresses information.

I’m not going to be dogmatic here, I have a lot to improve on when it comes to ShMR DBR. That being said, where is it made so definitive that NShMT is what gives man the ability to make moral decisions or have moral judgement? All the contextual examples, save perhaps proverbs giving a metaphorical description of it, point in a different direction. A persons ability to make moral decisions is not what keeps their physical bodies alive and breathing. NShMT or NShMH are never used to describe a concense in any of the various contexts it is found in.

Interested to hear your take on this.

J
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