 Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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Kp's and ruchaman's debate about the post trib rapture that kinda went off topic and evolved to a discussion on Israel captivated me. Though I didn't see it resolved the way I would have liked. I would love to invite any views that anyone has about the role of Israel in the post trib Millenial world, and more specifically the Gentiles and the native born Israelites in their respective roles at that time. This all gets a little confusing to me so I am not going to really take a strong position on this, I really want to read peoples views on this topic.
I will say one thing however. There are enough scriptural referances to support Gentile inclusion in Israel. We need look no further than the Pesach mandates, the mixed multitude, Caleb the Kennazite, Ruth the Moabitess, Urriah the Hittite, and Obadyah, the Edomite. We know that Israel is going to grow a sizable amount in the coming victories, and that it will extend to it's true boundaries. I am not saying tha it will grow large enough to take on the hundreds of millions or a billion people that may be left after the return of Messiah, but I was just making some observations that people can extrapolate on.
I have always taken Shaul's letter to the Ephesians to suggest that indeed the Gentiles coming into a relationship with Messiah were to consider themselves alighned with Israel. Now, could it be that that was a spiritual alignment or citizenship, I think most definitely it could have been. Now, will that alignment matter if indeed there is a pre trib rapture and the caught up ones come back as immortal mentors as Kp put it? I can't say for sure.
I don't want to start making circles, so I am just going to shutup and wait for some reading material.
Shalom |
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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 Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN
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Hey Shalom,
Thanks for the post and you raise some most interesting qwestions, all of which deserve solid answers. As we read Scripture, It is clear that *whosoever will's* has been welcomed by the G-d of Israel, as you so clearly stated. Once they *take hold of His covenant* (Is 56) they are no longer considered anything but part of the commonwealth of Israel, Eph 2. This is the wonder of the gospel!
Once they align themselves with Israel, they are subject to the same laws. G-d, at Mt Sinai, did not say to Moses, "OK, get the jews over here, i have one set of instructions for them, and put the gentiles over there for a different set." No, the Isrealite and the stranger who had jioined themselves to them all received the same Torah.
But the fact that two groups of people would *cling to the covenant* really begins to be seen in the life of Joseph. He marries an Egyptian women and has two sons in Egypt, Manasseh and Ephraim. Just before he died, Jacob *adopted* these two boys. He said:
Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
What is fascinating about this verse is the word for GROW: it is the Hebrew word DAGAH, with the root word DAG or fish! So Jacob is saying: let their decendents multiply LIKE FISH in the midst of the earth!
These two sons became FULL tribal families in Israel. In fact the blessing said over Jewish boys each Shabbat is: "May you be as Ephraim and Manasseh...". Yet, if you go to the Scripture and see what happened to their descendents, well it is almost stunning! They rebelled against the House of David, they refused to acknowledge the Temple at Jerusalem as the religious heart of the nation. They threw out the Levitical priesthood and established a priesthood of their own. They set up idols in Dan and Bethel and changed the dates of the Feasts! I hope you can see some parallels here!
The Almighty sent prophets to them, to tell them to repent: Elijah, Elisha, Hosea, Amos, but they would not listen. As a result, they were exiled from the Land of Israel about 150yrs prior to the Jews being exiled to Babylon. The Jews returned from Babylon after 70 yrs: the descendents of Ephraim and Manasseh et al, STILL have not returned. In fact, they are referred to today as the *ten Lost Tribes of Israel*.
However, that is not the end of the story. Almost every single prophet speaks of the day they would return to the covenant. In fact, Jews today will say that Yeshua is NOT the Messiah because He didnt bring back the exiles. However, I would counter that that is JUST what He has done, for 2000yrs! The purpose of the gospel is to find those exiles and return them to the covenant!
And that includes all the *whosoever will's* !
All the details of this are in the Word, outlined in detail.
Shalom shalom,
Ruchamah
PS Isaiah said that you wuold say, "Hey there isnt room for all of us!"
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If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance. |
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 Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127
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Great Topic Shalom82. I thought I would interject with an email exchange I had with Yada last year. This confirmation of what I found in Yada Yahweh may help everyone out on this topic. My initial email is on the bottom, Yada's response is on the top. This is one of my favorite topics.
From: "Yada Yahweh" <email@yadayahweh.com>
Date: September 22, 2006 6:17:02 AM PDT
To: "'Noah'" <comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Taruwah Chapter
Yes Noah is the answer. It is a profound and empowering truth. It is the
real meaning behind Yisra'el and Yahuwdy as well as Taruwah--shout for joy
and proclaim the Good News.
By sharing this confirmation with me, you have made my Taruwah complete.
Thank you.
Yada
-----Original Message-----
From: Noah [mailto:comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:40 AM
To: Yada Yahweh
Subject: Re: Taruwah Chapter
Thanks Yada. I look forward to you getting the rest of Book 1:
Foundation complete. I began reading Book 4 tonight. You affirmed
on page 16 what Yahuah told me the minute I chose to truly believe in
His salvation and follow His way, we become Yisrael in His eyes.
Even though we may be former gentiles, we are adopted Yisrael through
our belief in Yahushua. Could we say that He never actually switched
His witness from Yisrael, but only asked gentiles to join Yisrael by
accepting His salvation? By accepting His salvation, we would become
adopted Yahudim and continue to witness as His bride. We are
Yahushua's lost sheep and we are returning now as He calls us. Based
on what you wrote in Book 4 chapter 1 would you agree?
By the way, have a blessed Yom Taruwah. You can bet we will be
reading a lot of Yada Yahweh this Miqra.
Noah
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Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
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so far so good....any more responses? |
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
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Exactly why is this Topic in Fools and Folly? Who decided that it should go here? What is ridiculous about this question? Could I at least have an explanation by the person who put this topic here? |
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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 Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC) Posts: 57  Location: Central Florida
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Guys,
I just PM'ed Yada to check on this. I think this may have been done in error and I hope shalom wasn't offended. I know I was at first when trying to find a post I was on and the search landed in here. Then I realised the entire Anything Goes topic was renamed and it may have been a mistake.
Yada is very responsive and will let us know but he lives on the other side of the world from us so it may take a cycle to fix.
Jim
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 Joined: 6/27/2007(UTC) Posts: 254  Location: Florida
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I PM'ed as well as I thought the Fools and Folly were to be for the Muslim emails that Yada gets and other absurd emails.
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Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC) Posts: 57 Location: Central Florida
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