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Offline needhelp  
#1 Posted : Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:09:57 AM(UTC)
needhelp
Joined: 5/19/2011(UTC)
Posts: 197
Location: US

The rest of the Torah says that Yahowah cut the Covenant
with Abraham,Issac,Jacob and the other "forefathers".
Is this atranslation an error or does it mean something else?

“Yahowah (????) did not cut (lo’ karat – did not establish and make) this
(zo’th) Familial Covenant Relationship (beryth – alliance of friendship and
marriage vow based on beyth – family, household, and home) with (‘eth – as in
association or proximity to) our fathers (‘ab), rather (ky – indeed) with (‘eth –
in association and proximity to) those of (‘eleh) us (‘anahnuw) here (poh – in this
place) who are all living (kol hay – all of us who are alive) this day (yowm).”
(Dabarym / Words / Deuteronomy 5:3)
Offline cgb2  
#2 Posted : Friday, March 1, 2013 12:22:34 PM(UTC)
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Well from the context afterward, this time it's a little different and more formal BigGrin
...voice thundering from the fire, 2 tablets to a huge assembly.

IMO anyways
Offline needhelp  
#3 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2013 3:19:24 AM(UTC)
needhelp
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Location: US

It does say ""this" Covenant Relationship". But that sounds
like a different one. Aren't they supposed to be the same?
Offline Mike  
#4 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2013 4:25:01 PM(UTC)
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It looks like to me that the covenant at Mount Horeb was for Yahowah to give the Israelites the Torah and for the Israelites to listen to the Torah, learn the Torah, and guard the Torah and pass it on to their children and children's children. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob didn't have the “capitol T” Torah but they did have “lower-case t” torah (teaching).

Deu 5:1 And Mosheh called all Yisra¡¯ĕl, and said to them, Hear, O Yisra¡¯ĕl, the laws and right-rulings which I speak in your hearing today. And you shall learn them, and guard to do them.
Deu 5:2 יהוה our Elohim made a covenant with us in Horĕb.
Deu 5:3 יהוה did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Deu 5:4 יהוה spoke with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire.

Exo 34:4 And he cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Mosheh rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as יהוה had commanded him, and he took two tablets of stone in his hand.
Exo 34:5 And יהוה came down in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the Name, יהוה.
Exo 34:6 And יהוה passed before him and proclaimed, ¡°יהוה, יהוה, an Ěl compassionate and showing favor, patient, and great in kindness and truth,
Exo 34:7 watching over kindness for thousands, forgiving crookedness and transgression and sin, but by no means leaving unpunished1, visiting the crookedness of the fathers upon the children and the children¡¯s children to the third and the fourth generation.¡± Footnote: 1This is confirmed in Num. 14:18, and in Jer. 30:11.
Exo 34:8 And Mosheh hurried and bowed himself toward the earth, and did obeisance,
Exo 34:9 and said, If, now, I have found favour in Your eyes, O יהוה, I pray, let יהוה go on in our midst, even though we are a stiff-necked people. And forgive our crookedness and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance.
Exo 34:10 And He said, See, I am making a covenant. Before all your people I am going to do wonders such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation. And all the people among whom you are shall see the work of יהוה. For what I am doing with you is awesome.
Exo 34:11 Guard what I command you today. See, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Kenaʽanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hiwwite and the Yebusite.
Exo 34:12 Guard yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst.
Exo 34:13 But break down their altars, and smash their pillars, and cut down their Ashĕrim.

Exo 34:27 And יהוה said to Mosheh, Write these Words, for according to the mouth of these Words I have made a covenant with you and with Yisra¡¯ĕl.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with יהוה forty days and forty nights. He did not eat bread and he did not drink water. And He wrote on the tablets the Words of the covenant, the Ten Words.
Exo 34:29 And it came to be, when Mosheh came down from Mount Sinai, while the two tablets of the Witness were in Mosheh¡¯s hand when he came down from the mountain, that Mosheh did not know that the skin of his face shone since he had spoken with Him.
Exo 34:30 And Aharon and all the children of Yisra¡¯ĕl looked at Mosheh and saw the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.
Exo 34:31 But Mosheh called out to them, and Aharon and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him, and Mosheh spoke to them.
Exo 34:32 And afterward all the children of Yisra¡¯ĕl came near, and he commanded them all that יהוה had spoken with him on Mount Sinai.
Exo 34:33 And when Mosheh ended speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.
Exo 34:34 But whenever Mosheh went in before יהוה to speak with Him, he would remove the veil until he came out. And when he came out he spoke to the children of Yisra¡¯ĕl what he had been commanded,

Shalom
Offline needhelp  
#5 Posted : Sunday, March 3, 2013 5:29:16 AM(UTC)
needhelp
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Thankx Mike, I didn't know about the upper and lower cases.
It makes much better sense that way.

BTW which scripture are you copying from?
Thankx in advance.
Offline Mike  
#6 Posted : Sunday, March 3, 2013 3:55:17 PM(UTC)
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needhelp,

I copied the scripture from e-sword “the Scriptures 1998”.

There isn't literally upper and lower case in Hebrew. That was the way that Yada described this concept on the radio shows to help us English speakers with the concept. Torah can refer to the Pentateuch (first 5 books) I think that is what Yada referred to as the “capitol T” Torah. This is what most people think of when they hear "Torah". If you look at the definition of torah, the #1a definition in Brown-Driver-Briggs is direction, instruction, teaching, I think that is what Yada referred to as the “lower-case” torah.

H8451
תּרה / תּורה
tôrâh
BDB Definition:
1) law, direction, instruction
1a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1a1) body of prophetic teaching
1a2) instruction in Messianic age
1a3) body of priestly direction or instruction
1a4) body of legal directives
1b) law
1b1) law of the burnt offering
1b2) of special law, codes of law
1c) custom, manner
1d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law
Part of Speech: noun feminine

H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

Shalom
Offline appliey  
#7 Posted : Sunday, March 3, 2013 9:40:46 PM(UTC)
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Abraham, Issac, and Jacob didn't have the “capitol T” Torah but they did have “lower-case t” torah (teaching)
Offline needhelp  
#8 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 1:20:27 AM(UTC)
needhelp
Joined: 5/19/2011(UTC)
Posts: 197
Location: US

Thankx again,Mike

Sorry, didn't mean to be rude,
Thankx appliey, also.

Mike, Have you tried uploading
Come out of Her My People?
I think you are using Firefox also.
I've got it down to 592kb in zip
and still can't upload it. Think
Firefox has gone stupid.

Just downloaded Scriptures 98
Thankx again
Offline James  
#9 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 2:59:40 AM(UTC)
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I think the simplest explanation is that what is being conveyed is that the Towrah, teaching, guiding, instructions and directions to Him are for the living and not the dead. The Towrah does the dead no good, but is the difference between life and death for us still alive.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#10 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 3:01:47 AM(UTC)
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If you are interested this is covered in the Shabbat chapter of Yada Yah around page 35.

YY Shabbat wrote:
“Yahowah () did not cut (lo’ karat – did not establish and make) this
(zo’th) Familial Covenant Relationship (beryth – alliance of friendship and
marriage vow based on beyth – family, household, and home) with (‘eth – as in
association or proximity to) our fathers (‘ab), rather (ky – indeed) with (‘eth –
in association and proximity to) those of (‘eleh) us (‘anahnuw) here (poh – in this
place) who are all living (kol hay – all of us who are alive) this day (yowm).”
(Dabarym / Words / Deuteronomy 5:3)

God is not saying that He didn’t cut a covenant with Abraham, or reaffirm it
with Yitschaq and Ya’aqob. And He didn’t suggest that this covenant differed in
any way from the original. After all, the only reason the covenant cut with
Abraham is known to us is because of Bare’syth, the first of five books which
comprise the very Towrah Moseh was proclaiming this day. So the point here is
that the Covenant is for all of us who are alive. Furthermore, Moseh’s audience
personally experienced this revelation as the next verse affirms.

Before we move on, you should know that this passage is also counter to
Paul’s thesis in Galatians and Romans whereby the Covenant cut on Mount Sinai
was with Hagar and Ishmael—who had died 400 years earlier and were never in
this place. And according to Sha’uwl, Yahowah’s Covenant was incapable of 35
providing, establishing, or prolonging life, also in direct conflict with God’s
testimony.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline needhelp  
#11 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 4:13:10 AM(UTC)
needhelp
Joined: 5/19/2011(UTC)
Posts: 197
Location: US

I am interested. Couldn't find it again in Yada yah.
Thanks for the help. It is now bookmarked.
The Covenant being for the living and not the dead
literally is a view that had not crossed my mind. Makes
sense. I think you and Mike have answered my question.
Thankx.
Offline sengvilay  
#12 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 7:15:37 PM(UTC)
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Posts: 2
Location: anhui

I come and see, I don't know what do you say, sorry.
Offline Mike  
#13 Posted : Thursday, March 7, 2013 1:49:35 PM(UTC)
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needhelp,

I don’t have “Come out of her my People” in pdf form. I read the paper-back book a few years ago and loaned it to someone that I worked with so now I don’t have the paper-back either. If you could upload it to the forum that would be great. Yes, I use Firefox, usually.

Shalom
Offline cgb2  
#14 Posted : Thursday, March 7, 2013 5:02:42 PM(UTC)
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Offline Mike  
#15 Posted : Friday, March 8, 2013 4:44:07 AM(UTC)
Mike
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cgb2,

Thanks for sharing the link for “Come out of Her my People”.

“Fossilized Customs” Sixth Edition is also on Scribd.

http://www.scribd.com/do...05823/Fossilized-Customs

Shalom
Offline LexBrand  
#16 Posted : Friday, March 8, 2013 11:11:10 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 2/13/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
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Location: Bay Area CA



Ha! I almost ordered this yesterday from Amazon. Thanks for saving me some $$!

Edited by moderator Friday, March 8, 2013 12:50:17 PM(UTC)  | Reason: fixes quotes

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