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Offline Camille  
#1 Posted : Saturday, February 2, 2013 10:19:26 AM(UTC)
Camille
Joined: 11/6/2012(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Boston, MA

Shalom all,

I am having trouble understanding why people here believe in a rapture. Apart from Pauline doctrine, I don't see it anywhere in scripture that I can find.

"One taken, one left behind" is clearly not about a rapture, but about persecuted saints being falsely accused and taken into military tribunals to be imprisoned or put to death. (Revelation 6:9-11, 13:10) In fact, those with the Truth who stand in the way of the Beast's deceptions are already being stalked and defamed with numerous false accusations so that they may be set up for future imprisonment (or labeled "mentally ill" and sent to the psychiatric gulag). Many have already been killed or put away in prisons on false charges.

Since the Darby/Scofield pre-trib rapture is so blatantly fraudulent (as evidenced by the fact that it is being taught in 95% of the churches, if nothing else), I think it is safe to assume that no one on this forum ascribes to that, and to assume that people here are speaking of a post-trib rapture.

But if Yahoshua comes at the End, why would we need to go anywhere? Isn't Yah gonna shake their world, but we [the righteous] shall not be moved? Isn't one going to drive out a thousand? Will we not be trampling down serpents and scorpions? Will we not see the Day of their Judgment and sentencing, and there will be no more sorrow? Isn't His Kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven?




Offline James  
#2 Posted : Saturday, February 2, 2013 2:25:44 PM(UTC)
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I have seen much disagrment over this topic because some think there isn't one, some see at as post and some as pre, and I have even heard some argue mid. I think the majority here probably would say pre, but I know several who would argue post. Personally I see it as pre.

The paralambano harvest, I don't use rapture because that is Paul's word, a violent snatching away, and is not the same as what Yahowsha described at all, a harvest bring along side, doesn't make sense to take place after the tribulation in my opinion, for many of the reasons you mentioned. If there is one it would only makes sense to be before the tribulation, hence why in Revelation Yahowah promised to keep the Philadelphian's out of the coming period of testing which would test all those that dwell on the Earth. If this is after the tribulation then what time of testing is He speaking of? I have not heard any satisfactory explanation of what period of testing this could be other than the tribulation.

But that is just my view and I am prone to error so I could very well be wrong. I have not invested much time in end time prophecy because quite frankly it just doesn't interest me all that much anymore, I would much rather spend my time studying what Yah revealed in the Towrah. In the end we will find out for a fact the timing of prophetic events soon enough.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Uwdy Jo  
#3 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2013 6:30:37 AM(UTC)
Uwdy Jo
Joined: 11/6/2012(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Duganville

Ah... Camille has pulled back the curtain. And, gazed into the eyes of the 'real' beast.
Observe, closely examine and carefully consider my inner child's perplexity with the fact that with all of the technology available at our finger-tips today, we still can not agree on the fact of when Pesach begins.
Offline dajstill  
#4 Posted : Sunday, February 3, 2013 7:34:40 AM(UTC)
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Camille wrote:
Shalom all,


But if Yahoshua comes at the End, why would we need to go anywhere? Isn't Yah gonna shake their world, but we [the righteous] shall not be moved? Isn't one going to drive out a thousand? Will we not be trampling down serpents and scorpions? Will we not see the Day of their Judgment and sentencing, and there will be no more sorrow? Isn't His Kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven?






From reading Revelation, Isaiah, and Jeremiah - there are several things that happen when Yahowsha' returns. It makes sense that Yahowah's children be harvested, then return. I look at is akin to Dowd in Psalm 91 - remaining stable and fixed under the shadow of Yahowah, Him bearing us up. Seeing destruction, but not being a part of it.

The entire process is a clashing of times. Trumpets, all manner of chaos breaks loose as those who have made the wrong choice try to figure out what the heck is going on. While it is possible to be safe here, I don't really have a desire to be safe in the middle of chaos, I'd rather be resting on Dad's lap while Yahowsha' does His thing.

Another example of this concept can be found in Exodus and what happened when the children of Israel were still in bondage. Some of the plagues affected the entire area, and even those of the children of Isreal needed to say inside their dwelling or suffer the consequences along with the house of Egypt. However, some of the plagues were just for Pharaoh and those that sided with him. It seems that when Yahowsha' returns, those consequences will be suffered by those who don't belong to Yahowah.

Just my thoughts. Guess we will all simply wait and see.
Offline cgb2  
#5 Posted : Monday, February 4, 2013 7:50:52 AM(UTC)
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Camille wrote:
Shalom all,
I am having trouble understanding why people here believe in a rapture. Apart from Pauline doctrine, I don't see it anywhere in scripture that I can find.


I'm increasingly finding as I revist end-tme prophecy with an open mind questioning what I had been taught as an xtian, that I'm seeing a lot of contrived doctrine. Often as isolated verses removed from context around what surrounds it. The rapture I'm still trying to figure out.
Seems FH isn't only troubled by Pauline doctrine but many other things.

Camille wrote:

"One taken, one left behind" is clearly not about a rapture, but about persecuted saints being falsely accused and taken into military tribunals to be imprisoned or put to death. (Revelation 6:9-11, 13:10) In fact, those with the Truth who stand in the way of the Beast's deceptions are already being stalked and defamed with numerous false accusations so that they may be set up for future imprisonment (or labeled "mentally ill" and sent to the psychiatric gulag). Many have already been killed or put away in prisons on false charges.


Yes, much of that has already occured, and continues to occur. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of revelation has already occured. Like the plagues in europe that started out in Constantanople and wiped out a 1/4 or more.


Camille wrote:
Since the Darby/Scofield pre-trib rapture is so blatantly fraudulent (as evidenced by the fact that it is being taught in 95% of the churches, if nothing else), I think it is safe to assume that no one on this forum ascribes to that, and to assume that people here are speaking of a post-trib rapture.


Not just that but much of end-time prophecy is rooted in Darby/Scofield doctrine. Even christian zionism, when it may very well be a thwarting of diaspora, a vehicle to aggitate the world and steer it to a man-made counterfiet of setting up a world leader and 1000 years (4th reicht :). Certainly when I look at world powers and those who control banking, media, news, etc can leave one questioning. Even when checking out thier scriptural support I note it's contrived. Seems Yah will regather from the ends of the earth on his return, even sheltering in a valley. I even question now if all the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same year....that would be 10 days of shock and awe ;^) after the trumpet, to reconcilliation w/Yishra'el and the start of sukkot.

Camille wrote:
But if Yahoshua comes at the End, why would we need to go anywhere? Isn't Yah gonna shake their world, but we [the righteous] shall not be moved? Isn't one going to drive out a thousand? Will we not be trampling down serpents and scorpions? Will we not see the Day of their Judgment and sentencing, and there will be no more sorrow? Isn't His Kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven?


All good questions. I'm also questioning all the elaborate things and leaps taken soley from Daniel 9:27, which I think returns to talking about Mase'yah and is not about anti-messiah 7 year treaties, and such. Could very well lead folks into looking at wrong things, even praising what is evil.
Offline Camille  
#6 Posted : Friday, February 8, 2013 3:43:39 PM(UTC)
Camille
Joined: 11/6/2012(UTC)
Posts: 55
Location: Boston, MA

dajstill wrote:
From reading Revelation, Isaiah, and Jeremiah - there are several things that happen when Yahowsha' returns. It makes sense that Yahowah's children be harvested, then return. I look at is akin to Dowd in Psalm 91 - remaining stable and fixed under the shadow of Yahowah, Him bearing us up. Seeing destruction, but not being a part of it.

The entire process is a clashing of times. Trumpets, all manner of chaos breaks loose as those who have made the wrong choice try to figure out what the heck is going on. While it is possible to be safe here, I don't really have a desire to be safe in the middle of chaos, I'd rather be resting on Dad's lap while Yahowsha' does His thing.

Another example of this concept can be found in Exodus and what happened when the children of Israel were still in bondage. Some of the plagues affected the entire area, and even those of the children of Isreal needed to say inside their dwelling or suffer the consequences along with the house of Egypt. However, some of the plagues were just for Pharaoh and those that sided with him. It seems that when Yahowsha' returns, those consequences will be suffered by those who don't belong to Yahowah.

Just my thoughts. Guess we will all simply wait and see.



I think I have some insights into the distinctions that can sort this out. Psalm 91, absolutely, yes--no matter what we go through, He will bear us up. In the long run it is even a picture of Him fighting our battles for us, culminating in the overthrow of the Beast, which at one and the same time is equally a matter of our doing His Will and fighting His Battle for Him.

Note that it is not just Yahosha coming on a white horse--He comes with a whole brigade of white horses in His army!
(Revelation 19:14) Psalm 68:17 and Zechariah 6 reflect this also--Zechariah's horses and chariots being the "good guys" who are battling against the horses and chariots of Satan--those of Revelation 6.

Yahosha's army does not come in a military sense. The world's counterfeit version will present a military battle in their efforts to subjugate the people to their New World Order. But the real Battle fought by Yahosha's army will be in terms of overthrowing the deception that the wicked are perpetrating, which has most of society already unwittingly under subjugation to Satan and in a mind-controlled haze. Those who have knowledge of the Truth are those called to fight this Battle. Overthrowing the deception is what will make soldiers lay down their arms and turn their swords into ploughshares--it will make wars cease to the ends of the earth! (Psalm 46:9, Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3)

His elite troops are His Elect. They are called prior to His return, during times of world trauma. Being led and empowered by His Spirit, they will be the "shining lights" to the world; those led by His Ruach will open people's eyes to their delusion and call them out of Babylon, so that they may be led in the Way that He is preparing for their deliverance. This is why the Ruach of Yahosha is the Ruach of prophecy--He leads His elect troops through His Ruach. (Revelation 19:10)

The trumpets and vials (or cups, or bowls, depending on the translation) are clearly the tribulations of the wicked after they have been exposed before the world, so that they may seek Him and be cleansed of their sin prior to the soon-to-follow Judgment.

The persecution of the saints, as mentioned in Revelation 6 and 13, is an entirely different Tribulation. The saints are being persecuted at the hands of the wicked--the troops of the Beast. Persecution comes upon the set-apart saints because they have gone out on the front lines, and speak boldly against the Beast. The more victories (souls) they win, correcting duped X-ians, calling people out of Babylon and bringing in misled people of all faiths, and the more power they manifest; hence the more they will be persecuted by the Beast, who will want to stop their mighty works.

Some will survive the persecution of the Beast. Others will die, but in any case it is of no consequence--those who die in service to Yah's army will live. And those imprisoned will be set free. All of the sorrow and suffering that they have been made to endure will all be worth it, because tearing down the darkness that rules the world would not have happened if not for these Ruach-led people of Yah, who accomplish this by following His directives.

This is all consistent with the fact that whistleblowers are being heavily persecuted right now, though the vast majority of the population are not aware of the terror and treason being perpetrated upon these righteous souls at this very time. Those who oppose the New World Order on spiritual grounds will be in the same category of those persecuted, but note the distinction in Matthew 5:10 of those persecuted because they stood for righteousness and opposed the Beast (these could be secular people or people of any religious faith), versus those in Matthew 5:11-12 who were persecuted for His name's sake--those of His army who opposed the Beast and fought in a spiritual war.

Another contradiction of the "rapture" is seen in Matthew 24:27-30:

"For as the lightning shines out of the east, and even shines unto the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
"For wherever the dead bodies are, there the vultures will be gathered.
"Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
"And THEN shall the sign of the Son of Man appear in heaven...."

i.e., those who endure the Tribulation to the very End will be saved. This is echoed in Daniel 12:11-12, and in Revelation 22; the Abomination of Desolation has passed, and three and a half years have passed, before salvation (Yahosha) comes to set up His Throne, and His government of justice and righteousness.

I am speaking from experience as well; as a whistleblower, or maybe even a trumpetblower. I have personally encountered the Beast, and have been put under heavy persecution, as one culled for destruction.


Offline Brimstone  
#7 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 2:09:48 PM(UTC)
Brimstone
Joined: 6/21/2013(UTC)
Posts: 16

I am also having a hard time with the rapture. I understand that Yada is referring to it as the feast of Towarah. Do we know that it is a literal taking of his believers or is it a spiritual separation? Is it symbolic or is it literal and physical? I have looked at a lot of preterist points of view that say that most of Revelations and all of Matthew 24 have already been fulfilled. What is your take on this?
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