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Offline alienmusician  
#1 Posted : Friday, January 11, 2013 11:16:56 AM(UTC)
alienmusician
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Can anyone point (link) me to any info as to the where is it in Scripture to light a candle on every Friday eve for Shabbat? I did read a topic here where Icy (Member) wrote or copy/pasted and article about it, but its not clear as to whether or not candles are to be lightened. I did a couple of searches on the forum and it led me to a dead end on it. Any links would help. Thanks. Shabbat Shalowm. Blessed.
Offline Richard  
#2 Posted : Friday, January 11, 2013 12:14:53 PM(UTC)
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What does the Torah say? Research that, to discover what-if anything-Yahowah said about it. That is all that matters anyway. I am suggesting that you do the search yourself so you'll know that you know; it won't be what someone else told you.
Offline alienmusician  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:23:38 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Flint. I understand that this subject is mostly Talmudic traditions. I just wanted more input from the Yahudim in this forum. Not looking to spark debate, cause while I havent read all the Yada Yahweh, Intro to God and Questioning Paul books, I do understand Yada and most here on where do we stand on Torah and how we are all against religion. Blessed.


Shemowth 35:3 "You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.”
Offline dajstill  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 5:49:09 AM(UTC)
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alienmusician wrote:
Thanks Flint. I understand that this subject is mostly Talmudic traditions. I just wanted more input from the Yahudim in this forum. Not looking to spark debate, cause while I havent read all the Yada Yahweh, Intro to God and Questioning Paul books, I do understand Yada and most here on where do we stand on Torah and how we are all against religion. Blessed.


Shemowth 35:3 "You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.”



A good rule of thumb that I have found is to first ask: Why would Yahowah say that?

After I understand that, it better determines what steps I take.

One of the first steps to answering "why would Yahowah say that" is to get an accurate translation of the verse (and all relevant verses surrounding it). While people can give you what they do/don't do on Sabbath, it is all about personal relationship. Our journey's might result in different ways in which we personally act upon what Yahowah said - this shows up most often that I have seen around the Set Apart Times/Feasts as each home might do things differently.

This also tends to depend on where we are in the journey. When I first started to know Yahowah, I jumped to "doing". Wearing tizits, trying to "rest" just right, trying (and failing) to rid my home of anything and everything that had any link with idolatry (I stopped drinking my daily Starbucks because of their pagan goddess logo). As my personal understanding began to grow, some of the things I was "doing" weren't as intense. I still don't drink Starbucks and it is because of the logo, but I might not ban someone from bringing their pagan cup into my home - as long as they take it when they leave LOL

So, I am not saying "do" means one doesn't understand; it's just that "do" is sometimes an early focus, but "understand" soon becomes the larger motivator. Sometimes we start out wanting to please Yahowah when I think He first wants us to get to know and understand Him. We see that through the life of Dowd/David. Man oh man did he fall short in the pleasing, but through the Psalms we can see how much he knew and understood Yahowah - and that is why Yahowah was so drawn to Dowd. Now, that doesn't mean some of Dowd's screw ups didn't come with a price, there are some big things we need to get right. But, it takes a lot of effort to "do" and a lot of effort to "know". If I had to divide my time I would start with "know", then move on to "do".

When thinking of Yahowah as our Father, I think about my own children. They don't have to "do" a whole lot to be my kids. I want them to know me and understand me rather than simply blind obedience. The reason is because if they blindly obey, but heard me wrong - that could lead to some serious problems. For instance, let's say what they thought they "heard" me say was "touch the hot stove". If they just blindly follow - they may, in obedience, harm themselves quite badly. However, if they know me they would stop and say "why would mom tell me to touch a hot stove!" They would be able to stop and say, "that couldn't have been what she said and if she said it she must not have meant it in that way". Yahowah is offering us a relationship, not a burden. Concentrate on the relationship and a lot of things kind of fall into place.

Again, I am speaking from my own experience and maybe others have different insights.

dajstill
Offline needhelp  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:40:38 AM(UTC)
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alienmusician wrote:
Thanks Flint. I understand that this subject is mostly Talmudic traditions. I just wanted more input from the Yahudim in this forum. Not looking to spark debate, cause while I havent read all the Yada Yahweh, Intro to God and Questioning Paul books, I do understand Yada and most here on where do we stand on Torah and how we are all against religion. Blessed.


Shemowth 35:3 "You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day.”


Isn't fire a metaphor for judgement?
We aren't supposed to do His work for Him, are we?
Especially on the Sabbath.

Maybe it means not to judge on the Sabbath.

Just a thought It would get mighty cold here without
a literal fire right now. (smile)
Offline cgb2  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:22:32 AM(UTC)
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Exo 35:3 Ye shall kindleH1197 noH3808 fireH784 throughoutH3605 your habitationsH4186 upon the sabbathH7676 day.H3117

H1197
בּער
bâ‛ar
BDB Definition:
1) to burn, consume, kindle, be kindled (verb)
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to begin to burn, be kindled, start burning
1a2) to burn, be burning
1a3) to burn, consume
1a4) Jehovah’s wrath, human wrath (figuratively)
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to kindle, burn
1b2) to consume, remove (of guilt) (figuratively)
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to kindle
1c2) to burn up
1c3) to consume (destroy)
1d) (Pual) to burn
2) to be stupid, brutish, barbarous (verbal denominative)
2a) (Qal) to be stupid, dull-hearted, unreceptive
2b) (Niphal) to be stupid, dull-hearted
2c) (Piel) to feed, graze
2d) (Hiphil) to cause to be grazed over
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 263

H784
אשׁ
'êsh
BDB Definition:
1) fire
1a) fire, flames
1b) supernatural fire (accompanying theophany)
1c) fire (for cooking, roasting, parching)
1d) altar-fire
1e) God’s anger (figuratively)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive word
Same Word by TWOT Number: 172


Man I thought I was pleasing god by turning off my furnace and not lighting my woodstove on the sabbath...and we've had nights below zero lately.....just joking BigGrin
Offline Richard  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:44:21 PM(UTC)
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From Logos 4’s TWOT
263 בָּעַר (bāʿar) I, to burn, consume, be kindled. (ASV and RSV similar.)
Derivative
263a בְּעֵרָה (bĕʿērâ) fire.
Of the several Hebrew words which are translated “to burn” two are most often used figuratively. These are bāʿar [note from Richard: this is the word used in Exodus 35:3] and ḥārâ. The others, such as śārap, yāqad, and yāṣat all have to do primarily with literal burning, whereas these two are commonly used to describe anger, passion, intrigue, etc. ḥārâ is confined almost totally to usage with anger, while bāʿar stresses the consuming and contagious qualities of fire especially in the religious context.
In the derived stems (Piel, Pual, and Hiphil) the root is normally used literally. As might be expected from the nature of the stems, the emphasis is upon “causing to burn,” or setting afire (e.g. Ex 22:6 [H 5]). Almost all of these, however, are special cases and have to do with ceremonial burning. So the priests are commanded to burn wood on the altar continually (Lev 6:12 [H 5]; Neh 10:35); the lamps in the sanctuary are to be burning at all times (II Chr 4:20; 13:11). The prototypes of these are the theophanies in which the Lord’s appearances are associated with the continuously burning bush (Ex 3:2–3) and the burning on Mt. Sinai (Deut 4:11; 5:23; 9:15), both of which seem to represent the very character of the righteous and purifying God (II Sam 22:9; Isa 10:17; Ezk 1:13; cf. also Isa 33:14; Heb 12:29). Thus bāʿar is used with “fire” when it is God’s instrument to consume the wicked (Num 11:1; Isa 1:31; 9:18 [H 17]). To be of an alien nature to God is to be as dry tinder before a flame (Isa 10:17). This, the prophets promised, was to be rebellious Israel’s experience before a Holy God (Isa 30:27; Jer 7:20; Ps 83:14 [H 15]; etc.).
The word is also used to describe intense emotions (Ps 39:3 [H 4] Jer 20:9).
בְּעֵרָה (bĕʿērâ). Fire. Appears once in Ex 22:6 [H 5] where it is used as a cognate accusative with bāʿar, “the one who kindled the fire.”

172 אֵשׁ (ʾēš) fire.
Derivative
172a אִשֶּׁה (ʾiššeh) fire offering.
ʾeš appears over 375 times in the Bible. Preponderantly, these references are in the context of either God’s revelation of himself to man (theophany) or man’s approach to God (worship and sacrifice).
According to Gen 3:24, the climax of creation is a sword of fire (lahaṭ haḥereb) placed at the east of the garden of Eden. The only way man could get back in was to go through the fire. As a climax to God’s covenant with Abraham, a flaming fire (lappîd ʾēš) moves between the separated pieces of animals (Gen 15:17) as God’s signature to the contract. The Lord appears to Moses in/as a flame of fire (Ex 3:2), a fire which purged the bush of every bug on it and a fire which protected the bush from any landing buzzard or browsing goat. Moses’ response was one of fear and attraction. He was “lashed with terror, leashed with longing.” The nocturnal pillar of fire preceding and following the people of God in the wilderness guarantees the faithful that they are led and followed by the divine presence. It is not hard to believe that the pulse rate and heartbeat of Moses considerably accelerated when he ascended Mount Sinai, engulfed in smoke (Ex 19:18). To take another portion of Scripture, look at the prophetic literature, the first chapter of Ezk for example. The prophet’s life begins with a vision of God which is determinative for the rest of his life. It is a vision dominated by fire (Ezk 1:26–27). We can appreciate Ezekiel’s problem. He is trying to explain something he has never seen before, i.e. God.
What does fire symbolize in the OT? For one thing it symbolizes judgment. It separates from the tree of life (Gen 3:24). Sodom and Gomorrah are consumed by fire (Gen 19:24). Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, are consumed by fire for offering “strange fire” (Lev 10:1ff.). Was it because they took the fire from a place outside the altar area, or were they under the influence of alcohol, or what? The strategic thing is that they were disobedient at the point of worship. A similar experience befell the sons of Korah (Num 16:1ff.). Ezekiel sees the angelic being scattering coals of fire over backslidden Jerusalem (Ezk 10:2).
On the other hand fire may symbolize cleansing. On the heels of the war with Midian (Num 31) the priest says that anything that passes through fire will be clean (Num 31:21–24). Isaiah saw the temple filled with smoke, saw God’s glory and was purified (Isa 6). Cf. Mal 3:2 for the phrase “refiner’s fire.” This means then that to one fire means death and to another life. To one it means eternal judgment and to another eternal blessing. God’s wrath is against all that is impure.
אִשֶּׁה (ʾiššeh). Fire offering, offering made by fire. The etymology of this word (from ʾēš or something else) is debated (Driver). It can be applied to any offering which was wholly or partially consumed by fire. Thus it is applied to the burnt offering (Lev 1:9, 13); the cereal/grain offering (Lev 2:3); peace offering (Lev 3:3); the guilt offering (Lev 7:5); the consecration offering (Lev 8:28). It is used over sixty times in the OT.

Hope all that helps, brother.
Offline Richard  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:52:08 PM(UTC)
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Yahosha made it pretty clear that Yahowah's intent for the Sabbath was not to shackle and hamstring His people. After all, Yah is reasonable and caring. Therefore, it isn't sensible to believe that He was telling us not to warm ourselves or that we ought to stumble around our homes in darkness on the Sabbath. Such strict and idiotic rules are applicable to the gods of the religions, but not to Yahowah.

Notice, if you will, the reference to "strong emotions" in the Psalms in the definitions above. I am reminded of how Yoseph counseled his brothers not to argue among themselves on their trip home to fetch Ya'aqob and their families. Perhaps Yah is telling us not to lose our tempers on our day of rest.

It might even be that this is a caution against doing anything ceremonial. That too would fit the definitions.

Dajstill was spot on with her counsel, in my opinion.

Yah bless!
Offline James  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:57:37 AM(UTC)
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First let me say I love Dajstill's post, and completely agree.

And with putting understanding first in mind I have a few thoughts on Shemowth/Exodus 35:3

First I not htat it is not extant in the DSS so all we have to go by is the MT.

The operative words of the sentence are ba'ar 'esh.

ba'ar here is scribed in the piel stem and prefixed in the imperfect form. This tells us 2 things. The piel stems tells us the the instruction is not to bring about this state of ba'ar, hence why it is often translated kindle. So if we were to assume that ba'ar means burn then it is saying don't bring about the state of burning, or don't start a fire. This is why many Jews will start their fires before the Sabbath and then add to them throughout the Sabbath. This is carried over in modern Judaism by many who will not turn on a light on the Sabbath, but will simply leave them on from the previous day, or they will start the oven and leave it run etc etc. Secondly the imperfect prefix is all about on going action, or actions in progress. So it would most accurately be rendered do not continuously bring about the state of fire.

Beyond that, my first inclination when I come to a verse like this that seems to be more command then instruction is to look at alternative renderings of the words to see if something fits better. Logos is keyed to English translations and the KJV especially, so when I click on any link under the word I am going to be brought to ba'ar, burn. Not trusting man I scroll down and look at all the other words that are made with the ba aiyn resh root, and find 3 entries. I use the Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semitic Domains: Hebrew as my primary, and first dictionary, and go from there, so that is what I will cite from here.

DBL 1277 is ba'ar burn

DBL 1278 is ba'ar purge, remove or rid

DBL 1278 is ba'ar verb form to be senseless

DBL 1279 is ba'ar n senselessness or stupidity

each of these have a broader definition then this which is why I provided the DBL numbers so those with access can look them up, but that is the basic.

So if we assume that fire is meant by 'esh then our options are:

Do not bring about the state of fire

Do not bring about the removal of fire

Do not start to be senseless fire

And since the fourth is a noun and the word is presented as a verb in the sentence there is no viable translation.

So one of the possible renderings is nonsense unless you think God is worried about us being senseless fire, although if you view fire as a metaphor for judgment then you could see it as don't start to be senseless judgment, but why would that only be on the Sabbath. So I think it is safe to say that is not what was intended.

So now we are left with two possible renderings which are almost opposite of each other.

So let's examine the second word in question 'esh. 'esh most basically means fire, flame, or even lightening. So the definition of 'esh doesn't really help us when determining rather Yahowah is telling us not to start a fire in our homes, or not to remove a fire from our homes.

Based solely on that I would lean toward God instructing us not to remove fire from our homes. And here is my reasoning for what it is worth. A cold home in winter is unhealthy and can lead to death, not exactly what Father would want for His children. Also fire is light and light is a metaphor from God so the implication being do not remove God's light from your home on the Sabbath. To me this just seems to fit better, but I could be wrong. Personally speaking as someone who heats his home by fire during the winter I rarely have to start a fire I keep it going, stir up the coals and add more wood, so short of when I let it die to clean out the ashes I don't need to start a fire, and I don't clean the ashes out on the Sabbath, because I hate doing it and it wouldn't be very restful.

With all that said I would like to add a theory. I will start with I can't back this us because as I stated earlier this verse is not extant in the DSS. My first thought when I saw purge and remove before a feminine form for the word fire was to think of Yah's instructions pertaining to Kippuriym, and I thought that the proper translation would be do not purge or remove the adoptive mother, ie. the ruwach ha qowdesh, from your homes on the Sabbath. This seemed to me like it would fit in perfectly with Yah's instructions, just as on Kippuriym we where to come into the presence of Her so should we too on the Sabbath. That was what I expected to find, but the existing evidence did not bear that out. The 'issah spoken of in Kippuriym is Alef Shin Hey and the 'esh in this verse is just Alef Shin. That said my theory would be that 'issah was originally scribed. The dropping of a Hey could have been the result of scribal error, dating of scrolls or deliberate. Again just my theory.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline cgb2  
#10 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:17:52 AM(UTC)
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Great discussion! I wonder if more can be gleaned from the context surrounding that verse?
Excuse the ISR1998 translation. Although better than most, it's likely still poor, expecially in revealing how Yah often speaks on multiple levels at the same time (spiritual/physical,etc).

Even in the physical, I still have yet to try to start a campfire without matches (friction w/wood), but from watching Survivorman, Cast Away, etc, quite a bit of physical exertion required.

.......
Exo 34:31 But Mosheh called out to them, and Aharon and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him, and Mosheh spoke to them.
Exo 34:32 And afterward all the children of Yisra’ĕl came near, and he commanded them all that יהוה had spoken with him on Mount Sinai.
Exo 34:33 And when Mosheh ended speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.
Exo 34:34 But whenever Mosheh went in before יהוה to speak with Him, he would remove the veil until he came out. And when he came out he spoke to the children of Yisra’ĕl what he had been commanded,
Exo 34:35 and the children of Yisra’ĕl would see the face of Mosheh, that the skin of Mosheh’s face shone, and Mosheh would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.
Exo 35:1 And Mosheh assembled all the congregation of the children of Yisra’ĕl, and said to them, “These are the Words which יהוה has commanded you to do:
Exo 35:2 “Work is done for six days, but on the seventh day it shall be set-apart to you, a Sabbath of rest to יהוה. Anyone doing work on it is put to death.
Exo 35:3 “Do not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Exo 35:4 And Mosheh spoke to all the congregation of the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, “This is the word which יהוה commanded, saying,
Exo 35:5 ‘Take from among you a contribution to יהוה. Everyone whose heart so moves him, let him bring it as a contribution to יהוה: gold, and silver, and bronze,
Exo 35:6 and blue, and purple, and scarlet material, and fine linen, and goats’ hair,
Exo 35:7 and ram skins dyed red, and fine leather, and acacia wood,
Exo 35:8 and oil for the light, and spices for the anointing oil and for the sweet incense,
Exo 35:9 and shoham stones, and stones to be set in the shoulder garment and in the breastplate.
Exo 35:10 ‘And let all the wise-hearted among you come and make all that יהוה has commanded:
.....
Offline cgb2  
#11 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:48:56 AM(UTC)
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^ Been meaning to try that sometime while camping. But even then, I'd use more "advanced" technique: Like shaft, shot-glass for top rotation and downward pressure, bow made from bent branch w/cord or shoestring, plank with divot & and v-groove near side - sitting on fine dry shavings/kindling sitting in something ready to pick up and blow to transfer into larger kindling sticks....
but likely frustate and wear oneself out.

<beating chest>..."Me have fire" LOL
Offline alienmusician  
#12 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 12:02:23 PM(UTC)
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Shabbat Shalowm everybody. First of all thank you all for your input and advice. I truly appreciate it. Second of all, the reason I asked for your input is to point out the whole lighting a candle every Friday, if your married then your wife will do the prayer, if not then the guy prays, etc,. Ive searched Yada's books for a rendering of Shemowth chapter 35, and had no luck figuring out on when did this tradition came to be cause there's not an exact accurate translation of it, like 'James' pointed out ThumpUp. Since the Siddur came out of the Talmud, thats the only place it kinda brings light into doing it but it doesnt give you any history on it (obviously lol). Personally Im totally against it, and Ive come to understand that it doesnt make sense, also in the renewed covenant, there doesnt seem to be (or maybe I missed it) Yahshua ever giving an example of it. Now He being against tradition and all, it kinda makes sense that their would be no mention of it in His time.

I'm just looking for a little proof to show my messianic friends that they need to stop playing around with the Talmud, and that just because their little gathering takes into consideration some of the Talmud and change some words around in the Siddur, to make it appeasing and think that this is ok with Yahowah, is completely wrong. You cant follow tradition and think that your ok with Yah. So this whole lighting a candle thing is to literal, and being to literal in Scripture opens up many interpretations, and this is another can of worms. If I had a fireplace I will light a fire, but since I have a heater, its already on, lol. Maybe im wrong, but these little traditional routines are what gives empowerment to Judaism and since Judaism is a religion, im not for it.

If still anyone here can provide me with a source, if possible or if it exist, of when it started, who started it and how can we tie it talmudic tradition, id greatly appreciate it. I ask cause Ive searched google a lot, and it always points me into the direction of Judaic websites.

Thanks.
Shabbat Shalowm.
Blessed.
Offline cgb2  
#13 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 12:33:08 PM(UTC)
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alienmusician wrote:
....Second of all, the reason I asked for your input is to point out the whole lighting a candle every Friday, if your married then your wife will do the prayer, if not then the guy prays, etc,.....


Mat 6:5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the congregations and on the corners of the streets, to be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mat 6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place. And your Father who sees in secret shall reward you openly.
Mat 6:7 “And when praying, do not keep on babbling like the gentiles. For they think that they shall be heard for their many words.
Mat 6:8 “Therefore do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Seem to recall a more in depth topic on prayer in "Pray for me, Pray for you" or something like that.
Offline dajstill  
#14 Posted : Saturday, January 19, 2013 3:42:00 AM(UTC)
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alienmusician wrote:
mention of it in His time.

I'm just looking for a little proof to show my messianic friends that they need to stop playing around with the Talmud, and that just because their little gathering takes into consideration some of the Talmud and change some words around in the Siddur, to make it appeasing and think that this is ok with Yahowah, is completely wrong. You cant follow tradition and think that your ok with Yah. So this whole lighting a candle thing is to literal, and being to literal in Scripture opens up many interpretations, and this is another can of worms. If I had a fireplace I will light a fire, but since I have a heater, its already on, lol. Maybe im wrong, but these little traditional routines are what gives empowerment to Judaism and since Judaism is a religion, im not for it.

If still anyone here can provide me with a source, if possible or if it exist, of when it started, who started it and how can we tie it talmudic tradition, id greatly appreciate it. I ask cause Ive searched google a lot, and it always points me into the direction of Judaic websites.

Thanks.
Shabbat Shalowm.
Blessed.


No amount of "proof" or reason will help with your Messianic friends. The fact that the entire candle lighting issue isn't found anywhere in the Torah, Prophets, or Psalms shows they are governed by Scripture not put forth by Yahowah or His clearly appointed messengers. They have already chosen to follow "another voice", so even if you found scripture (of where there is many) to show there is not instruction on candle lighting or specific prayers - it won't matter. They are following another voice. Like Christians follow Paul and Muslims follow Mohammad - Messianic's tend follow Rabbi. When clear scripture from the Torah, Prophets, or Psalms contradict the teachings of a Rabbi, they will still follow the Rabbi.

If, for your own entertainment, you want to find references to refute them that is fine. But, I have found Messianic believers to be as firm in their beliefs as Christians. In fact, most many Messianic tend to just be another Christian denomination. I have found infighting to be a very good way to show the weaknesses in belief systems because they point them out. So, I would head in the direction of Karaite sources of information for all that is wrong with the Talmud. Karaites are believers in the Tanak, but reject the Talmud and they tend to have good information on all the flaws with the Talmud.
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