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Offline dajstill  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 5:02:08 AM(UTC)
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I have seen noted by Yada as well as many Christians that the message to the assembly of Laodecia is to Protestant Christians. I guess my question is why? Why would Yahowsha' be speaking to Christians who believe in a totally different God? I have been thinking about this a bit and wonder - why wouldn't it be to Orthadox Jews, Karaite Jews, or even Jews that believe that Bar Koba or some other person was the Messiah? At least they haven't totally rejected the concept of the Torah?
I guess I am confused as to why Yahowsha' would focus on speaking to a group of people that have fully rejected Yahowah, His Torah, and made a mockery of Yahowsha' as opposed to others that are confused and misled, but haven't all out rejected Yahowah and don't actually despise and hate the Torah.

Any thoughts on that? This is because Yahowsha' mentions standing at the door and knocking, so He is pursuing these people.
Offline needhelp  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:10:18 AM(UTC)
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Have you read this
http://yadayah.com/Yada_...n_Religion_Laodicea.YHWH
He mentions why he thinks Yahowsha is knocking. Glad to know I'm not the
only one with questions about everything.

I don't think it is so much the christians verse wayward Jews
as it is the "church of the day". People of the time. Neither for or
against Him. Warm water is hard to swallow, makes one want to
upchuck. Yahowah still wants them to answer His knock. Yeah
or Nay, no inbetweens. That' why he is knocking one last time.
Just a thought.
Offline dajstill  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:59:07 AM(UTC)
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needhelp wrote:
Have you read this
http://yadayah.com/Yada_...n_Religion_Laodicea.YHWH
He mentions why he thinks Yahowsha is knocking. Glad to know I'm not the
only one with questions about everything.


I had read it and it makes sense; but it also would work for Orthodox Jews, Karaite Jews, etc. Especially with the concept being "people who legislate" - modern Judaism is all about laws while Christianity is more about do what they will. If he was speaking to a "country" it would make sense that He was talking to the USA, but I don't think He was speaking to a "government", but a "people" and it makes more sense in my mind that His final call would be for those practicing Jews. I guess I am beginning to not see the difference between Protestants and Catholics. Other than not praying to Mary, Protestants are pretty similar to Catholics. They pray to and for the dead, celebrate all the Catholic holidays (many Protestant churches now openly embrace Lent), the Protestant communion isn't that much different from Eucharist.

For practicing Jews, they celebrate some Feasts, but not all of them (like Seven Sevens), but they also incorporate quite a few extra "holidays" (like Hanukkah). They are just as confident in their own riches as Protestants, but without the outright hate of Yahowah's Torah that Protestants have - they is why I was questioning why Yahowah would reach out to Protestants at all. I will have to read through that section of Yada Yah again and do more thinking on it. I am just torn on Yahowsha' reaching out to them as His final outreach and not to Jews (who are just as misguided, but at least they "think" they love the Torah and Yahowah). Will have to think on this a bit more.
Offline dajstill  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:05:57 AM(UTC)
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needhelp wrote:


I don't think it is so much the christians verse wayward Jews
as it is the "church of the day". People of the time. Neither for or
against Him. Warm water is hard to swallow, makes one want to
upchuck. Yahowah still wants them to answer His knock. Yeah
or Nay, no inbetweens. That' why he is knocking one last time.
Just a thought.


I didn't see this piece when I replied earlier and I agree with you on this one. It just doesn't seem like the final knock would be for Christians. I could be wrong, but it just doesn't make sense; or I will say the final knock being for Jews seems more logical than the final knock being for Christians.
Offline Steve in PA  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:43:59 PM(UTC)
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Maybe the Greek book of Revelations is dubious ...???
Offline cgb2  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:02:07 AM(UTC)
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Seems most of the 7 ekklesia were condemned by Yahowsha. For Laodecia, even though xtian altar calls often use "I stand at the door and knock..." this is Yahowsha standing outside, not a part of it and appealing to let him also using metaphor to wedding supper of the lamb (??).
Most 7 show corruptions that have separated them, with Yahowsha urging to them to repent.

Note Yahochannan seen this "Rev 1:10 I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,..."
(incidentally removing the problem of Yahowsha's prophecy that if anyone claims to see me until I return in great glory and every eye will see me and relating it to trumpets), but yet these were examples of 7 in asia minor and the various corruptions that seem to fit both distict periods of those who claim to follow messiah, and yet also all exist at the time of the end. Also ones that fit well with history and the rest of revelation...like souls calling out under the altar, and the periods of persecution, torture and murder of set apart ones by some of these corruptions.

Not sure if this would be related to Jews who have rejected the "suffering Masse'yah" since they wouldn't even acknowledge or be listening to Yahowsha, and are counting on their own works and rituals to save them. They will remain blind until the time of the end, until they mourn for the one they have peirced after he gathers them from the ends of the earth upon his return.
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:15:21 AM(UTC)
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Personally I don't think it is speaking just to Protestant Christians, I think it is speaking to everyone in that position, it's just that the majority of people in that position today are Protestant Christians.

All of the letters in revelation are addressed to all of us, one of the reasons I love to study them.

The Laodecians most prominent characteristic was being lukewarm and lacking passion. Different sects of religious Jews are not lukewarm and lacking passion, their passion is misplaced but it is there, they are boiling hot but not for Yah or His Towrah, for their own Law and their own religion. Protestants on the other hand are largely lackadaisical, at least the majority. Most everyone I know claims to be a christian but never opens a "bible", never goes to church, never does much of anything. They say they are Christians because that is what they were raised. The ploy of grace attracts them, "I say I am a Christian and I go to heaven when I die. Okay that is all I need. Now i'll continue about my life." They are not passionate about God, they aren't even passionate about their religion, they just are. They are lukewarm.

That is not to say that it doesn't apply to others as well. There are plenty of Jews that would fall into this category as well, I know a few of them.

Basically the letter is penned for those that have the Truth in their hands and would rather watch American Idol then read it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline JamesH  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:34:56 PM(UTC)
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As Djstill mentioned and asked, " why would Yahowsha be speaking to Christians who believe in a totally different god?"

I also wonder," why Yahowsha would be addressing any Christian assembly in revelation?"

Other than to express complete disapproval.

I don't think I have found in the TP&P where there should be a established church or synagogue of anykind anywhere.

I think there is only one temple and we are waiting for YHWH to return and dwell again with us.    The third temple 


Disclaimer: this is only my personal belief. Not meant to offend anyone.
JamesH
Offline FredSnell  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:45:21 PM(UTC)
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JamesH wrote:
As Djstill mentioned and asked, " why would Yahowsha be speaking to Christians who believe in a totally different god?"

I also wonder," why Yahowsha would be addressing any Christian assembly in revelation?"

Other than to express complete disapproval.

I don't think I have found in the TP&P where there should be a established church or synagogue of anykind anywhere.

I think there is only one temple and we are waiting for YHWH to return and dwell again with us.    The third temple 


Disclaimer: this is only my personal belief. Not meant to offend anyone.
JamesH


I don't think they did believe in a totally different God, JH. When Constantine moved to the Lords day the script flipped
for anyone that didn't take a stand against this abomination. This forced Yahowsha to the outside looking in on those He
cherised before. I think the "Cherstucians" were, "The Way." And many more than likely either got worn down, or either
joined what they couldn't beat, say, "read the handwriting on the wall." Instead they should have held true to Gods day
and read the handwriting on the stone tablets. Unless I'm missing something. It's called Judeo-Christian for a reason, right?
Offline dajstill  
#10 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:19:22 AM(UTC)
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encounterHim wrote:
I don't think they did believe in a totally different God, JH. When Constantine moved to the Lords day the script flipped
for anyone that didn't take a stand against this abomination. This forced Yahowsha to the outside looking in on those He
cherised before. I think the "Cherstucians" were, "The Way." And many more than likely either got worn down, or either
joined what they couldn't beat, say, "read the handwriting on the wall." Instead they should have held true to Gods day
and read the handwriting on the stone tablets. Unless I'm missing something. It's called Judeo-Christian for a reason, right?


ecounterHim - it is a different God. What Christianity has become for the most part today is Pauline Doctrine. Sometimes we confuse the Puritians with modern day Christians. The Puritans, though using a flawed text, we really trying to get back to what early (Pre-Constantine)Chestiality was all about. That is why the banned pagan holidays including Christmas and Easter. From what I have read, they weren't "Paulinites".

Modern day Christianity is now very much rooted and grounded only in Pauline Doctrine and Pauline Doctrine clearly states the God of the Old Testament is gone and there is a new covenant with a new God - a God of Grace. This is actually a site that one of my Christian friends sent me to to help me "understand my flawed thinking": http://sigler.org/walter/law.htm. It clearly indicates there was a "Law God" and a "Grace God". This is what is being taught in many churches and what is believed by most Christians today. They are not only not "under the Law", they are no under the "Law God". Christianity today is really Pauline Doctrine.

I agree with you that there was the Cherstucians, but there were wiped out pretty early (who knows, maybe they were wiped out with the temple itself). Some tried to keep a sembalence of what that group taught and knew and there have been movements throughout history with people try to restore the teachings of those early Cherstucians. But, they aren't at all the same group as Christians.

I had to reject every single solitary thing I "believed" as a Christian when I met Yahowah. Nothing was right, not one piece of it. Had I been a "Cherstucian" there may have been little I needed to learn with a little nudging here and there. No, everything was wrong and warped and bent and blinding. Even the "Judeo-Christian" concept is a false one. People often say our Constitution was built on the principles of the Torah - it's not. Slavery could have never existed in this country had it been because in the Torah, you couldn't kidnap someone into slavery. You also had to let an escaped slave remain free. Slavery would have lasted about 10 minutes in the "New World". I am not saying the Constitution is bad, it isn't; it just isn't grounded in the Torah. Also, the many good parts of the Constituion weren't available to everyone (like slaves and women). The Torah was everyone, native born or stranger dwelling in the land. Our Constitution stated everyone had a right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", then it limited who "everyone" actually was. What I am saying is sometimes we glamorize the "Judeo-Christian" aspects that just aren't there in reality. We also tend to link the Puritians (still a flawed group, but trying) with the Founding Fathers. Those were two very different groups of people. The Founding Fathers were steeped in Masonry and other suspect groups.

So yes, the Chrestucians (those who were learning from the disciples) were probably as close to being what Yahowah had planned mankind to live their lives, but they time was short lived unfortunately.
Offline James  
#11 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:27:09 AM(UTC)
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JamesH wrote:
s Djstill mentioned and asked, " why would Yahowsha be speaking to Christians who believe in a totally different god?"


Why would he be speaking to Jews who believe in a totally different God? The Jewish God is just as errant as the Christian God.

Like I said he is not addressing any assembly, he is addressing a mindset, a group of characteristics. That mindset and those characteristics exist in many different assemblies.

If you view the 7 letters as prophetic, which I do, they are describing the decline of those that know God. It starts great, but gets worse and worse. Other than Ephesus, Smyrna and Philadelphia none of the assemblies addressed know Yah, but they can all still turn around and come to know Him, because they do have the Towrah.

The last two, the two most prominent in today’s world are the Philadelphians, those who cling to Yah with a passion, and the Laodiceans, those think they have all they need and think they He is with them when He is not. That applies to Protestant Christians, Jews and even some Catholics.

JamesH wrote:
I also wonder," why Yahowsha would be addressing any Christian assembly in revelation?"


He is speaking to anyone who will listen. The assemblies which they are addressed to existed at the time, and embodied these characteristics and traits; they were all mostly Yahuwdi racially and were followers of the Towrah who had realized who Yahowsha was. Prophetically speaking they are addressed to anyone who would read them and teach us what Yah likes and what he dislikes. It’s written to you and to me. But the traits that it describes for the Laodiceans fit the religious, which is why Yah is telling them to change if they want a relationship with him.

JamesH wrote:
I don't think I have found in the TP&P where there should be a established church or synagogue of anykind anywhere.


No there isn’t. And the assemblies to which he was addressing these at the time were not that. They were really nothing more than what we are here in the forum. A group of people that are gathering to discuss and striving to understand Yah better, just back then there were enough in one town to be able to gather whereas we have to gather online from all over the world just to get a handful.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#12 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:29:39 AM(UTC)
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I was thinking about this

Quote:
I have been thinking about this a bit and wonder - why wouldn't it be to Orthadox Jews, Karaite Jews, or even Jews that believe that Bar Koba or some other person was the Messiah?


And I another answer would be why address them when they won't be reading it. Everyone of those groups reject Yahowsha, so why would he address them, none of them would read it anyways.

Christians at least think they know him, and will be the ones reading what he said. So he addresses them in hopes that they will come to know him.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline JamesH  
#13 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:08:12 AM(UTC)
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dajstill wrote:


Modern day Christianity is now very much rooted and grounded only in Pauline Doctrine and Pauline Doctrine clearly states the God of the Old Testament is gone and there is a new covenant with a new God - a God of Grace. This is actually a site that one of my Christian friends sent me to to help me "understand my flawed thinking": http://sigler.org/walter/law.htm. It clearly indicates there was a "Law God" and a "Grace God". This is what is being taught in many churches and what is believed by most Christians today. They are not only not "under the Law", they are no under the "Law God". Christianity today is really Pauline Doctrine.




Hi Djstill 

The religion is called Gnosticism and is based on a demiurge .

Paul and Marcion were very involved in the spread of the religion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope
Offline FredSnell  
#14 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:45:42 AM(UTC)
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What seperates us? We all would say, we observe the Shabbat, given!..And we observe His Called Out days to read and recite, given! We all try our best to know the "real" name He asked us if we know Him and His Set-Apart by, Proverbs 30:4, given! And we all try our dang est to observe His Torah, given!

Now what I was trying to convey about them, (laodiceans) and God looking in, is just what Yada has mentioned numerous times about close counterfeits, and how they are actually the very worst of the worst, just b/c they are so beguiling, they can and have tricked the set-apart ones too, and so close a counterfeit, that it pulls Yahowsha to its very entrance before even He recognizes Satans ploy and then sounds the warning about them.

So I continue to believe God showed us a parallel in the beginning that we can use in the ending, and that's the seven ill cows, choking down the seven well cows in the 1st book.
Genesis.
41:19 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them, poor and very ill favoured and lean fleshed, such as I never saw in all the land of Egypt for badness:
41:20 And the lean and the ill favoured kine did eat up the first seven fat kine:


We know Yahowsha spoke of, the kingdom to come, in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyathira, Sardis, Philadelphia (Hi All), and of course, all those in the Laodicean assembly(gathering) we knew and loved in the Laodiean (those who legislate) assembly today, where we even ourselves, in parallel, lived once too b/c it is so close. But that is the worse. By being so close, (lukewarm)..haha, Luke, we are deceived by a closeness that I'm glad Yahowsha stopped me from ever entering again.

Pauls visits consisted of these, and if you parallel these, with Rome being his last, [ill cow] [RCC], it has choked down the last, [well cow][Protesters who legislate] the Laodiceans. They should have continued their protest and not got eaten. But they were either worn down and gave in, and let learning stop. I view them as happy in their merriment the RCC has given them.

Pauls assemblies ended up wolfing down Yahowshas assemblies in the end. Crete, Thessalonia, Colossi, Phillipi, Galatia, Corinth and Rome are the seven ill cows. He was garmented to appear as a sheep, and got so good at it, that only those that are scattered (us maybe?) recognize the wolf and his ploy for the adversary.

Matt: 24, 24
For there shall arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I ask, who hears voices all the time and who witnesses to miracles continually and are doing healing's constantly? We all know who. Why they cast out demons in exorcisms as they call on their Lord. I think we see they can do these things, but at whose bequest are these answered, their Lord, of course.

The reason I used protest with the Laodiceans is because when you have a right to protest, it's usually so you can change some type of legislation.
Offline Bubsy  
#15 Posted : Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:11:48 AM(UTC)
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From re-reading the Yada Yah chapter on Laodicea (pronounced how? "Lay-oh-diss-ee-ah"? "Lay-oh-dice-ee-ah"? "Lay-oh-dick-ee-ah"? "Lay-oh-dike-ee-ah"?), it looks like Yahowsha is pursuing all who are neither Yahudim, his family, destined for eternal spiritual life, nor Ba'alym, his inalterable enemies, already pronounced "dead". That's my take on what the Laodicea assembly is. It does seem to be in Europe, the Americas, and Australia where most people think their god is the god of the Towrah and refer to him as "God", rather than by a name different from Yahowah, and therefore most likely to have any chance of recognizing Yahowah is his name.
I do wonder why he would say he wished anyone was cold/inert where in the letter he says, "You are neither cold nor hot/boiling with passion. I wish you were cold/inert or hot/passionate." I could definitely see why he would wish we were all zealously passionate, but why the opposite? So that he could write such people off as hopelessly lost? To hurry up the day when everyone has finally made their final choice on whose side they are on, Yahowah's or Satan's, so he can act without infringing anyone's free will? The first reply saying that lukewarm water is hard to swallow, and tends to make you want to upchuck maybe provides a hint, as we tend to like our drinks either hot, like cocoa, tea, coffee, or ice cold with water, milk, lemonade, beer, and soda. But I also remember something about Yahowah is unwilling that anyone should die. Wishing anyone were "cold/inert" would seem to be out of character for him. Maybe someone has a better explanation.
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
Offline Sarah  
#16 Posted : Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:18:34 PM(UTC)
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My understanding of the 'hot' and 'cold' is this:

The formulation of the eye cream made in Leodicea need both very hot water and very cold water; 'lukewarm' water would not work. Both 'hot' and 'cold' were, therefore, 'useful'/productive; Yahowah is simply saying He wishes they were 'useful' implements, but they are not.
Offline cgb2  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:49:45 PM(UTC)
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Maybe because lukewarm's effect on misleading others. A false hope but also repugnant to rational people. Killing 2 birds with one stone Confused
Offline Richard  
#18 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:59:57 AM(UTC)
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Sarah wrote:
My understanding of the 'hot' and 'cold' is this:

The formulation of the eye cream made in Leodicea need both very hot water and very cold water; 'lukewarm' water would not work. Both 'hot' and 'cold' were, therefore, 'useful'/productive; Yahowah is simply saying He wishes they were 'useful' implements, but they are not.


If we were on "Family Feud" together, I would be yelling, "Good answer!" Also, hot water makes for great coffee and tea, and cold water is refreshing all by itself, as well as when used to make iced tea and such. But tepid, flavorless water is revolting (to me, at least), and I would have no problem spewing it out of my mouth in disgust.

I guess we can safely infer that useless, passionless people are not among Yahowah's favorites. And why should they be, seeing they're too self-centered or distracted to let themselves burn within for our Heavenly Father? My 2 cents worth. Your mileage may vary.
Offline Bubsy  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, March 18, 2014 7:00:09 PM(UTC)
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Sarah wrote:
My understanding of the 'hot' and 'cold' is this:

The formulation of the eye cream made in Leodicea need both very hot water and very cold water; 'lukewarm' water would not work. Both 'hot' and 'cold' were, therefore, 'useful'/productive; Yahowah is simply saying He wishes they were 'useful' implements, but they are not.


Oooooooh, I like it! If there's a link to prove that's how their Phrygian powder was made, that would indeed explain it. The Laodiceans of the time would definitely have understood the significance of hot and cold being useful, but not lukewarm. I think we have the answer. It's probably a worthwhile explanatory addition to the Laodicea chapter of Yada Yah if that gets modified again.
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
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