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Offline knowing1  
#51 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2012 3:14:04 PM(UTC)
knowing1
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Some food for thought...If the reference is actually a "young woman" and not "a virgin" then this would resolve a substantial portion of the conflict. In fact, it was pretty much a given, back in the day, that a young woman was a virgin until she wed and the marriage was consumated.

I remember reading this somewhere, but can't recall exactly where. Also, have not had the opportunity to fully understand the true meaning of this passage with the Hebrew words in context.

Shabbat Shalom to all!!
Offline JamesH  
#52 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:39:39 AM(UTC)
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cgb2 wrote:

I'm along way from dismissing the eye-witness accounts as wrote by haBAAL though.



How many holes do you need to shoot in something before it is no good?  ;) aiming eye ;)
Offline cgb2  
#53 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2012 8:18:56 AM(UTC)
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JamesH wrote:
How many holes do you need to shoot in something before it is no good?  ;) aiming eye ;)

Not just one thing to broad brush and paint the entire thing "haBAAL" for sure.

In this case I'd have to research history, see if maybe the roman empire matches much of the footprint of assyria, since Yah often refers to names existing at the time of the revelation, even though named different when fulfilled later. See if there were 2 kingdoms laid waste during the time of messiah. Check out evidence of scribal tampering. Often Yah says soon, or mixes near and far future as almost concurrant. Like Daniel praying for understanding and messenger taking 19 days (fighting the prince of persia)...then off to fight the prince of greece, with greece empire still 100's of years yet future. Daniels prophecy exact date of the arrival of messiah.
100s of thing before dismissing the eye-witness accounts.

I've already been down that trap of since x is corrupt or since pagans do x, we must be think or do the opposite. The adversary rarely does the opposite or 100% lies or they wouldn't fool most anyone. He works in counterfeits...a good dose of truth mixed with a smidge of poison.
Offline dajstill  
#54 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2012 3:17:05 PM(UTC)
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cgb2 wrote:

I've already been down that trap of since x is corrupt or since pagans do x, we must be think or do the opposite. The adversary rarely does the opposite or 100% lies or they wouldn't fool most anyone. He works in counterfeits...a good dose of truth mixed with a smidge of poison.


I think this is a really key point. The adversary changes a word here, a stanza there. It is believable because it "sounds" right.

I think my question to JamesH is "do you need the NT to believe Yahowsha' came? The prophesies are pretty good (at least according to what I have read in YY and ITG) about when He was coming and what He would do. The eye witness accounts are interesting commentary, but not quite necessary for me to believe the work of Passover, Unleavened Bread, and FF was accomplished by Yahowsha'.

For instance, there is no "eye witness" account of Adam. It is believing that Moseh had an accurate record and that record was passed down effectively enough over time that enough is preserved to get a good understanding of the work of Yahowah. I can believe it because it makes sense, historically, scientifically, and rationally. I can also believe that "erets" means "land" and not the whole earth. So, I can believe that the flood of Noah was a regional issue as opposed to an entire earth event. Especially since the dimensions of the ark are known and it would have needed to be a lot bigger to include all the animals of the world, but would have been a reasonable size to include all the animal varieties for a region of land.

Okay, I'm rambling - but I guess JamesH I am asking if taking away the NT/Eye Witness accounts actually changes your view of Yahowsha'. It actually doesn't for me, but I would love to hear your take on that.
Offline JamesH  
#55 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2012 4:48:03 PM(UTC)
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Yes dajstill  taking away the nt and focusing on the Torah is what changed my mind.

In the Torah Yah saved (yahowsha) the Children of Israel literally, and Yah literally  fulfilled the first five Feast and Festavals.  

I am guilty of being a teacher and a Deacon  of the nt for many years in a missionary baptist church and it makes Me ill when I think what I taught people, "Paul, the Law done away , GRACE but be good and tithe, the lords supper,it goes on and on."


I've read and listened to everything Yada and KP have written since 2007 and thank them for starting me on my journey to seek YHWH and I found YHWH  in his Torah. "not in the nt"

I retired a year ago at 55 and have spent a lot of time studying how the nt came about," founding fathers, original papyrus, church history, emblem symbolism ,on and on.  I did not find YHWH in the nt. I found Ha Baal

And now as cgb2 would  say get to the point ;)

I no longer believe that YHWH Saves came in 33ce or was a sacrificial lamb or hung on a pole on and on.

YHWH  saves through His Covenant  agreement, "literally" in His Torah!


Jim H
Offline cgb2  
#56 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2012 9:44:19 PM(UTC)
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JamesH wrote:
.....
And now as cgb2 would say get to the point ;)

I no longer believe that YHWH Saves came in 33ce or was a sacrificial lamb or hung on a pole on and on.

YHWH saves through His Covenant agreement, "literally" in His Torah!


Jim H


After further investigation, sumarizing main point:
Ahaz was king of Yahuda. He feared Yishreal and Syria. ALthough a difficult prophecy, I side far more with the argument: Because I've prophecied Masseyah will come via Yahudah, trust that you won't be destroyed. Yahuda will be destroyed after time of Masseyah (70 AD)....because they failed to realize the time of thier visitation (only seeing the reigning king prophecies), and will remain blind until the time of the end, only to mourn for the one they have pierced.

The opposing view seems far too contrived seeking to deny corporeal manifestation of Yah when the T/P/P is rife with suffering implement and even exact date of arrival. The T/P/P speaks in far more detail of Masseyah than the eyewitness accounts....and affirms rather than contradicts, except in cases usually found out to be scribal tampering.

Thanks for being direct, but I strongly disagree and pointless to continue discussing this.

Edited by user Sunday, October 7, 2012 4:22:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: amplify 70 AD to time of end

Offline dajstill  
#57 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2012 2:20:53 AM(UTC)
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JamesH (Jim H),

I agree with cgb2 in thanking you for actually being direct in your response.

I also can't go with you on the assertion that Yahowsha' didn't come in 33 CE or that Yahowah isn't going to do the work through the Feast He asked man to observe. The view that Yahowah saves through His Torah only doesn't make sense. So, building or not building a fence along a flat roof determines whether or not Yahowah will save you? It makes more sense that the Torah is a set of instructions/advice from a loving Father that wants us to have success, peace, good health, and good relationships here on earth. His dietary instructions are for our health and wellness, but I can't see eternal separation because someone ate a ham sandwich. Also, it all seems a bit silly, the entire happenings of the last almost 6,000 years if man had the ability to save himself simply by following the Torah. It also seems a bit weird - did Dowd take all the necessary steps for his errors in not following the Torah, or is he banned to eternal separation for his tryst with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband? What about Moseh? Since he wasn't able to enter the promised land because of his disobedience in not following Yah's instructions to the letter, are we to believe he is eternally separated? He did, in fact, die "outside" of the promised land. Was that a literal sign of the fate of Moseh?

In my mind, first comes relationship - then comes the Torah. That is why the Torah was for those "inside" the land, but there was only one for native born and those not native born (adopted). Just like I was first my children's parent, then comes my loving instructions. And, some other kid can follow my instructions to the letter, even better than my own children - that doesn't make them my child. What matters is relationship and you are born into it through the covering of the Set Apart Spirit. Yes, there are some things "we" have to do, but it starts with the same journey as the children of Israel took - leaving Babylon/Mystriam/Egypt or whatever corrupt system of politics/religion/culture you are currently in and walking towards Yahowah. However, the journey is mute without a Passover Lamb, and unblemished sacrifice to pay the price of failing to uphold the covenant - and they failure is always on "our" part.

It is quite easy for me to see that the actual Passover was symbolic simply because the children of Israel failed so quickly after the event. The whole rescuing would have been useless if their walk needed to be perfect. Also, with the corruption of scripture over time, how do you are following the Torah completely? What is some piece got left out 3,000 years ago and you also needed to eat three pieces of fruit each day, or that structure on your roof needed to be 32 inches high exactly?

I believe we all have to walk our own journey, so my goal isn't to convince you to rethink or reconsider. Just wanted to point out that even when I leave out the NT, I don't end up at the same place as you do. Do you listen to Nehemiah Gordon? Your thoughts align completely and exactly with the Karaite Jewish religion.
Offline JamesH  
#58 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2012 4:25:53 AM(UTC)
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Thanks dajstill  for your reply

I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I was asking questions to see what other people believe on a specific  subject and why (to convince myself ) that's why I didn't get to the point of the subject.

I totality agree with you on " we all have to walk our own journey " and I have stepped out on a different path, I might have to "shuwb" 



I have been here at YY a long time and consider all of you brothers and sisters and have found that this is the only place where I can bring up these questions in a debate to seek out the answers. I've always believed good debate brings out good answers and makes us stronger in YHWH word.

I don't listen to Nehemiah Gordon only Yada

You brought up a bunch of subjects in your post and each one would need individual attention.

I have to disagree with you on the ham sandwich and David  to start with.

Yah's word said David's sin deserved death but Yah had mercy on him. 
David,s sin did recieve judgment and David said" it was a just judgment"  

 According to Yah's word David became the greatest King ever to keep, observe and do Yah's commandments  

By the way, you guys and gals didn't do very well at convinceing me that the immaculate virgin birth took place.  

Cgb2 was quite right when he said " it brings up a whole amount of other issues"

Eh Steve thanks for getting involved in the debate early on. And your humor 

Jim H
Offline dajstill  
#59 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2012 5:12:10 AM(UTC)
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I looked into the karaite perspective early in my journey which is the only reason I brought it up, not thinking you were influenced by them; just wondering if you looked into them.

I have seen lots of various debates and conversations on this site, so I can't see having this debate as a reason to leave. I enjoyed being challenged to see why I think/believe some of the things that I do.
Offline cgb2  
#60 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2012 6:50:44 AM(UTC)
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JamesH, although you came off as entirely dogmatic and unchangable, "maybe I need to shuwb (turn around, reconsider)" makes me want to re-engage.

Although I thought "sign" & "virgin" was more than adequately proven, it seems perhaps is far more related to a broader picture of - "because I was lied to, I will throw out the bath water, the baby, and the tub". Perhaps with time and further study, you will see how one must ignore or torture a lot of prophetic scripture to come to that conclusion.

For starters - Although I'm no expert on DSS vs Masoretic text, I've seen enough to conclude:

1) Often inserted "Master, Lord" associated with YHWH. Since they claimed to speak for him, gotta have a "lord" so people won't mind their oppresive works based religion.

2) Often altered text that strongly implied corporial manifestation of YHWH, because they didn't believe that.

3) Instead of YHWH afflicting himself, altered to man afflicting themselves and doing works earning favor.

4) In the DSS complete Isaiah scroll alone there are 2460 alterations (or was it 2640 ?). The people arguing they are typos, and doesn't change the meaning is a hoot, since change 1 letter in most hebrew words it renders an entirely different word and meaning.

5) A living example of GOd's endorsement of the Massoretes - NOT!! - was the poisoning of the Gihon Spring in 1033CE (5000 Yah) forcing them flee and move thier Jerusalem academy to Damascus. Incidentaly 1000s of xtian pilgrims were poisoned that same year. No doubt this water born illness made "the adulterous woman's thigh and belly rot" ;^)

Edited by user Monday, October 8, 2012 12:12:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: 1033 5k Yah

Offline cgb2  
#61 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2012 5:45:27 AM(UTC)
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JamesH wrote:


Yes nice list of oldest surviving manuscripts copies, but hardly any indicator of when they were wrote.

Edited by user Sunday, October 21, 2012 9:21:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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