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Offline RidesWithYah  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 1:31:44 PM(UTC)
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So, apparently there is a claim among Karaites that the title Elohim has pagan roots and should not be associated with Yah.
Specifically, they claim that 'El was a Canaanite deity, from whom the term derived.

Any truth to this?
Are 'El or 'Elohim found in the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Other thoughts or comments?

Peace.
Offline Yah Tselem  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:14:55 PM(UTC)
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Yes there are pagan roots to 'El, which makes sense considering Yah uses it in the Towrah to describe false gods (elohym). It makes no difference because it is only a title and not a name. 'God' has pagan roots too.. so does 'cereal', 'achilles heal', 'cloth' and a whole bunch of other words but we still speak English so we can't get away from saying them. So whether you say Yahowah Elohim or Yahowah God, they both have pagan roots - but just a title so no big deal IMO.
Offline James  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:58:46 AM(UTC)
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Don't know if 'El was a Canaanite deity or not, but since Scripture uses 'El, 'Eloah, and 'Elohiym as titles for Yahowah I don't have an issue with it. There is absolutely no evidence that any of the 'El based titles were added, the oldest manuscripts all contain them. Unlike 'adoni where the DSS show us that it was used to replace Yahowah on many occasions. So if there was ever a time when the 'El titles were not used we have no record or evidence of it.

'El is the Hebrew word for mighty one, it is a title which Scripture applies to both false gods and the real God. I would ask them what Hebrew word was supposedly used in place of 'El? What evidence do they have of this?
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Theophilus  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:31:05 AM(UTC)
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The information here looks correct to my understanding aslo, that is, El be both a generic title for mighty one and a reference to a specific Pagan Cannainte god and apparently the chief god of their pantheon. My thought is rather than transliterating either Germanic or Semitic titles, God or El, it would be more appropriate to translate the titles meaning as Mighty One when refering to Yahowah and when rendering amplified Scripture convey the El or elohim so that context can be retained, as in caseslike Psalm 22 it meaningfully shifts.

for backgound, you can look at and consider what wiki has to say on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Quote:
ʾĒl (written aleph-lamed, e.g. 𐎛𐎍, 𐤀𐤋, ܐܠ, אל, إل or إله etc.) is a Northwest Semitic word meaning "deity", cognate to Akkadian ‘ilu and then to Hebrew עֵלִי: Eli and Arabic إيل).

In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Eli or Il was the supreme god,[2] the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the goddess Asherah as recorded in the clay tablets of Ugarit (modern Rās Shamrā - Arabic: رأس شمرا‎, Syria).[2]

The noun ʾēl was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of gods or the Father of all gods, in the ruins of the royal archive of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. The bull was symbolic to El and his son Ba'al Hadad, and they both wore bull horns on their headdress. [3][4][5][6] He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam, and Mot.

Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull god"). He is bātnyu binwāti ("Creator of creatures"), ’abū banī ’ili ("father of the gods"), and ‘abū ‘adami ("father of man"). He is qāniyunu ‘ôlam ("creator eternal"), the epithet ‘ôlam appearing in Hebrew form in the Hebrew name of God ’ēl ‘ôlam "God Eternal" in Genesis 21.33. He is ḥātikuka ("your patriarch"). Ēl is the grey-bearded ancient one, full of wisdom, malku ("king"), ’abū šamīma ("father of years"), ’ēl gibbōr ("Ēl the warrior"). He is also named lṭpn of unknown meaning, variously rendered as Latpan, Latipan, or Lutpani ("shroud-face" by Strong's Hebrew Concordance).

Their exerpt on the entry of El and the Hebrew Bible relates:

Quote:
The Hebrew form (אל) appears in Latin letters in Standard Hebrew transcription as El and in Tiberian Hebrew transcription as ʾĒl.

El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch,[11] or Yahweh.

In the Tanakh, ’elōhîm is the normal word for a god or the great god (or gods, given that the 'im' suffix makes a word plural in Hebrew). But the form ’ēl also appears, mostly in poetic passages and in the patriarchal narratives attributed to the P source. It occurs 217 times in the Masoretic text: 73 times in the Psalms and 55 times in the Book of Job, and otherwise mostly in poetic passages or passages written in elevated prose. It occasionally appears with the definite article as hā’Ēl 'the God' (for example in 2 Samuel 22.31,33–48).

The theological position of the Tanakh is that the names Ēl and ’Ĕlōhîm, when used in the singular to mean the supreme and active 'God', refer to the same being as does the name, Yahweh. All three refer to the one supreme god who is the god of Israel, beside whom other gods are supposed to be either non-existent or insignificant. Whether this was a longstanding belief or a relatively new one has long been the subject of inconclusive scholarly debate about the prehistory of the sources of the Tanakh and about the prehistory of Israelite religion. In the P strand, YHVH says in Exodus 6.2–3:

I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name, Yahweh.
This suggests the identity of Yahweh with either Ēl, in his aspect of Shaddāi, or with a god called Shaddāi.[citation needed] Also suggested is that the name Yahweh is a more recent revelation.[citation needed] Before El's revelation with the name of Yahweh, It is said in Gen 14:18-20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon.[12] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl. In some places, especially in Psalm 29, Yahweh is clearly envisioned as a storm god, something not true of Ēl so far as we know (though true of his son, Ba'al/Hadad). (Noted Parallel: El is derived from Sumerian Enlil, God of Wind.[13]) It is Yahweh who fights Leviathan in Isaiah 27.1; Psalm 74.14; Job 3.8 & 40.25/41.1, a deed attributed both to Ba’al/Hadad and ‘Anat in the Ugaritic texts, but not to Ēl.

Such mythological motifs are variously seen as late survivals from a period when Yahweh held a place in theology comparable to that of Hadad at Ugarit; or as late henotheistic/monotheistic applications to Yahweh of deeds more commonly attributed to Hadad; or simply as examples of eclectic application of the same motifs and imagery to various different gods. Similarly, it is argued inconclusively whether Ēl Shaddāi, Ēl ‘Ôlām, Ēl ‘Elyôn, and so forth, were originally understood as separate divinities. Albrecht Alt presented his theories on the original differences of such gods in Der Gott der Väter in 1929. But others have argued that from patriarchal times these different names were indeed generally understood to refer to the same single great god, Ēl. This is the position of Frank Moore Cross (1973). What is certain is that the form ’ēl does appear in Israelite names from every period including the name Yiśrā’ēl ('Israel'), meaning 'ēl strives' or 'struggled with él'.

According to The Oxford Companion To World Mythology (David Leeming, Oxford University Press, 2005, page 118), "It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the 'God of Abraham'...If El was the high god of Abraham - Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh - Asherah was his wife, and there are archeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the seventh century B.C.E. (See 2 Kings 23:15)"

The apparent plural form ’Ēlîm or ’Ēlim 'gods' occurs only four times in the Tanakh. Psalm 29, understood as an enthronement psalm, begins:

A Psalm of David.
Ascribe to Yahweh, sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm),
Ascribe to Yahweh, glory and strength

Psalm 89:6 (verse 7 in Hebrew) has:

For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm).

Traditionally bênê ’ēlîm has been interpreted as 'sons of the mighty', 'mighty ones', for, indeed ’ēl can mean 'mighty', though such use may be metaphorical (compare the English expression God-awful). It is possible also that the expression ’ēlîm in both places descends from an archaic stock phrase in which ’lm was a singular form with the m-enclitic and therefore to be translated as 'sons of Ēl'. The m-enclitic appears elsewhere in the Tanakh and in other Semitic languages. Its meaning is unknown, possibly simply emphasis. It appears in similar contexts in Ugaritic texts where the expression bn ’il alternates with bn ’ilm, but both must mean 'sons of Ēl'. That phrase with m-enclitic also appears in Phoenician inscriptions as late as the 5th century BCE.

One of the other two occurrences in the Tanakh is in the "Song of Moses", Exodus 15.11a:

Who is like you among the gods (’ēlim), Yahweh?
The final occurrence is in Daniel 11.36:

And the king will do according to his pleasure; and he will exalt himself and magnify himself over every god (’ēl), and against the God of gods (’ēl ’ēlîm) he will speak outrageous things, and will prosper until the indignation is accomplished: for that which is decided will be done.
There are a few cases in the Tanakh where some think ’ēl referring to the great god Ēl is not equated with Yahweh. One is in Ezekiel 28.2, in the taunt against a man who claims to be divine, in this instance, the leader of Tyre:

Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: "Thus says the Lord Yahweh: 'Because your heart is proud and you have said: "I am ’ēl (God), in the seat of ’elōhîm (God or gods), I am enthroned in the middle of the seas." Yet you are man and not ’ēl even though you have made your heart like the heart of ’elōhîm ('God' or 'gods').'"
Here ’ēl might refer to a generic god, or to a highest god, Ēl. When viewed as applying to the King of Tyre specifically, the king was probably not thinking of Yahweh. When viewed a general taunt against anyone making divine claims, it may or may not refer to Yahweh depending on the context.

In Judges 9.46 we find ’Ēl Bêrît 'God of the Covenant', seemingly the same as the Ba‘al Bêrît 'Lord of the Covenant' whose worship has been condemned a few verses earlier. See Baal for a discussion of this passage.

Psalm 82.1 says:

’elōhîm ('God') stands in the council of ’ēl
he judges among the gods (elohim).

This could mean that God, that is Yahweh, judges along with many other gods as one of the council of the high god Ēl. However it can also mean that God, that is Yahweh, stands in the divine council (generally known as the Council of Ēl), as Ēl judging among the other members of the Council. The following verses in which God condemns those whom he says were previously named gods (elohim) and sons of the Most High suggest God is here indeed Ēl judging the lesser gods.

An archaic phrase appears in Isaiah 14.13, kôkkêbê ’ēl 'stars of God', referring to the circumpolar stars that never set, possibly especially to the seven stars of Ursa Major. The phrase also occurs in the Pyrgi Inscription as hkkbm ’l (preceded by the definite article h and followed by the m-enclitic). Two other apparent fossilized expressions are arzê-’ēl 'cedars of God' (generally translated something like 'mighty cedars', 'goodly cedars') in Psalm 80.10 (in Hebrew verse 11) and kêharrê-’ēl 'mountains of God' (generally translated something like 'great mountains', 'mighty mountains') in Psalm 36.7 (in Hebrew verse 6).

For the reference in some texts of Deuteronomy 32.8 to 70 sons of God corresponding to the 70 sons of Ēl in the Ugaritic texts see ’Elyôn.


Respectfully,

-Theophilus
Offline cgb2  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:06:59 PM(UTC)
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Ackkk - Sorry, this wiki author lost any credibility when he turns Exodus
6:2-3 from Yahowah's rhetorical question into a statement and spins it. Sheesh, why read any further.
I've also added further proofs that Abraham, Isaac & Jacob knew Him by name.

Tired of folks painting the beguiling/true portions and similarities of pagan counterfeits into a broad brush to
discredit Yahowah's word. All of the same origin, babel/confusion.

Theophilus wrote:

....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)
....
....In the P strand, YHWH says in Exodus 6.2–3:

I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but

was not known to them by my name, Yahweh.
This suggests the identity of Yahweh with either Ēl, in his aspect of

Shaddāi, or with a god called Shaddāi.[citation needed]......



ISR 1998
Exo 6:1 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “Now see what I do to Pharaoh, for with
a strong hand he is going to let them go, and with a strong hand he is
going to drive them out of his land.”
Exo 6:2 And Elohim spoke to Mosheh and said to him, “I am יהוה.
Exo 6:3 “And I appeared to Aḇraham, to Yitsḥaq, and to Yaʽaqoḇ, as Ěl
Shaddai. And by My Name, יהוה, was I not known to them?
Exo 6:4 “And I also established My covenant with them, to give them the
land of Kenaʽan, the land of their sojournings, in which they have
sojourned.

YY amplified
Chapter 6
1 And then (wa) Yahowah (YHWH) said (‘amar) to (‘el) Moseh (moseh), ‘So
now (‘atah) you will see (ra’ah) what (‘asher) I will do (‘asah) to (la)
Pharaoh...Need rest of Verse 1…2-3And (wa) God (‘elohym) spoke (dabar) to
(‘el) Moseh, and (wa) said (‘amar) to (‘el) him (hu), ‘I am (‘any)
Yahuweh (YHWH). I was seen by (ra’ah ‘el - appeared and became visible
to) ‘Abraham, to Yishaq, and to Ya’aqob as (ba) God (‘el) Almighty
(saday). And (wa) My name (shem) Yahuweh (YHWH) was [not (lo’)] known
(yada’) to (la) them (hem).’ 4-6And also (wag am), I established (quwm -
stood upright on behalf of) My Covenant Relationship (beriyth - pledge,
familial alliance, agreement, and marriage vow) with (‘eth - near and
among) them, to (lo) give (nathan - grant, deliver, and bestow to) them
the land (‘erets - region) of (‘eth - associated with) Kan’an (kan’an -
to subdue, subjugate, and humble), in whose (ba ‘eth ‘asher) land (‘erets
- realm) they had lived (guwr) as foreigners (magowr - illegal aliens).

Gen 13:4 to the place of the altar which he had made there at first. And
there Aḇram called on the Name of יהוה.

Gen 25:21 And Yitsḥaq prayed to יהוה for his wife, because she was
barren. And יהוה answered his prayer, and Riḇqah his wife conceived.

Gen 26:18 And Yitsḥaq dug again the wells of water which they had dug
in the days of Aḇraham his father, for the Philistines had stopped them
up after the death of Aḇraham. And he called them by the names which his
father had called them.
Gen 26:19 But when Yitsḥaq’s servants dug in the wadi and found a well
of running water there,
Gen 26:20 the herdsmen of Gerar strove with Yitsḥaq’s herdsmen, saying,
“The water is ours.” And he called the name of the well Ěseq, because
they strove with him.
Gen 26:21 And they dug another well, and they strove over that one too,
and he called its name Sitnah.
Gen 26:22 And he moved from there and dug another well, and they did not
strive over it. And he called its name Reḥoḇoth, and said, “For now
יהוה has made room for us, and we shall bear fruit in the land.”
Gen 26:23 And from there he went up to Be’ĕrsheḇa.
Gen 26:24 And יהוה appeared to him the same night and said, “I am the
Elohim of your father Aḇraham. Do not fear, for I am with you, and shall
bless you and increase your seed for My servant Aḇraham’s sake.”
Gen 26:25 And he built an altar there, and called on the Name of יהוה,
and he pitched his tent there, and the servants of Yitsḥaq dug a well
there.

Gen 28:16 And Yaʽaqoḇ awoke from his sleep and said, “Truly, יהוה is in
this place, and I did not know it.”

Gen 32:9 And Yaʽaqoḇ said, “O Elohim of my father Aḇraham and Elohim
of my father Yitsḥaq, יהוה who said to me, ‘Return to your land and to
your relatives, and I do good to you,’
Offline Yah Tselem  
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:03:39 AM(UTC)
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Great posts all and great catch CG. They really twisted that Exodus verse (no surprise there). I think when wiki said "El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch,[11] or Yahweh." - that pretty much says it all. I like Theo's idea (and I think JB has said this too) - just translate it as mighty one(s) and use 'El or Elohim in the parenthesis of your amplified translation - that way the problem is solved(and that also solves the problem of the pagan word 'god'). What makes sense to me is that 'El was the original title for God (real and false) and then people took that title and used it to name their false gods.
Offline dajstill  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 3:34:47 AM(UTC)
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In reading through this thread, I am wondering if this is the "chicken and egg" debate when it comes to pagan origins of a word. We know that paganism and false "god" worship and religion started as early as Nimrod - who I believe was the great grandson of Noah. Something was going on even earlier than that because YHWH needed to flood the entire area - saving just Noah and his family.

I contrast that to some of the Hebrew roots Christians I have been meeting lately. The use most of the same words that we use - but they are speaking of very different things. When a Hebrew roots Christian speaks of YHWH - they are speaking much more closely to the Christian concept of Him. They even celebrate the Set Apart Times - but in a vastly different way (charging for Passover Meals to be done in a church, engaging in communion, etc.). So, does someone incorporating pagan rituals into, say Shabuwa make Shabuwa pagan?

This is a really good topic because I have been running into this quite a bit myself - seeing the Set Apart being mixed with the profane. It is creating a kind of hybrid religion where folks have all the right "words", but something is definitely off.
Offline FredSnell  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:52:22 AM(UTC)
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Funny daj, I myself was thinking this yesterday after watching a video on how pagan christianity has become, and how pagan it has been, and the guy in the end was in some way making excuses that I ended up turning it off before I finished it. I have a somewhat jealous nature myself, so I can only imagine after showing us just how jealous He is, and knowing He's consistant, why would you even considering rebelling one iota. No way no how!!!
Offline cgb2  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, May 23, 2012 12:32:56 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, pagan words and roots is an interesting study. For instance: Come out of her my people" by Koster and "Fossilized Customs" by Lew White. But many can really get carried away too.

I used to attend a little ereb shabat (that's Friday evening...oops "Friday" is pagan) gathering for dinner, song and study, but eventuually split rather harshly over Paul. This group aspired to be a business, er I mean ministry, even being enticed by a "large donor if they would become a 501c3 corporation", so therefore was really dog headed about Paul no matter what...but I digress.

Anyway, by thinking the "renewed covenent" had already occured and verses about clean lips/pure language, they strived to never say any english words with pagan roots. Almost comical at times, but extremely frustrating to speak english often pausing to pantomine or word guesses. Days of the week was always numbered, but got confusing since we think in namedays going from midnite to midnight. Dates could only be refered to as numbers (M/D/Y). Never say "God" since that root of Gott a proper name for ancient teutonic deity. Can't say "east" but "west OK, etc. Quite maddening. Talk about a burdensome stone.
Offline Richard  
#10 Posted : Friday, May 25, 2012 6:04:01 AM(UTC)
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There are also those who turn blue and purple and convulse if we use the word, "God". The Hebrews said, "Mighty One," and we who speak English say, "God," which means exactly the same thing. So why some folks want to wax stupid over using the word "God" is beyond me.
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