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Offline Chrestucian  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:15:35 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 8/29/2011(UTC)
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Certainly the Top Ten are a given. But 613 commandments seems to be the accepted Torah total. How many really apply to us? and how many are repeats?

It says in 16 different ways "don't commit incest." Just among us, I think we've got that one handled. Speak up if I'm wrong. :)
At least five deal with leaven at passover.
Understand what is an idol, and don't go there! would cover about 50.
Priestly practices, temple stuff and sacrifices take up several dozen.

When Yehushua was asked what was most inportant, he paraphrased and by doing so included about half the list.

I'm not asking what rules don't matter, but there are certainly rules encompassed within other rules, rules that don't impact our lives, and rules that are a bit too difficult to keep, such as "To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city." (My displeasure with that one is probably why my whole country is going to burn.(What stays in Vegas, poisons us all))

Anyhow, I digress... I got the list here... http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

I'm going to try and hash out a 'functional' list for myself, and I think any discussion on the subject is a good thing. Ideas?

Offline Matthew  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 4:34:14 PM(UTC)
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Chrestucian wrote:
Certainly the Top Ten are a given. But 613 commandments seems to be the accepted Torah total.


We should not fall at hurdle created by man. Things is, we should never put the Torah into point form, we shouldn't break it down into a list of do's and don'ts because then we lose understanding of the implied deeper principles. Though there is one pattern I do recommend people try figure out, and that's the 6+1 pattern found throughout the Torah.

CHrestucian, if you got some time please read Ken Power's The Owner's Manual, he pretty much dismantles Maimonides work.
Offline Chrestucian  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:07:05 PM(UTC)
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Hi Matthew,

Matthew wrote:
We should not fall at hurdle created by man. Things is, we should never put the Torah into point form, we shouldn't break it down into a list of do's and don'ts because then we lose understanding of the implied deeper principles.

Yes I understand this. Yet I am rather at a turning point in my walk. The decision to turn away from the faith only ideal(not) is rather strange. One of the items that has always been held up to the masses is the "law is a curse" lie. I've only today actually examined it and looked at what the commandments consist of. It isn't as daunting as one might have been led to believe. Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying it's cake, but it is certainly not 613 dos and don'ts that apply to my every day. The list I need to remain aware of is much shorter.

Matthew wrote:
Though there is one pattern I do recommend people try figure out, and that's the 6+1 pattern found throughout the Torah.

Challenge accepted.

Matthew wrote:
CHrestucian, if you got some time please read Ken Power's The Owner's Manual, he pretty much dismantles Maimonides work.

I'll look at it. I've been slowly working through the books links at YY, and as reality would have it The Owners Manual is at the bottom of the list.

Thanks for your reply!

EDIT: Not familiar with Maimonides. Just looked him up on Wikipedia. I don't know why or why not he needs to be dismantled, but as I said, I'll check it out.
Offline Matthew  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, August 31, 2011 7:05:37 PM(UTC)
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Chrestucian wrote:
Yes I understand this. Yet I am rather at a turning point in my walk. The decision to turn away from the faith only ideal(not) is rather strange. One of the items that has always been held up to the masses is the "law is a curse" lie. I've only today actually examined it and looked at what the commandments consist of. It isn't as daunting as one might have been led to believe. Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying it's cake, but it is certainly not 613 dos and don'ts that apply to my every day. The list I need to remain aware of is much shorter.


Right on the money here. The 10 Commandments are really there to help us live right with God. Basic commands that we can follow to live pleasing God. They are central to one's obedience to God. However, to understand God's reason behind it all we can find the answer hidden deep in the Miqra'ey, the 7 Called-Out Assemblies, commonly called Feasts. So for example if we were to turn it into a list of what and whatnot to do on a particular Feast we will lose sight of its meaning.
Offline shalom82  
#5 Posted : Sunday, October 16, 2011 8:38:49 PM(UTC)
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I don't really understand what Uzi's value is to this community is....seeing that he is advocating goyim to become Noachides...thus saying they are "right" with YHWH if they fulfill the 7 noachide laws. It would seem to me that the flaw is rather self evident. If you are a Noachide and basically have to only make sure you wipe the seat if you sprinkle when you tinke....and there is a Jew who jumps through all the hoops and does his utmost to understand and abide by the thousands upon thousands of laws and interpretations of laws that are put on him...then do you get the ranch floor plan in the suburbs of new Jerusalem while he gets a mansion that is virtually next door to YAH? And think about how wonderful Yah would be if that is actually what He advocated. "Oh, Father....how must I know you and serve you?" YHWH: "oh...yeah....there's 7 laws...there really easy...just look into them....and do them and you'll be OK in my book"...."Oh, YHWH....I really didn't discover much about you in learning and doing the 7 laws and I want to know you more and have a relationship with you and take on more responsibility and serve you all the more." YHWH: "Errr....well...I guess....um...you could convert to Judaism." "Do you recommend that, Father?" YHWH: "Errr....not really...I mean...I'm ok with what we have...it's pretty hard and all. to tell you the truth I am not really into having a really committed relationship right now." Does this really match up with the all consuming jealous exacting love that we have all come to lvoe and expect from Abba? Not in my book. Furthermore he says that this is a possible stepping stone to orthodox judaism. From your position as a noachide you can decide if you want to take on all of the "halakha". I am not trying to come down on any of my brothers or sisters here on this forum....but this racializing nonsense doesn't do a bit of good. Oh..am I a "true" Yisraeli....do I have the blood of Abraham or am I from Ham or Yapheth....oh what to do what do do...and people agonize and then get swayed by garbage religious doctrines like "true israel" or noachidism. Personally from what I see in the Tanakh....YHWH doesn't give a lick about race or color or origins. "MY father was a wandering Aramean......" It is not about where you come from....it is about where you are willing to go...and it is not a partial thing....it is the covenant and nothing less....and over and over again....you accept the covenant and it is just as if you are native born. People make a lot about.....Caleb the Kennezite or Ruth the Moabitess or Zelek the Ammonite or UrriYah the hittite....and we wonder why are they still classified by where there origins are.....and I have wondered that same thing.....We have heard so many lies and been told how to behave by christians and jews and messianics and noachides that we don't know what to do with ourselves and how are we to behave and what are our "obligations" as "believers"....and we are insecure and wondering if we really are the second class citizens that they make us out to be. And I have realized just recently....The people like Caleb and Ruth and UrriYah and ObadYahu are not distinguished by their national origins to divide and make tiers of citizens. These people were participating in the covenant....and THAT is why they were named. To make explicitly clear the inclusiveness of YHWH. Look at some of these people people from Moab and Ammon and Edom (ObadYahu) hated enemies of Yisrael "raze it...raze it to it's very foundation!!!"
It is enough....to say simply "Your people my people your God my God" ('amekh 'ami we'lohaikh '
elohai" as Ruth said....a woman even from the worshippers of baal peor I thought we had this pretty well sorted out. YHWH is not into this racializing. He puts us in places for a reason. It doesn't matter if we come out of Ur or USA. Sometimes the closer we are to YHWH....the farther we are from Him. What are the chances that members of Neturei Karta or the more chauvanistic sects of the Haredim will shed religion and embrace YHWH? We all have our own journies out of the fever swams of politics and religion...and all of the inherent pitfalls like chauvanism and racializing. And I think that that is something that is very important to YHWH. I don't know about you but I see all this evidence that YHWH is saying that He really doesn't need this garbage....so IF you are coming out... don't bring it with you. If it is important to you....then stay in the world. I don't know about you but if I wanted racializing religions I would embrace islam or mormonism....or for that matter judaism. I am not a Noachide.....I am a Yahudi....I belong to Yah.....I am a man of the covenant. Yes there is a reason for blood....but the heart matters much more. I think Ezekiel explains that pretty well.

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Steve in PA  
#6 Posted : Monday, October 17, 2011 3:17:14 AM(UTC)
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^ well said.

Just curious shalom82... what general area of "penna" are you in? I'm about an hour south of Harrisburg.
Offline shalom82  
#7 Posted : Monday, October 17, 2011 5:09:32 AM(UTC)
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eh steve I am about 50 miles SE of Pittsburgh. More South than East...at least I think....haha

Another thing comes to mind about race in the Tanakh.

It has to do with YHWH's response to Miriam (specifically) when Aharon and Miriam berate Moshe for the fact that he had a Cushite wife. There is the interpretation that that in fact Moshe had another wife other than Zipporah....but I think the evidence is lacking. If somebody has a different perspective or more evidence by all means share. But I at this time conclude that they were speaking of Zipporah and calling her a cushite as a sort of semi racial expletive. Because Zipporah was not a cushite...she was a Midianitess....and what happens.

YHWH turns Miriam leperous white....now I could be wrong....but to me this all adds up....Miriam is slagging off both Moshe and Zipporah because of her origin and her dark appearance....and boom....YHWH turns Miriam leperous white....as if to say "You like being "white" so much and think it makes you superior....then try this on for size"

To me this is once again pointing to the fact that YHWH esteem those who esteem him and that is the only requirement.

I don't know I could be wrong....but if YHWH wanted a monochromatic world...He could have done so....for that matter Yahudim are not exactly pure....If I can go to Israel and see Red haired ashkenazim and then go and see Cochin indian Yahudim and even kaifeng Chinese Jews and black African lembas and hispanic sephardim.....then I think we can conclude that YHWH isn't really into "purity"

Edited by user Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:15:28 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline FredSnell  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:53:09 AM(UTC)
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I like, Uzi. I don't agree with him all the time, but he gets me thinking and searching out why I think he's wrong on certain things. Ask him, s82. He will answer back I'm sure. We have had a few debates and I'm not up to his understanding on certain viewpoints, but just b/c he holds these views doesn't mean I want try and help him change his view if I find he's wrong. So far he thinks he's right all the time, and it makes me laugh b/c his wisdom abounds, in his mind...lol
Offline shalom82  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:14:44 AM(UTC)
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well here is the thing encounterhim. Uzi has been around forever. This is not the first time I have encountered him and I have actually debated him before. He has been pushing the noachide/orthodox halacha route for a long time. As you say he is wise in his own mind. And it is not just a matter for me of thinking he is wrong or not quite there in his thinking. It is not like he is advocating something that is inconsequential. Noachidism is horrible. I have already written why I come to that conclusion. It separates the participant from YHWH. And to represent Noachidism as anything other than what it is (a system of belief that does not allow the participant to covenant with YHWH) is an expression of hatred and emnity toward humanity (whether you are ignorant or not). At best Noachidism pushes complacency. It is an enabler that suggests that virtual igrnorance is a good substitute for relationship....even worse however is the fact that Noachides are not allowed to read the entire Torah and Noachides are not permitted to observe Torah precepts fundamental to covenant participation. I don't know what else to say. So....no....I am not really a fan of Uzi.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline FredSnell  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:59:50 PM(UTC)
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shalom82 wrote:
well here is the thing encounterhim. Uzi has been around forever. I am not really a fan of Uzi.


I didn't say or promote his message I hope, I just like the guy. I find myself attracted to a lot of people I disagree with on many matters. I should have told you first off, "you were and are right about him." He adds no value I know this, but these differing viewpoints are those of the majority. We should understand what will cause rise in the days ahead, when whats deemed easy to hate those that will adhere to Torah instructions and not back down from their position in it, will set them apart. We will, I feel show our hand by remembering and observing by obeying All His Commandments and Sabbath observance will show all those around us/ our neighbors, we are trying to be in complete agreement with our Fathers instructions. Basically pointing the finger at ourselves intentionally. And by chance if that doesn't get you reported to the authorities when the, Noahide laws are finally in full "execution", well let the Feativals begin then. I understand how far out there these ppl are, and there's
plenty, and many, bc preachers and pastors and rabbis and immans around the u.s., are picking up on these 7 laws and pushing them on their own congregations. When if they would just teach, “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.” (Ex. 12:49) They themselves would be getting a better perspective the same as their founders had when they first wrote their own constitution.


Sorry, I really didn't mean to come off as if I was promoting him. I'll be more careful on that brother. If you went toe to toe with him and couldn't budge him, then I am wasting time.

As far as "he" goes, he knows i'll recognize that beard from under his mask, when and if the time comes. I would love nothing more than to be on the block and just vanish from under their axe, but if I don't, what's another 1/10th of a second matter, compared to eternity. Our even better, everytime a Yahudim steps up to the plate/ chopping block, their out of here. I see this if it happened like that, as being the best game ever played. Homerun!

Thanks shalom82
Offline Richard  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, October 19, 2011 3:29:37 AM(UTC)
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shalom82 wrote:
YHWH turns Miriam leperous white....as if to say "You like being "white" so much and think it makes you superior....then try this on for size"


I had never considered that possibility, shalom82. It might certainly provoke one to more carefully consider any racially polarized views to which they may be clinging. Thank you for sharing that observation.

As for the Uzi character, why waste your time even remarking about someone once they have shown themselves to be stubborn, stiff-necked, and wise in their own eyes? Turn away, walk away, and leave him outside the camp where he belongs.

Richard
Offline masters_apprentice  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, March 17, 2015 10:42:04 PM(UTC)
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You folks sure post a lot of nothing. Can't you answer his question instead of posting nonsense?

There were about 225 Levitical Laws wiped out under the New Covenant for sin stonement. That leaves around 400 or a little less.

Offline InHisName  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, March 18, 2015 10:04:03 PM(UTC)
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MA,

There is not and never will be a New Covenant.

There are exactly 0, zero, none, not one, never were, never will be, zilch, commandments.

The answers to your questions about my answers are in the same place everyone who has ever addressed you, in the years you have been buzzing around here like and unwanted fly, has told you to go read listen and learn.
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Offline masters_apprentice  
#14 Posted : Thursday, March 19, 2015 9:31:40 PM(UTC)
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You people are creating your own rules and regulations and are bogged down in BS minutia. As I said before you folks should create your own religion so you can foist your little petty rules on people of how to read scripture.

When I said 225 LAws were wiped out did you understand what I was saying? If I use the term Jesus Christ do you know who I am talking about in context to a topic even though you want to "grammar nazi" the words over the intent?

Anyway...there have been MANY covenant changes and one more coming...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever.
Offline Bubsy  
#15 Posted : Friday, March 20, 2015 2:34:05 PM(UTC)
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Ah yes, the Renewed Covenant verses:

“Behold (hineh – look, listen, and pay close attention to what follows), days (yowmym – times) are coming (bow’ – will arrive and will return), prophetically declares (na’um – foretells, predicts, and reveals) Yahowah ( - – Yahowah), when (wa) I will cut (karat – I will create, completely establishing and totally stipulating, I will actually make by way of separation (qal stem affirms reality and perfect conjugation speaks of an act which is total, complete, and indivisible)) relationally with (‘eth – as an eternal symbol on behalf of) the household and family (beyth – the home) of Yisra’el (yisra’el – those who strive and contend with, engage, persist, and endure with, are set free and are empowered by God) and relationally with (wa ‘eth – as an eternal symbol on behalf of) the household and family (beyth – the home) of Yahuwdah (Yahuwdah – Yah is Abundantly Sufficient, Of Yah, From Yah, and Those Who Are Related to Yah) a renewing and restoring (chadash – a repairing and reaffirming) Family-Oriented Covenant Relationship (beryth – nurturing and engaged relational agreement established on the foundation of beyth – family and home, a mutually binding partnership promise, solemn oath, and active alliance, and a participatory pledge based upon a marriage vow which fosters and encourages).” (Yirmayahuw / Yahowah Uplifts / Jeremiah 31:31)

“It will not be exactly the same as (lo’ ka – it will not be identical to) the (ha) Covenant (beryth – familial relationship, marriage vow, binding agreement, and pledge) which relationally (‘asher) I cut (karat – created through separation) with (‘et) their fathers (‘abowtam) in the day, when (ba yowm) firmly grasping Me (hazaq – I repaired, renewed, and restored them, I established, sustained and supported them, I caused them to prevail and grow, as they were strengthened and encouraged by My power and authority) in their hand (ba yad – by them taking initiative, engaging, and reaching out), I led them out (yasa’ – I descended, extended Myself, and I served them by guiding them away) from (min) the realm (‘erets) of the crucible of Egypt (mitsraym – a metaphor for human religious, political, economic, and military oppression and divine judgment), which relationally (‘asher) they broke, disassociating themselves (parar – they violated and nullified, they frustrated, tore apart, and shattered, and they split away) from (‘eth) My Family-Oriented Covenant Relationship (beryth – My nurturing and engaged relational agreement established on the foundation of beyth – family and home, My mutually binding partnership promise, My solemn oath and active alliance, and My participatory pledge based upon a marriage vow which fosters and encourages), though (wa) I (‘anky) was married to them (ba ba’al hem – I was their husband), prophetically declares (na’um) Yahowah ( - - יהוה – Yahowah).” (Yirmayahuw / Yah Lifts Up / Jeremiah 31:32)

“Indeed (ky – surely and truly) with this (ha zo’th – in conjunction with these conditions and provisions the) Familial Covenant Relationship (beryth – reciprocal partnership, active alliance, and engaged agreement, mutually binding and nurturing promise, solemn oath and participatory pledge, based upon a marriage vow) which relationally (‘asher) I will cut (karat – I will create and establish through separation) with (‘eth – and alongside) the House (beyth – household and family) of Yisra’el (yisra’el – those who strive and contend with, who engage, persist, and endure with, who are set free and are empowered by God) after (‘ahar – following) those days (ha yowm hem – that time), prophetically declares (na’um – predicts and promises) Yahowah ( - ), I will actually give My Towrah, completely providing and producing My Teaching and Instruction (natan ‘eth Towrah – I will reliably bestow and totally devote My Direction and My Guidance as a gift, putting it (here the qal stem affirms that this will actually occur and the perfect conjugation tells us that the gift of the Towrah will be whole and complete, indivisible and uninterruptible throughout time)) within their inner nature (ba qereb – internally, inside their person, within their core and midst, becoming part of their psychological makeup, thoughts, and emotions).
And (wa) upon (‘al – as the Almighty concerning) their heart (leb – speaking of their source of life, and the seat of love, volition, feelings, attitude, and character), I will actually write it (katab – I will genuinely engrave and inscribe it (written in the qal relational stem, telling us that we can rely upon this occurring, and in the imperfect conjugation, affirming that it will produce ongoing results throughout time, with the first person singular prefix, saying that God, Himself, will be doing the writing, and with the third person feminine singular suffix, telling us that it is the Towrah, which is a feminine noun, which will be inscribed)).
And (wa) I shall be (hayah – I will always, reliably, and without interruption or exception be (qal stem perfect conjugation)) God (‘elohym) to and for them (la la), and (wa) they (hem), themselves, shall be (hayah – they will always and reliably exist, eternally receiving the complete benefits of (qal relational stem affirming the genuineness of this promise, and imperfect conjugation which tells us that there will be ongoing and unfolding assistance and advantages associated with being considered)) to and for Me as (la la) family (‘am).” (Yirmayahuw / Jeremiah 31:33)

“And (wa) they will not teach or learn (lo’ lamad – they will not be trained in nor indoctrinate, instruct or respond to) man’s (‘iysh – mankind’s and individual people’s) errant pronouncements, thoughts, thinking, or reasoning (ra’ – evil ways and improper principles, bad judgment, false pretenses, and regrettable communications) any longer (‘owd – ever again), or mankind’s (‘iysh) despondency and grief (‘ah – his tale of woe) claiming (‘amar – saying, boasting, and declaring) to actually know (da’at – to be acquainted with and be aware of the evidence regarding) Yahowah ( - ).
Because then, indeed (ky – rather surely and truthfully at that time), they all (kol) will actually know and recognize Me (yada’ ‘owty – they will be familiar with, be aware of, respect, revere, and acknowledge Me, and they will be known to Me), from (min) the smallest, youngest, and least significant (qatan) up to (‘ad) the biggest, oldest, and most influential (gadowl), prophetically declares (na’um – predicts and promises) Yahowah ( - ).
For indeed, then (ky), I will have forgiven (salah – will have pardoned and removed) their sin (‘awon – their guilt, liability, and consequence of perversity) and accordingly (wa la) their offenses against the standard (hata’th – their sinfulness and wrongdoing, their propensity and history of missing the way) will not (lo’) be remembered (zakar – recalled or mentioned) any longer (‘owd – now or ever again).” (Yirmayahuw / Jeremiah 31:34)
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly.
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Offline cgb2  
#16 Posted : Friday, March 20, 2015 8:41:58 PM(UTC)
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Not to mention if you read Jer 30 & 31 as a passage (dream/interpretation), there is NO WAY this has occured yet.
Offline InHisName  
#17 Posted : Friday, March 20, 2015 11:11:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: masters_apprentice Go to Quoted Post
You people are creating your own rules and regulations and are bogged down in BS minutia. As I said before you folks should create your own religion so you can foist your little petty rules on people of how to read scripture.


No, you misunderstand. It is not our religion that is the problem, we disdain all religion, we only seek the family of Yahowah which is only accessed through the Beryth Covenant... it is you who is mired in religion, we are without the petty rules of religion, without the twisted words of Paul, without the ridiculous concepts of men.

If you are unwilling to challenge your beliefs, by looking at our knowledge, then leave us... again.
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