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Offline Mailman Dan  
#1 Posted : Saturday, June 4, 2011 2:34:01 PM(UTC)
Mailman Dan
Joined: 6/2/2011(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: texas


The Bible says in Psalm 19, verse 7, “The law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul.”

If I approach an impenitent sinner and say, “Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins,” it will be foolishness and offensive to him. Foolishness because it won’t make sense. The Bible says that: “The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness” (1Cor. 1:18). And offensive because I’m insinuating he’s a sinner when he doesn’t think he is. As far as he’s concerned, there are a lot of people far worse than him. If I take the time to open up the divine law, the ten commandments, and show the sinner precisely what he’s done wrong, that he has offended God by violating His law, then when he becomes, as James says, “convinced of the law as a transgressor” (Jam. 2:9), the good news of the fine being paid for will not be foolishness, it will not be offensive, it will be “the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16).

Romans 3, verse 19: “Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God.” So one function of God’s law is to stop the mouth. To stop sinners justifying themselves.


Romans 3, verse 20: “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” So God’s law tells us what sin is. 1 John 3:4 says, “Sin is transgression of the law.” Romans 7, verse 7: “What shall we say then?” says Paul. “Is the law sin? God forbid! No, I had not known sin but by the law.” Paul says, “I didn’t know what sin was until the law told me.” In Galatians 3:24, “Wherefore, the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.” God’s law acts as a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus Christ that we might be justified through faith in His blood.

The 10 Commandments - God's Revelation in the Old Testament
The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. They were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'



God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (Jam. 4:6; 1Pet. 5:5). “Everyone who is proud of heart,” scripture says, “is an abomination to the Lord” (Prov. 16:5).
Jesus told us whom the gospel is for. He said, “The spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, the broken-hearted, the captives and the blind” (Luke 4:18). Now, they are spiritual statements. The poor in spirit (Mat. 5:3). The broken hearted are the contrite ones (Is. 57:15). The captives are those of whom Satan has taken captive to do his will (2Tim. 2:26); and the blind are those of whom the god of this world has blinded lest the light of the gospel should shine on them (2Cor. 4:4). Only the sick need a physician (Mark 2:17), and only those who are convinced of the disease will appreciate and appropriate a cure.



In Luke 10:25 we see a certain lawyer stood up and tempted Jesus. This is not an attorney, but a professing expert on God’s law. He stood up and he said to Jesus, “How can I get everlasting life?” Now, what did Jesus do? He gave him law. Why? Because he was proud, arrogant, self-righteous. Here we have a professing expert on God’s law tempting the Son of God. And the spirit of his question was, “And what do you think we’ve got to do to get everlasting life?” So Jesus gave him law. He said, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” He says, “Ah, you should love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; love your neighbor as yourself.” And Jesus said, “This do and you shall live.” And then the Scripture says, “But He, willing to justify Himself, said to Jesus, ‘Who’s my neighbor?’ ” The Living Bible brings out more clearly the effect of the law on the man. It said, “The man wanted to justify his lack of love for some kinds of people; so he asked, ‘Which neighbors?’ ”He didn’t mind Jews, but he didn’t like Samaritans. So Jesus then told him the story of what we call the “good Samaritan” who was not “good” at all. In loving his neighbor as much as he loved himself, he merely obeyed the basic requirements of God’s law. And the effect of the essence of the law, the spirituality of the law (of what the law demands in truth), was that that man’s mouth was stopped. See, he didn’t love his neighbor to that degree. The law was given to stop every mouth and leave the whole world guilty before God.

As Paul said, though many here only think of him as "holy"..

“The commandment is a lamp and the law is light” (Prov. 6:23). That’s why Paul said, “By the law is the knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). That’s why he said, “By the commandment sin became exceedingly sinful” (Rom. 7:13). In other words, the law showed him sin in its true light.


He now has light that his sin is primarily vertical: that he has “sinned against heaven” (Luke 15:21). That he has violated God’s law and that He has angered God and the wrath of God abides upon Him (John 3:36). He can now see that He is “weighed in the balance” of eternal justice and “found wanting” (Dan. 5:27). He now understands the need for a sacrifice. “Christ redeemed from the curse of the law being made a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13). “God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8). We broke the law; he paid the fine. It’s as simple as that.


Does not the scripture say, Unless there is sheeding of blood there is no forgiveness?

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.


What happens to those who have no blood covering for sin?

Dan
Offline Mailman Dan  
#2 Posted : Saturday, June 4, 2011 2:39:03 PM(UTC)
Mailman Dan
Joined: 6/2/2011(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: texas

By the way, I know some think Paul is not creditable, but most still read what he said based on his understanding of the Law. It is unwise to discredit him based on his view, since he was converted as someone who tried to follow the laws. Once killing the Christians, he died for the beliefs.

It's not really the question of wither or not a person agrees, the question is, "Is he right?" Is this the way to the path to becoming made right with God?


Dan
Offline Walt  
#3 Posted : Saturday, June 4, 2011 3:05:18 PM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
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Mailman Dan wrote:
By the way, I know some think Paul is not creditable, but most still read what he said based on his understanding of the Law. It is unwise to discredit him based on his view, since he was converted as someone who tried to follow the laws. Once killing the Christians, he died for the beliefs.

It's not really the question of wither or not a person agrees, the question is, "Is he right?" Is this the way to the path to becoming made right with God?


Dan


I view Paul as not credible because he is not speaking under the authority of Yahowah, while claiming to do so. So his view of the law is irrelevant. what matters is what Yahowah said through those He choose.
Try to prove that Paul spoke/wrote under God's authority like Moses or Daniel or any of the other prophets.
Offline JamesH  
#4 Posted : Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:59:45 PM(UTC)
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Hi Dan,
Walt brings up a very good question. Who gave Paul his authority? What verse?
I have two questions for you also.
1. Do you know when the name Jesus was first used?
2. Do you know what the Messiah’s name is?

Jim
Offline Mailman Dan  
#5 Posted : Saturday, June 4, 2011 6:45:28 PM(UTC)
Mailman Dan
Joined: 6/2/2011(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: texas

Very reasonable questions. I must study before I reply.

However, what authority are all the scriptures written in? As I understand it, some here have re-written parts of it.

Are the Laws certain? According to scriptures, they were written on the hearts of men, so they are without excuse on the day of judgement. No one can say "I didn't know it was wrong to kill, steal, ect.."


Dan
Offline Richard  
#6 Posted : Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:14:10 AM(UTC)
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Dan,

First, in your posts you cite writings attributed to Paul as though they are Scripture when, in fact, they are not. Only the Towrah, Prophets, and Psalms are Scripture. The documents associated with what the world calls The New Testament are completely unreliable, for they have been corrupted from the beginning. Many of the writings attributed to Paul could not have been written by him in the first place; others have been shown to have been tampered with over the years. Nor is Paul alone there. The eyewitness account of Yahowchanan (John) is known to have been altered hundreds of years after it was written. Because the documents associated with Yahowsha's life as the Lamb of Yahowah are suspect right out of the gate, they cannot be seriously considered as Scripture. Certainly some of them are worth reading, especially the eyewitness accounts of Mattinayahu (Matthew) and Yahowchanon and the first 17 chapters of Yahowsha's revelation to Yahowchanon. But only the Towrah, Prophets, and Psalms are Scripture.

Let me invite you to study Yada's document, An Introduction to God. In it you will find amazing evidence to back up what I just wrote to you. And not quick, single phrase evidence, like I have given to you: but rather, long, exhaustive, documented proofs.

Second, Dan, you have fallen for Paul's lie that the Towrah was "The Law" and that it is a source of soul-damning bondage. The reality is that Yahowah presented the nation of Yisra'el with the gift of His instructions for living immediately after setting them free from slavery. The Father is all about freedom, not bondage. Your religion of Christianity, in all its flavors, is dedicated to bondage, not freedom.

You, like many of us who participate in these forums, have been completely duped by Christianity, Dan. Yahowah brought you here for a reason, and that reason was definitely not to teach any of us the "truths" of Christianity. Your Maker brought you here to give you the opportunity to learn the accurate and verifiable facts about your religion and how He hates it. I implore you, therefore, to do the required studying. For it takes hours of dedicated, focused reading and thought to dislodge the thick pieces of wood which deception has nailed across the windows of our minds so that the Light of Yahowah's Truth might shine into our hearts.

PM me your email address and I will send you Yada's document. Specify whether you want it as a Microsoft Office Word document or as a PDF file that you can read with Adobe's Acrobat Reader.

Peace to you.

Richard
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Sunday, June 5, 2011 8:24:14 AM(UTC)
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Mailman Dan wrote:
The Bible says in Psalm 19, verse 7, “The law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul.”

If I approach an impenitent sinner and say, “Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins,” it will be foolishness and offensive to him. Foolishness because it won’t make sense. The Bible says that: “The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness” (1Cor. 1:18). And offensive because I’m insinuating he’s a sinner when he doesn’t think he is. As far as he’s concerned, there are a lot of people far worse than him. If I take the time to open up the divine law, the ten commandments, and show the sinner precisely what he’s done wrong, that he has offended God by violating His law, then when he becomes, as James says, “convinced of the law as a transgressor” (Jam. 2:9), the good news of the fine being paid for will not be foolishness, it will not be offensive, it will be “the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16).

Romans 3, verse 19: “Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God.” So one function of God’s law is to stop the mouth. To stop sinners justifying themselves.


Romans 3, verse 20: “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” So God’s law tells us what sin is. 1 John 3:4 says, “Sin is transgression of the law.” Romans 7, verse 7: “What shall we say then?” says Paul. “Is the law sin? God forbid! No, I had not known sin but by the law.” Paul says, “I didn’t know what sin was until the law told me.” In Galatians 3:24, “Wherefore, the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.” God’s law acts as a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus Christ that we might be justified through faith in His blood.

The 10 Commandments - God's Revelation in the Old Testament
The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. They were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'



God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (Jam. 4:6; 1Pet. 5:5). “Everyone who is proud of heart,” scripture says, “is an abomination to the Lord” (Prov. 16:5).
Jesus told us whom the gospel is for. He said, “The spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, the broken-hearted, the captives and the blind” (Luke 4:18). Now, they are spiritual statements. The poor in spirit (Mat. 5:3). The broken hearted are the contrite ones (Is. 57:15). The captives are those of whom Satan has taken captive to do his will (2Tim. 2:26); and the blind are those of whom the god of this world has blinded lest the light of the gospel should shine on them (2Cor. 4:4). Only the sick need a physician (Mark 2:17), and only those who are convinced of the disease will appreciate and appropriate a cure.



In Luke 10:25 we see a certain lawyer stood up and tempted Jesus. This is not an attorney, but a professing expert on God’s law. He stood up and he said to Jesus, “How can I get everlasting life?” Now, what did Jesus do? He gave him law. Why? Because he was proud, arrogant, self-righteous. Here we have a professing expert on God’s law tempting the Son of God. And the spirit of his question was, “And what do you think we’ve got to do to get everlasting life?” So Jesus gave him law. He said, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” He says, “Ah, you should love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; love your neighbor as yourself.” And Jesus said, “This do and you shall live.” And then the Scripture says, “But He, willing to justify Himself, said to Jesus, ‘Who’s my neighbor?’ ” The Living Bible brings out more clearly the effect of the law on the man. It said, “The man wanted to justify his lack of love for some kinds of people; so he asked, ‘Which neighbors?’ ”He didn’t mind Jews, but he didn’t like Samaritans. So Jesus then told him the story of what we call the “good Samaritan” who was not “good” at all. In loving his neighbor as much as he loved himself, he merely obeyed the basic requirements of God’s law. And the effect of the essence of the law, the spirituality of the law (of what the law demands in truth), was that that man’s mouth was stopped. See, he didn’t love his neighbor to that degree. The law was given to stop every mouth and leave the whole world guilty before God.

As Paul said, though many here only think of him as "holy"..

“The commandment is a lamp and the law is light” (Prov. 6:23). That’s why Paul said, “By the law is the knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). That’s why he said, “By the commandment sin became exceedingly sinful” (Rom. 7:13). In other words, the law showed him sin in its true light.


He now has light that his sin is primarily vertical: that he has “sinned against heaven” (Luke 15:21). That he has violated God’s law and that He has angered God and the wrath of God abides upon Him (John 3:36). He can now see that He is “weighed in the balance” of eternal justice and “found wanting” (Dan. 5:27). He now understands the need for a sacrifice. “Christ redeemed from the curse of the law being made a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13). “God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8). We broke the law; he paid the fine. It’s as simple as that.


Does not the scripture say, Unless there is sheeding of blood there is no forgiveness?

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.


What happens to those who have no blood covering for sin?

Dan


While I could reply to this, and quite easily, I am refusing to reply to any of your post, until you have taken the time to reply to the replies of your first post. It is pointless for us to engage, if you refuse to address any replies. Changing the subject will get us nowhere. I and several others have posted replies, citing Scripture and evidence to thread on the Sabbath, why not respond to those replies rather than trying to start a second thread. I do not wish to spend my time responding to thread after thread, and not getting a reply. I look forward to your reply on the first thread you started.

Dan wrote:
By the way, I know some think Paul is not creditable, but most still read what he said based on his understanding of the Law. It is unwise to discredit him based on his view, since he was converted as someone who tried to follow the laws. Once killing the Christians, he died for the beliefs.


Paul, by the way, was not trying to follow Yahowah's Torah. If you were to take the time to study the Jews of his time you would see that they did not follow the Torah, they instead followed their own oral law.

They believe that Moshe was given two laws, the Torah, the written law, and an oral law which was passed down orally through the elders unto the them the pharisees. This is the law that was codified in the Talmud by Maimonides. This was the law that Yahowsha condemned, this was the law that Paul kept.

And again, if Paul says X and Yahowsha says Y I am going with Yahowsha.

Also everything in the Greek text is suspect because it was not reliably passed down to us, largely because it was not viewed as Scripture by anyone, until it was codified as such by much later on. If you were to take the time to study the transmission of the Greek text to us, and the fact that there exists 300,000 documented variants between the oldest manuscripts and the current ones, you would understand as we do that they are far from reliable. So even if Paul's writings were of the status of Scripture, they are still unreliable.

Also you say
Dan wrote:
As for me, I take time to study, to make sure I know the Living God, who has shown Himself clearly, both in creation and through scriptures.


You don't even consider the possibility that we here have also invested time studying Scripture, some perhaps more in depth than yourself. Yada for example spends 12 hours a day 6 days a week for the last 8 years studying Scripture, amplifying it from the oldest manuscripts, using some of the best linguistic tools available. I spend on average 3 hours a day doing the same thing, others here spend varied amount of time doing the same thing. So we too take the time to study, so instead of just dismissing us, please read our responses, consider them, and if there is a flaw in our logic state it.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline In His Name  
#8 Posted : Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:15:32 AM(UTC)
In His Name
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James wrote:
While I could reply to this, and quite easily, I am refusing to reply to any of your post, until you have taken the time to reply to the replies of your first post. It is pointless for us to engage, if you refuse to address any replies. Changing the subject will get us nowhere. I and several others have posted replies, citing Scripture and evidence to thread on the Sabbath, why not respond to those replies rather than trying to start a second thread. I do not wish to spend my time responding to thread after thread, and not getting a reply. I look forward to your reply on the first thread you started.


DITTO

James wrote:
Paul, by the way, was not trying to follow Yahowah's Torah. If you were to take the time to study the Jews of his time you would see that they did not follow the Torah, they instead followed their own oral law.

They believe that Moshe was given two laws, the Torah, the written law, and an oral law which was passed down orally through the elders unto the them the pharisees. This is the law that was codified in the Talmud by Maimonides. This was the law that Yahowsha condemned, this was the law that Paul kept.

And again, if Paul says X and Yahowsha says Y I am going with Yahowsha.


Dan, part of the purpose of the TPP is to provide for us the history of the Jewish struggle. Repeatedly we are told of how they strayed from His Way and incorporated the ways of men. James has presented a direct corollary of what we are all trying to explain to you. Yahushua occused the Pharisees of following the traditions of man, rather than the commandments of YHWH. The christian church is doing the same, following the traditions of man. Show me christmas in your bible, or easter or lent or communion wafers. Ignore history and you will repeat it.

Matthew 15

1 Then there come to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Mailman Dan  
#9 Posted : Sunday, June 5, 2011 4:35:28 PM(UTC)
Mailman Dan
Joined: 6/2/2011(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: texas

Quote:
Walt brings up a very good question. Who gave Paul his authority? What verse?



I had to work on this one...


Quote:
And as he journeyed, it came to pass that he drew nigh unto Damascus: and suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven: and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: but rise, and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men that journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but beholding no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing; and they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and did neither eat nor drink.

– Acts 9:3–9


He it was confirmed by a witness.

Quote:
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

– Acts 9:13–19,


The same requirements for most scripture is the same. It was witnesses required as evidence of proof.

Oddly enough, for those that attack the scriptures when they re-write their own, come with less evidence of truth than these text.



The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) at Qumran in 1949 had significant effects in corroborating evidence for the Scriptures. The ancient texts, found hidden in pots in cliff-top caves by a monastic religious community, confirm the reliability of the Old Testament text. These texts, which were copied and studied by the Essenes, include one complete Old Testament book (Isaiah) and thousands of fragments, representing every Old Testament book except Esther. The manuscripts date from the third century B.C. to the first century A.D. and give the earliest window found so far into the texts of the Old Testament books and their predictive prophecies. The Qumran texts have become an important witness for the divine origin of the Bible, providing further evidence against the criticism of such crucial books as Daniel and Isaiah.

Dating the Manuscripts
Carbon-14 dating is a reliable form of scientific dating when applied to uncontaminated material several thousand years old. Results indicated an age of 1917 years with a 200-year (10 percent) variant. Paleography (ancient writing forms) and orthography (spelling) indicated that some manuscripts were inscribed before 100 B.C. Albright set the date of the complete Isaiah scroll to around 100 B.C.—"there can happily not be the slightest doubt in the world about the genuineness of the manuscript."

Archaeological Dating
Collaborative evidence for an early date came from archaeology. Pottery accompanying the manuscripts was late Hellenistic (c. 150– 3 B.C.) and Early Roman (c. 63 B.C. to A.D. 100). Coins found in the monastery ruins proved by their inscriptions to have been minted between 135 B.C. and A.D. 135. The weave and pattern of the cloth supported an early date. There is no reasonable doubt that the Qumran manuscripts came from the century before Christ and the first century A.D. Significance of the Dating.

Previous to the DSS, the earliest known manuscript of the Old Testament was the Masoretic Text (A.D. 900) and two others (dating about A.D. 1000) from which, for example, the King James version of the Old Testament derived its translation. Perhaps most would have considered the Masoretic text as a very late text and therefore questioned the reliability of the Old Testament wholesale. The Dead Sea Scrolls eclipse these texts by 1,000 years and provide little reason to question their reliability, and further, present only confidence for the text. The beauty of the Dead Sea Scrolls lies in the close match they have with the Masoretic text—demonstrable evidence of reliability and preservation of the authentic text through the centuries. So the discovery of the DSS provides evidence for the following:

1) Confirmation of the Hebrew Text
2) Support for the Masoretic Text
3) Support for the Greek translation of the Hebrew Text (the Septuagint).

Since the New Testament often quotes from the Greek Old Testament, the DSS furnish the reader with further confidence for the Masoretic texts in this area where it can be tested.




Even despite this, the problem remains the same. Unless there is shedding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin. Paul, as well as countles others in the text, lived and died that Christ was the blood payment.

If someone does not have the shedding of blood, as in the Torah, what is their fate?


Dan
Offline Richard  
#10 Posted : Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:59:42 PM(UTC)
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Acts 9:3-9 wrote:
And as he journeyed, it came to pass that he drew nigh unto Damascus: and suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven: and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: but rise, and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men that journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but beholding no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing; and they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and did neither eat nor drink.


Acts 9:13-19 wrote:
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.


But, Dan, where is your proof that the book of Acts is divinely inspired? Lucas, the recognized author, does not enter the narrative until much later in the book. Everything he reports prior to his becoming an actual eyewitness he received second-hand, almost certainly from Paul himself. He had only Paul's word that the conversion took place and Ananias (if he existed at all) experienced and did and said what was reported to the historian, Lucas.

So, again, you are using as evidence that which is no evidence at all. Paul claims that Yahowsha chose to completely ignore and dismiss those who had walked with Him on the earth, to go behind their backs and secretly select a blasphemous murderer to be His number one man. Paul lied about that, for neither my Father nor His Son would ever behave so unfaithfully to their friends.

You really do need to stop parading your ignorance as you're doing. I counsel you to read, study, and reason.

Richard
Offline Steve in PA  
#11 Posted : Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:27:19 PM(UTC)
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Mailman Dan wrote:
Even despite this, the problem remains the same. Unless there is shedding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin. Paul, as well as countles others in the text, lived and died that Christ was the blood payment.

If someone does not have the shedding of blood, as in the Torah, what is their fate?


Dan


Stop ...Oh yes, wait a minute Mr. Postman.

Hi Dan,
I can not say for sure what you may be insinuating with this comment but I read a little more into as in, "between the lines".
You made a comment the other day about being hated on and how you got this mean cult reaction to your posts...
Weather you see it this way or not... you did come in here swinging and you received a defensive reaction from a few people. I don't hate you... I am not angry with you although I find some of your comments insulting.
To answer your question above... death.
I can not speak for everyone here but I doubt any would disagree with me in the following...
Apart from the work of the Messiah Yahushua ( you're still calling Him Jesus, even though that is not His name) there is no salvation. He came in the Name of the Father YaHuWaH and He is the deliverer of His Salvation. In fact, that is exactly what His Name means.
No one here is thinking that they are going to follow the law, Torah, instructions for living to a "T" and somehow earn salvation in and of themselves.
Also, no one here is going to say that His law, Torah, instructions for living is a curse and done away with.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. Footnote: 1The Law and the Prophets is a term used for the pre-Messianic Scriptures.

Mat 5:18 "For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17.

Mat 5:19 "Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

Paul ...? I don't follow Paul. His blood does nothing for me. I will say this though... I'll bet you a dollar his name is not on one of the foundations of His City.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.






Offline In His Name  
#12 Posted : Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:39:41 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
Walt brings up a very good question. Who gave Paul his authority? What verse?

I had to work on this one...
– Acts 9:3–9
He it was confirmed by a witness.
– Acts 9:13–19,
The same requirements for most scripture is the same. It was witnesses required as evidence of proof.

Mosaic Law required at least two witnesses to establish a claim of wrong doing. All you have is a second hand story about a man who allegedly was involved with half of the event; and the mention, but no identification or testimony of two first hand witnesses to the first half of the event. Not even good enough for our liberal courts. But we aren’t establishing a crime, we are judging the establishment of Scripture.
To prove Scripture requires:
1-evidence of 100% accurate future prophesy.
2-prophesy can not contradict established prophecy:

Excerpt from Jesus’ Words Only:
Chapter Three: Must We Apply The Bible's Tests For a True Prophet to Paul?
Test for Valid Prophets
Only a true prophet from God can add text to the Bible. (Deut. 18:15.) The Bible itself lays out the tests for such authorized additions to the Bible. These tests are spelled out in Deuteronomy chs. 4, 12, 13 & 18. A key test is that no prophet could be legitimate who tried to "diminish" (subtract) any command previously given. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32 (quoted in inset).) This was true even if they had "sign and wonders that came to pass." (Deut.13:1-5.) This is reiterated in Isaiah 8:20

.
Oddly enough, for those that attack the scriptures when they re-write their own, come with less evidence of truth than these text.

You have repeated this sentiment a couple of times now. What has been presented to you that is a false rewrite? Are you trying to say that Yada Yahweh is a re-write of Scripture? If so perhaps you should look at what was done in YY a little more closely. Re-translate yes, re-write no. YY removes many of the translation errors of current texts. Don’t think there are errors? Most noticeably, it restores YHWH and Yahushua’s names to the TPP text. How can you glorify and promote and adore His name if you don’t even know what it is. That is just a start, you can find the rest yourself.

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls….

When I mentioned the DSS in your first thread, I did so in a broad context. We know Yahushua condoned the TPP because he read and taught from them. In the DSS we have a copy of the TPP that was contemporary to Yahushua. Circle closed. I wasn’t commenting on translations.

Even despite this, the problem remains the same. Unless there is shedding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin. Paul, as well as countles others in the text, lived and died that Christ was the blood payment.

Sorry, did someone argue this point? ...And Paul said lots of things, whether he was a false prophet or a horrible writer I don’t know, but it seems to me that all his words do is confuse, so IHMO he is best left alone

If someone does not have the shedding of blood, as in the Torah, what is their fate?

So are you trying to say everyone that died before 33 C.E. is in Hell? (assuming you only know of two options)

“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline James  
#13 Posted : Monday, June 6, 2011 3:02:44 AM(UTC)
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Dan wrote:
The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) at Qumran in 1949 had significant effects in corroborating evidence for the Scriptures. The ancient texts, found hidden in pots in cliff-top caves by a monastic religious community, confirm the reliability of the Old Testament text. These texts, which were copied and studied by the Essenes, include one complete Old Testament book (Isaiah) and thousands of fragments, representing every Old Testament book except Esther. The manuscripts date from the third century B.C. to the first century A.D. and give the earliest window found so far into the texts of the Old Testament books and their predictive prophecies. The Qumran texts have become an important witness for the divine origin of the Bible, providing further evidence against the criticism of such crucial books as Daniel and Isaiah.

Dating the Manuscripts
Carbon-14 dating is a reliable form of scientific dating when applied to uncontaminated material several thousand years old. Results indicated an age of 1917 years with a 200-year (10 percent) variant. Paleography (ancient writing forms) and orthography (spelling) indicated that some manuscripts were inscribed before 100 B.C. Albright set the date of the complete Isaiah scroll to around 100 B.C.—"there can happily not be the slightest doubt in the world about the genuineness of the manuscript."

Archaeological Dating
Collaborative evidence for an early date came from archaeology. Pottery accompanying the manuscripts was late Hellenistic (c. 150– 3 B.C.) and Early Roman (c. 63 B.C. to A.D. 100). Coins found in the monastery ruins proved by their inscriptions to have been minted between 135 B.C. and A.D. 135. The weave and pattern of the cloth supported an early date. There is no reasonable doubt that the Qumran manuscripts came from the century before Christ and the first century A.D. Significance of the Dating.

Previous to the DSS, the earliest known manuscript of the Old Testament was the Masoretic Text (A.D. 900) and two others (dating about A.D. 1000) from which, for example, the King James version of the Old Testament derived its translation. Perhaps most would have considered the Masoretic text as a very late text and therefore questioned the reliability of the Old Testament wholesale. The Dead Sea Scrolls eclipse these texts by 1,000 years and provide little reason to question their reliability, and further, present only confidence for the text. The beauty of the Dead Sea Scrolls lies in the close match they have with the Masoretic text—demonstrable evidence of reliability and preservation of the authentic text through the centuries. So the discovery of the DSS provides evidence for the following:

1) Confirmation of the Hebrew Text
2) Support for the Masoretic Text
3) Support for the Greek translation of the Hebrew Text (the Septuagint).

Since the New Testament often quotes from the Greek Old Testament, the DSS furnish the reader with further confidence for the Masoretic texts in this area where it can be tested.


I am huge proponent of using the DSS, as they are a much older, much more reliable copy of Scripture. Having studied it, and read a bout them for many years now, I can say that the assessment presented here is flawed, at least in it's conclusions.

Everything before this is accurate:

Quote:
So the discovery of the DSS provides evidence for the following:

1) Confirmation of the Hebrew Text
2) Support for the Masoretic Text
3) Support for the Greek translation of the Hebrew Text (the Septuagint).
p


Conclusion 1 is accurate.
Conclusion 2 is somewhat accurate.

As a rough rule of thumb, I have found that the text of the oldest manuscripts (those found in Qumran dating from the first, second, and third centuries BCE and first century CE) differs from that found in the Masoretic which serves as the basis of our translations (the oldest reasonably complete Masoretic Text (from masoret, which means “to be in compliance”) dates to the 11th century CE) by one word in five—especially considering the wide variety of choices which result from the rabbinic vocalization process. In places where the manuscripts agree, and where the “niquwd – dot pointing” system of diacritical signs does not alter the nature of the words themselves, another one word in five is errantly translated. Yet another one word in five is so inadequately represented in modern languages, the full meaning is lost. In other words, only fifty percent of what you read in the “Old Testament” of an English “Bible” is reliable.
By way of proof, you may be surprised to learn that God told us His name—Yahowah—exactly 7,000 times in His Covenant Scriptures. That is an average of seven times per page when His message is formatted using today’s publishing guidelines. And yet, on each occurrence, religious men elected to copyedit the Author, replacing His name with a title of their own choosing—one associated with Lord Ba’al, better known as Satan, all seven-thousand times.

Conclusion three is an errant in that one does not yield the other. Also Septuagint copies (with fragments dating from the 2nd-century BCE to the 5th-century CE) differed so wildly that in the 3rd-century CE, Origen, one of the few early theologians to study Hebrew, was compelled to dedicate most of his life to resolving the overwhelming conflicts between them, creating his Hexapla (which unfortunately has been lost to time).

And you are claiming that we rewrote Scripture, yet you have not shown us any proof that the translations we have presented are inaccurate. We specifically add a transliteration of the root of each Hebrew word so that anyone can check it against the numerous lexicons and dictionaries available. The fact of the matter is that English translations that are available are horrible for many reasons.
They are based on errant text, the Masoretic or the Nestle-Aland in most cases both of which can be demonstrated to differ from the oldest manuscripts.
Based on there own admission they seek to differ as little as possible from the KJV, because the wording of the KJV has become so familiar, and bible publishers are interested in profit, and profit is a function of familiarity.
Just to list a few.

So we choose not to take the word of religious men who translated the Scriptures, but to break down the original language, and study it for our selves, and attempted to produce an amplified (because no language can translate accurately from one language to another word for word) and more accurate translation.

And I point out you have still not made a reply to any of the evidence presented to you, instead you have elected to build straw man arguments, and tear them down. Why don't you take the time to actually see where we are coming from, and with an open mind view the evidence, as opposed to thinking we are wrong and you are right, and coming here and setting us straight. FYI you attempt at evangelism is retarded, because if you are not going to take the time to reply to those you are trying to reach, and instead look down on them with an air of superiority, you are not going to get anywhere. Also what you don't seem to realize is that you are not the first to come here and present the exact same information and same points of view, we are not ignorant, we have heard your views a number of times, and we have considered them in the light of evidence, Scripture and reason, and decided to reject them. This by the way is the reason many here were initially skeptical of you, we have seen many people come in here with the same ideas, who had no interest in dialogging, they just wanted to set us straight and preach their message. Sadly it is starting to look like you are the same, I had hoped you would dialog, but you have continuously refused to answer, and instead are interested in preaching religion. If that is all you have some here for, then you might as well leave, you are not going to convince anyone here with your methods.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Mailman Dan  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, June 7, 2011 6:06:27 AM(UTC)
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You guys will have to overlook the time it takes me to respond. There are many different questions being asked, or arguements being made, and some things are just misunderstandings because we are not face to face. I'm still trying to grasp where some people are coming from, mostly because of terms some use and others do not. I do take time and look at text and translations on things I believe are taken out of context, or perhaps *I* have taken out of context. I do believe I leave room for erros are my part, but not everyone does that, and like most, I am set in stone on some issue that have do to with being made right with God.


Quote:
So are you trying to say everyone that died before 33 C.E. is in Hell? (assuming you only know of two options)




I do not. Abram and David had their faith counted to them as Righteousness. They made blood offering, but only as a following to say they were followers of Gods plan, knowing that the Messiah would come. It was the Messiah that made the perfect ofeering, as created beings were never enough. That theology also draws the conclusion that the Messiah was God, and part of the God head, as creations, such as myself, are flawed with sin. Only God is not.


Quote:
But, Dan, where is your proof that the book of Acts is divinely inspired?



Who wrote the Torah? Where is the evidence of the same? Are not the instructions tried and proved?

Paul did not say everything he wrote was from God. He carefully said things like "I, not the Lord, say" when giving advice to brothers. Other examples of theology must be tested. Paul clearly had training in the Torah, and connected it to the blood offering of the Messiah.

Paul declared the gospel to be Christ, the Messiah, making payment of blood as a sin offering. From what I understand, most people here belive that..correct?


Dan
Offline James  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, June 7, 2011 7:21:52 AM(UTC)
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Dan wrote:
Who wrote the Torah? Where is the evidence of the same? Are not the instructions tried and proved?


The Torah was scribed by Moshe and dictated by Yahowah. In it Yahowah proves it's divine inspiration over and over again through Prophesy. Prophesy that can be shown to have been fulfilled exactly as it was prophesied to be. In it Yahowah also gave us a way to know rather something claimed to be from Him was. This test of a false message and messenger consists of 6 parts.

"Surely the person who proclaims a message on behalf of a deity (naby’ – prophet, speaker, and spokesperson) who oversteps their bounds (zyd – acts presumptuously with an inflated sense of self-worth, demonstrating self-reliance while taking liberties, who arrogantly pretends to know, who insults others and is disrespectful, displaying pride in the pursuit of personal recognition and acclaim while despising others, who rebels against the rules and is prone to rage, who seethes with anger and is often furious, overbearing, rude, and conceited) to speak (dabar – communicate) words (dabar) in My name (shem – renown and reputation) which I have not instructed nor directed him (lo’ tsavah huw’ – I have not appointed, constituted, decreed, or commanded (i.e., that which is in conflict with God’s Word)) to speak (dabar), and who speaks (dabar) in the name (shem) of other (‘aher – different) gods (‘elohym), indeed then that prophet (naby’ – person who proclaims a message on behalf of that false deity) is destructive and deadly (muwt – is absent of life and is associated with death)."

"And if you ask in your heart, ‘How shall we know (yada’ – possess the information required to distinguish, discriminate, understand and acknowledge) if the words (dabar) which he speaks are not Yahowah's(Yahowha's)?’ If that statement (dabar) which is spoken (dabar) by the one who proclaims the message (naby’ – prophet) in Yahowah's (Yahowah's) name (shem – reputation and renown) does not exist (hayah – did not happen (is not accurate historically)), and does not come to be (bow’ – and arrive upon the scene (is not accurate prophetically)), the message (dabar) which he has spoken (dabar) is not (lo’) Yahowah's(Yahowah's). He has spoken in arrogance and presumptuousness (zadown – imprudently insulting contemptuous and shameless speech, taking great liberty while overstepping all due bounds, in disobedience to the law and judge). His message (dabar) is not prophetic (naby’ – is not a message from God). Stir up trouble for and quarrel with him." (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)

1)Is the person a naby’: someone who claims to speak on behalf of god? This is a screening codicil. If a person admits that they are speaking for themselves, then they are excluded from this test. This evaluation therefore does not apply to Obama but would apply to Osama.

2)Is the person zyd: someone who oversteps their bounds, acting presumptuously with an inflated sense of self-worth, demonstrating self-reliance while taking liberties, someone who arrogantly pretends to know, who insults others and is disrespectful, displaying pride in the pursuit of personal recognition and acclaim while demeaning competitors, someone who rebels against the rule of law and is prone to anger, someone who seethes with frustration and is often furious, overbearing, rude, or conceited?

3)Does the person dabar dabar ba shem: openly and publicly preach to others, communicating their message in the name of God? As was the case with the first codicil, this is also a screening test. If the person has an insignificantly small audience, if their preaching is done in private, if their influence is limited in time and place, then there would be no reason to make this assessment. Such an individual would be disqualified.

4)Is the person’s message ‘lo tsavah: inconsistent with what God has instructed and directed, does their message conflict with what God appointed, constituted, and decreed, does it vary from His Commandments?

5)Does the person dabar ba shem ‘aher ‘elohym: speak in the name of gods other than Yahowah?

6)Does the person hayah: accurately convey what is happening and what has happened in the past, and do their predictions of the future bow’: materialize and come to exist as they have stated them?

By this test the Torah is of Yahowah, Acts however does not claim to be Scripture or the Word of God, it is admittedly an account of the acts of the apostles, and nowhere does it claim to be speaking for God, therefore based on the first part of this test, Acts is not Scripture.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Daniel  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, June 7, 2011 9:36:40 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:
Acts however does not claim to be Scripture or the Word of God, it is admittedly an account of the acts of the apostles, and nowhere does it claim to be speaking for God, therefore based on the first part of this test, Acts is not Scripture.


Well said.

The Acts document does contain lots of interesting material, tho'!
Nehemiah wrote:
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Offline Matthew  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, June 7, 2011 1:45:50 PM(UTC)
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James wrote:
By this test the Torah is of Yahowah, Acts however does not claim to be Scripture or the Word of God, it is admittedly an account of the acts of the apostles, and nowhere does it claim to be speaking for God, therefore based on the first part of this test, Acts is not Scripture.


I'm just curious, if Acts is unreliable then what reliable evidence should be used now in regards to the fulfilment of Shavuot (Pentecost)?
Offline James  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, June 8, 2011 2:40:45 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
I'm just curious, if Acts is unreliable then what reliable evidence should be used now in regards to the fulfilment of Shavuot (Pentecost)?


Just because it is not Scripture doesn't mean it is isn't useful as historical accounting, which is what it presents itself as. Like any history book it is subject to error. The author was not present at much of what occurred, so it is at best second hand, and possibly third hand. So i view it as a history book, useful and informative, but not the Word of God.

Also I don't really need evidence that Shabuwah was fulfilled, Yahowah told us he would fulfill it, I trust Him to do so.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Daniel  
#19 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 3:45:49 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
I'm just curious, if Acts is unreliable then what reliable evidence should be used now in regards to the fulfilment of Shavuot (Pentecost)?


I have read military history books that presented a picture of the events that occurred during a campaign that was VERY different from my original understanding of those events. These well researched documents were, in fact, much "more correct" than my own perception of what happened, EVEN THOUGH I WAS THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED!!!!

The Acts of The Followers of The Way are likely to be pretty accurately recorded, if for no other reason than the LACK of a minority report that says "that is not the what happened".
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Offline Yah Tselem  
#20 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 3:55:13 AM(UTC)
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Mathhew Wrote
Quote:
I'm just curious, if Acts is unreliable then what reliable evidence should be used now in regards to the fulfilment of Shavuot (Pentecost)?


I didn't see where anyone said it was unreliable, but rather that it is not scripture... not inspired by Yah.. Yah wasn't telling them what to write, but rather it was their commentary/opinions. Much of Acts is quotes of scripture, such as quoting Psalms, those parts are scriptural and the rest is commentary/opinions, not because we think so, but because the first century writers themselves never intended their writings to be considered scripture. Now, I do think that some of the first century writings were inspired, such as what John wrote at Pergamos, but mostly they are not, nor do they claim to be.

I have had people tell me in my journey that I should spend my time in the NT and that the OT was outdated and no longer relevant, so don't even bother with it. As a kid, naturally I believed that and I think that is still the mindset of many.. Now I know better. The first century writers knew they weren't writing scripture, and they often quoted scripture because they wanted us to look there... because otherwise we would be building a house with the foundation on the top, and it would just collapse on itself.

As for Acts in regards to Shabuwa, the meat of what was written are the parts where scripture is quoted, so I don't see a problem using Acts to talk about Shabuwa, such as Yada did in the Shabuwa chapter, because a lot of it is focused on scripture, such as Dawid.. but one has to be careful, lest they fall into the christian mindset that pentecost is only to commemorate the "holy" spirit being poured out on the "church" that first pentecost... which means they lose the significance of Shabuwa being for all of us who have been adopted into Yah's family and that it should be observed every year, rather than just the one time.
Offline VinceB.  
#21 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 7:49:16 AM(UTC)
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Yah Tselem wrote:
Mathhew Wrote


I didn't see where anyone said it was unreliable, but rather that it is not scripture... not inspired by Yah.. Yah wasn't telling them what to write, but rather it was their commentary/opinions. Much of Acts is quotes of scripture, such as quoting Psalms, those parts are scriptural and the rest is commentary/opinions, not because we think so, but because the first century writers themselves never intended their writings to be considered scripture. Now, I do think that some of the first century writings were inspired, such as what John wrote at Pergamos, but mostly they are not, nor do they claim to be.

I have had people tell me in my journey that I should spend my time in the NT and that the OT was outdated and no longer relevant, so don't even bother with it. As a kid, naturally I believed that and I think that is still the mindset of many.. Now I know better. The first century writers knew they weren't writing scripture, and they often quoted scripture because they wanted us to look there... because otherwise we would be building a house with the foundation on the top, and it would just collapse on itself.

As for Acts in regards to Shabuwa, the meat of what was written are the parts where scripture is quoted, so I don't see a problem using Acts to talk about Shabuwa, such as Yada did in the Shabuwa chapter, because a lot of it is focused on scripture, such as Dawid.. but one has to be careful, lest they fall into the christian mindset that pentecost is only to commemorate the "holy" spirit being poured out on the "church" that first pentecost... which means they lose the significance of Shabuwa being for all of us who have been adopted into Yah's family and that it should be observed every year, rather than just the one time.


I Agree; and for Christians coming out of all things Paul to embrace Yahowah - the next big hurdle they'll have to come to terms with is realizing that the N.T. is valuable for its historical value and is not Yah's Word anymore than what Paul had to say was Yah's Word - and is because Yah makes it clear His' Word, the Torah is complete; and we're not to add or take away from any of what Yah said...
HWHY
Offline Mailman Dan  
#22 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 12:54:14 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
and is because Yah makes it clear His' Word, the Torah is complete; and we're not to add or take away from any of what Yah said...


You do understand, that Christians do believe that Christ was God, and did fulfill the payment for sin in blood, as required by the Torah, correct?

As you might have noticed, no one answered the question.. According to the Torah, unless there is sheeding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin. James and I had a short email conversation about this. No one has kept the law, by his own admission, and mine, no one has kept the law. Prophecy fortold of the Messiah to come, and you can not remove that from the scriptures, only deny that they were fulfill in the Christ, which would mean you still have no blood covering.

Paul knew this well, even quoting the Torah, making his case for the Christ.

Galatians 3:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[a]
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[b]), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Core of the Christain faith which accepts the Torah as well. The only difference between us is one has the blood covering required by the law.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if one accepts the NT or not, it only matters if it's right. Otherwise, there is no way to be made "right" with God. No evidence of forgiveness without it has every been shown in the scriptures. I understand some here have been though a passover, but does one understand the need for blood?


BTW James.. your mom is a nice person.. Had a chat with her and Heather the other day.. They told me not to rattle your cage too much..lol

Dan


Offline VinceB.  
#23 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 2:21:30 PM(UTC)
VinceB.
Joined: 12/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 228

Mailman Dan wrote:
You do understand, that Christians do believe that Christ was God, and did fulfill the payment for sin in blood, as required by the Torah, correct?

As you might have noticed, no one answered the question.. According to the Torah, unless there is sheeding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin. James and I had a short email conversation about this. No one has kept the law, by his own admission, and mine, no one has kept the law. Prophecy fortold of the Messiah to come, and you can not remove that from the scriptures, only deny that they were fulfill in the Christ, which would mean you still have no blood covering.

Paul knew this well, even quoting the Torah, making his case for the Christ.

Galatians 3:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[a]
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Core of the Christain faith which accepts the Torah as well. The only difference between us is one has the blood covering required by the law.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if one accepts the NT or not, it only matters if it's right. Otherwise, there is no way to be made "right" with God. No evidence of forgiveness without it has every been shown in the scriptures. I understand some here have been though a passover, but does one understand the need for blood?


BTW James.. your mom is a nice person.. Had a chat with her and Heather the other day.. They told me not to rattle your cage too much..lol

Dan



Hey Dan,

I will answer your questions (but will have to use my wife's computer since she's got the word program and the other bells and whistles since her's is new) as best as I can; and would also highly recommend you read Questioning Paul since that's where I started, and once I saw how absolutely different from Yahowah's stuff Paul's stuff was - I had no choice but to dump Paul and embrace Yahowah.

Having come out of Christianity starting around April of last year after a life long journey through first RCC religious indoctrination followed by Evangelical Christianity with the whole speaking in tongues thing, as well as a little of Baptist this and a little of Wesleyan [b]that
, and a little bit of this and that from all various religious examples and experiences - that's the nature of what Paul said and taugh and what Christians practice, with Christians liberated by Jesus enabling them to then pick and choose what they like or don't in much the same way folks might do at a buffet that all gets conveniently covered under the blood of Paul's gospel of grace without any rhyme or reason since the Torah's only used by Paul to promote Paul's stuff at the expense of Yah's stuff.

BUT:

Just to make it clear at the start, I do appreciate the fact that things that are different are not the same.
HWHY
Offline VinceB.  
#24 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 3:13:13 PM(UTC)
VinceB.
Joined: 12/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 228

I should have included 2010 - April of 2010 began my journey out of the religion of christianity into a relationship with Yahowah.
HWHY
Offline Richard  
#25 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 4:54:59 PM(UTC)
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Hi, Dan.

I would suspect that there are none of us here who, coming out of Christianity, are not at least familiar with the basic doctrines of that religion. Some of us were quite well-versed in them, were teachers, avid Bible students, etc. It is not that we do not understand what Paul wrote. On the contrary, we understand all too well what he wrote, and that is why we oppose him. Even though the evidence is, to me, conclusive that Paul did not write the letter to the Galatians which is attributed to him, even without that document the man's writings oppose the Towrah and misquote Scripture. Moreover, until you're willing to recognize that every one of your Bible translations is hideously flawed, you will be unlikely to accept the things being taught and discussed here by those of us who have proven to ourselves that what Yada and the others are telling us is the truth.

Debate is pointless, in my experience. The way I see it, someone hears the truth and then either accepts it or rejects it. It might take them some time - hopefully, it will - before they reach their decision, time spent performing sincere and diligent research. But to spend a lot of time doing the he said-she said shuffle is a tremendous waste of time. I will not engage in it.

Richard
Offline bigritchie  
#26 Posted : Thursday, June 9, 2011 6:21:01 PM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

Mailman Dan wrote:
You do understand, that Christians do believe that Christ was God, and did fulfill the payment for sin in blood, as required by the Torah, correct?

As you might have noticed, no one answered the question.. According to the Torah, unless there is sheeding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin. James and I had a short email conversation about this. No one has kept the law, by his own admission, and mine, no one has kept the law. Prophecy fortold of the Messiah to come, and you can not remove that from the scriptures, only deny that they were fulfill in the Christ, which would mean you still have no blood covering.

Paul knew this well, even quoting the Torah, making his case for the Christ.

Galatians 3:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[a]
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Core of the Christain faith which accepts the Torah as well. The only difference between us is one has the blood covering required by the law.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if one accepts the NT or not, it only matters if it's right. Otherwise, there is no way to be made "right" with God. No evidence of forgiveness without it has every been shown in the scriptures. I understand some here have been though a passover, but does one understand the need for blood?


BTW James.. your mom is a nice person.. Had a chat with her and Heather the other day.. They told me not to rattle your cage too much..lol

Dan




You do understand, that Christians do believe that Christ was God, and did fulfill the payment for sin in blood, as required by the Torah, correct?

#1 "Christ" is not "God" (Neither is Julius Caesar!)

#2 All sin does not "require blood payment" You could bring flour, or other things for various offerings!

#3 The Tanakh is FULL of examples where animal sacrifice is not required for forgiveness of sin! (believe it or not the Creator does not need for us to kill something to forgive us!)


As you might have noticed, no one answered the question.. According to the Torah, unless there is sheeding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin.

This is NOT true, the Torah or Tanakh does not say that ANYWHERE, your Christian book of HEBREWS which was written by a unknown author and has ALWAYS been disputed says that! Hebrews is full of errors!


James and I had a short email conversation about this. No one has kept the law, by his own admission, and mine, no one has kept the law.

The Torah never expected you to keep it 100% and never screw up! hence the provisions it for when you did screw up! In fact both Solomon and John make it clear that there are righteous men (regardless of what the idiot of Tarsus says) and that righteous men still on occasion sin!

Prophecy fortold of the Messiah to come, and you can not remove that from the scriptures, only deny that they were fulfill in the Christ, which would mean you still have no blood covering.

[b] PASSOVER IS NOT A SIN SACRIFICE!


Paul knew this well, even quoting the Torah, making his case for the Christ.

Galatians 3:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[a]
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[b]), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians is utter trash and is full of errors, lies, Paul undermining the 12, and Paul butchering the Torah!

Core of the Christain faith which accepts the Torah as well.

Uh, no, the pagan christian faith does NOT accept Torah, they reject it in favor of the writings of the Goy of Tarsus!

The only difference between us is one has the blood covering required by the law.

No the law requires you to walk in obedience with YHWH, and if you transgress it, to get up, dust yourself off, and walk the path again! The law never one time says "You have sinned one time, now you will be eternally tortured"

Honestly, it doesn't matter if one accepts the NT or not,

You are actually right here even though this is not what you were getting at! The NT is NOT needed, Jesus himself said he did not come for the righteous but for those who needed a doctor! Psalms tells us the Torah is perfect converting the soul!

it only matters if it's right. Otherwise, there is no way to be made "right" with God.

This is nonsense, you need to go actually read the Tanakh! The entire christian religion is based upon its members being lazy and not reading their own Bibles!

No evidence of forgiveness without it has every been shown in the scriptures.

Once again this is utter nonsense.


BTW James.. your mom is a nice person.. Had a chat with her and Heather the other day.. They told me not to rattle your cage too much..lol

I am sure James Mom is a wonderful person :-)

Offline Daniel  
#27 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 3:49:02 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

Mailman Dan wrote:
Paul knew this well, even quoting the Torah, making his case for the Christ.

Hi Dan,

Please refrain from referring to The Messiah as "Christ".

That is like referring to the President of the United States as The American Fuhrer.

"Christ" is a pagan term for "anointed one", which is similar to, but not the same as MessiYah.

There are plenty of freely available resources to confirm these word origins.

Please avail yourself to them.

Daniel "Word-Study" Nafe.
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline VinceB.  
#28 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 7:24:45 AM(UTC)
VinceB.
Joined: 12/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 228

Mailman Dan wrote:
You do understand, that Christians do believe that Christ was God, and did fulfill the payment for sin in blood, as required by the Torah, correct?

As you might have noticed, no one answered the question.. According to the Torah, unless there is sheeding of blood, there is no fogiveness of sin. James and I had a short email conversation about this. No one has kept the law, by his own admission, and mine, no one has kept the law. Prophecy fortold of the Messiah to come, and you can not remove that from the scriptures, only deny that they were fulfill in the Christ, which would mean you still have no blood covering.

Paul knew this well, even quoting the Torah, making his case for the Christ.

Galatians 3:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[a]
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[b]), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Core of the Christain faith which accepts the Torah as well. The only difference between us is one has the blood covering required by the law.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if one accepts the NT or not, it only matters if it's right. Otherwise, there is no way to be made "right" with God. No evidence of forgiveness without it has every been shown in the scriptures. I understand some here have been though a passover, but does one understand the need for blood?


BTW James.. your mom is a nice person.. Had a chat with her and Heather the other day.. They told me not to rattle your cage too much..lol

Dan



After prayerfully thinking about it after posting, everyone here's right Dan, until you're willing to look at the facts already given to you, there's nothing anyone says that's going to change your mind. I hate all things related to christianity because of what it does to people; same is true of Islam and all man made religions that keep people from seeing God as He's revealed Himself to us.

There's some 1 billion christians, and between islam and christianity - the two religions are the fastest growing religions in the world, but being popular isn't going to save anyone - and you'd have to deductive reason to see why I say that: and is for the same reason Yahowsha' was extremely popular at the beginning of His 3 years of ministry and extremely unpopular at the end.

I pray you'll come out of Babylon just as I and others have and are doing.
HWHY
Offline Walt  
#29 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 10:24:51 AM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

Dan, To add to what others have said here I will quote Yahowsha' from your christian bible

Quote:
"Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition


That last one is revealing - that holding to religious traditions invalidates Yahowah's Word
Here it is in a corrected amplified rendering

Quote:
invalidating and rendering useless, robbing of force, putting out of action and disregarding, annulling and voiding, declaring inoperable and rejecting, cancelling and depriving the authority of the word and saying, message and statement, declaration and thought, instruction and teaching, decree, mandate and matter of God* by your tradition and teaching, doctrine and dogma, instruction and precept, ritual and exposition, which and what you have passed on and entrusted, committed and delivered, embodied and imparted, transmitted and handed down.


Until you are willing to discard religious traditions/teachings/doctrines and cleanly & freshly examine Yah's TRUTH - His Living Word is dead and meaningless to you.
Offline Mailman Dan  
#30 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 2:08:08 PM(UTC)
Mailman Dan
Joined: 6/2/2011(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: texas

Daniel, you do understand that when I use Christ, I'm using to what I understand as the Messiah fortold in scripture?

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".[3] It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach.

From what I gather on another thread, you think along the same lines, its just the name thats the issue.

Quote:
#2 All sin does not "require blood payment" You could bring flour, or other things for various offerings!


So I can car jack someone, as long as I have some bisquick on hand?

Torah teaches, the souls that sins will die. (Rev. also says all liars have their part in the lake of fire, and who here has never told a lie?)
I submit to you, that it is religion that pratices the passover, yet does not understand why the lambs blood was covered on the door. One reason I would not pratice it, I have the blood covering.




New International Version (©1984)
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
New Living Translation (©2007)
In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

International Standard Version (©2008)
In fact, under the law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
As Moses' Teachings tell us, blood was used to cleanse almost everything, because if no blood is shed, no sins can be forgiven.

King James Bible
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

American King James Version
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

American Standard Version
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Bible in Basic English
And by the law almost all things are made clean with blood, and without blood there is no forgiveness.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Darby Bible Translation
and almost all things are purified with blood according to the law, and without blood-shedding there is no remission.

English Revised Version
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Webster's Bible Translation
And almost all things are by the law cleansed with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Weymouth New Testament
Indeed we may almost say that in obedience to the Law everything is sprinkled with blood, and that apart from the outpouring of blood there is no remission of sins.

World English Bible
According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Young's Literal Translation
and with blood almost all things are purified according to the law, and apart from blood-shedding forgiveness doth not come.


All this based on Hebrews, as you claim, would be a lie because you do not believe it. Yet the basis from this did come from OT teachings.


Dan
Offline cgb2  
#31 Posted : Saturday, June 11, 2011 5:09:47 AM(UTC)
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Mailman Dan wrote:

Torah teaches, the souls that sins will die. (Rev. also says all liars have their part in the lake of fire, and who here has never told a lie?)
I submit to you, that it is religion that pratices the passover, yet does not understand why the lambs blood was covered on the door. One reason I would not pratice it, I have the blood covering.
Dan


So, the command to observe this forever thruout your generations doesn't apply...even during the Millenial kingdom when all temple activities are resumed (read Ezekial)? I would say the liars who this speaks of are those who teach others to disregard his torah, and that it has been done away with. The christian dispensational doctrine and replacement theology is repugnant, and the Pharisitical mindset of works-based salvation twisting really shows in Hebrews as it biulds a strawman and tears it down.

If you closely examine the Torah you will find that all of it speaks of Messiah. It was that trust and reliance that saved, not actual tasks and rituals. That was all a shadow picture of Messiah, and a great way to show in parables while having a party and barbeque. Even in Yahushua's time he told the Pharisees if you had believed Mosheh, you would believe me.
Offline Striver  
#32 Posted : Saturday, June 11, 2011 8:18:10 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 4/6/2011(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Missouri

Your respons to Daniel merely proves his point. "Almost always all things are made clean..." is found in some form in every verse you sited.

I really enjoyed your "bisquick" analogy. Touche'. Very Pauline of you.

Here is how the Third Statement (commandment) actually reads from scripture:

You shall not lift up, support , or advance , forgive or dignify, respect or toleerate, through the Name or reputation
of Yahowah, your God, lifeless and worthless deceptions or devastating and destructive falsehoods. For indeed
Yahowah will not forgive or leave unpunished those who deceive, beguile, or delude, using clever trickery to mislead
in asssociation with His Name, to promote vain and ineffectual lies which lead to lifelessness and destruction, which
nullify our existence, leading to emptiness.

So most of those here will not dignify, respect, or tolerate your trickery to mislead, or your vain and ineffectual lies. Understand that it is not you we don't support, only your message. Quoting from a book as errant as the bible, we realize where you have been mislead. We were where you are at one time. I know you came here to educate us about what you know. But it is obvious that you don't know what you don't know. For your sake step out of Babylon, read Yada Yahweh.
Offline James  
#33 Posted : Saturday, June 11, 2011 1:27:04 PM(UTC)
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Mailman Dan wrote:
Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".[3] It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach.


This is wrong for so many reasons.

First, IF Khristos was the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Mashiach, and Mahiach was the title in Hebrew, than Christ is still wrong. If one is going to translate the Hebrew title into Greek, which is inappropriate to begin with, why would one then transliterate the Greek title into English? An English transliteration of a Greek translation goes against all linguistic rules. You should always translate words, and transliterate names and titles. So if the title was Mashiach than it should be Mashiach in English. If one is going to go with the unorthodox approach of translating titles than it should have been translated into English Anointed.

But that is all predicated on the initial IF, which carries several errors in and of itself.

Lets' start with the Greek shall we. The Greek Khristos was not written in any of the earliest manuscripts. You will find only one place in the whole of the Greek text prior to the mid 4th-century where any variation of chrio was actually written—and it does not apply to Yahowsha’. All references to the Ma’aseyah’s title were presented using the Divine Placeholders ΧΣ, ΧΥ, ΧΩ, and ΧΝ.

The only time we find a derivative of chrio in God’s voice is when the Ma’aseyah Yahowsha’ toys with the Laodicean Assembly (representing Protestant Christians living in today’s Western Democracies) in His seventh prophetic letter. To appreciate His sense of humor, and to fully understand the point He was making, it is important to note that the Laodiceans were wealthy and self-reliant. They made a fortune promoting their own brand of ointment for the ears and eyes known as “Phrygian powder,” under the symbol “Rx.” So referencing their healthcare system, Yahowsha’ admonished: “I advise that you…rub (egchrio – smear) your eyes with medicinal cake (kollourion – a drug preparation for ailing eyes) in order that you might see.” (Revelation 3:18) Therefore, in the singular reference to chrio, the root of christo, in the totality of the pre-Constantine Greek manuscripts, Yahowsha’ used it to describe the application of drugs.

To further indict “Christ” and “Christian,” even if the tertiary definition of chriso, “anointed,” were intended, that connotation still depicts the “application of a medicinal ointment or drug.” And should we ignorantly and inadvisably jettison this pharmaceutical baggage, we’d still be left with other insurmountable problems.
First, the Scriptural evidence strongly suggests that Yahowsha’s title was not “ha Mashiach,” which means “the Anointed,” but instead “ha Ma’aseyah,” which translates to “the Implement Doing the Work of Yahowah.” (More on this in a moment.)

Second, “ha Ma’aseyah,” as a Hebrew title, like the name Yahowsha’, should have been transliterated (presented phonetically) in Greek and also English, not translated. For example, the titles Rabbi, Imam, Pharaoh, Czar, Sheik, and Pope were all transliterated, not translated.

Yahowsha’ was not Greek, did not speak Greek, and did not have a Greek name or a Greek title, so to infer that He did by crudely transliterating Ieosus Christos “Jesus Christ” is grossly misleading and completely deceptive.

Third, there is no justification for using Hellenized nomenclature when addressing a Hebrew concept. And since Yahowsha’ did not communicate in Greek, that language is nothing more than a translation of what He actually conveyed. This would be like transliterating Genghis’ “Khan” title, which means “ruler” in Mongolian, “Jinjeus Malak,” because we like the letter J, the “eus” ending derived from Greek grammar, and malak has the same meaning in Hebrew. Worse, how about rendering Caesar Augustus, “Hairy August,” as that is what caesar means in English. It’s idiotic.

And fourth, the textual evidence suggests that the Divine Placeholders ΧΣ, ΧΥ, ΧΩ, and ΧΝ were not based upon Christos, Christou, Christo, or Christon, as those who have an aversion to all things Hebrew would have you believe. Consider this: writing about the great fire which swept through Rome in 64 CE, the Roman historian Tacitus (the classical world’s most authoritative voice) in Annals XV.44.2-8, revealed: “All human efforts…and propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the fire was the result of an order [from Nero]. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Chrestucians (Chrestuaneos) by the populous. Chrestus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. And a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Iudaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired.”

But there is more, the Nestle-Aland 27th Edition Greek New Testament reveals that Chrestus (χρηστὸς) was scribed in 1 Peter 2:3, not Christos. Their references for this include Papyrus 72 and the Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest extant witnesses of Peter’s (actually of Shim’own Kephas’) letter.

In Shim’own’s epistle, one attested by both ancient manuscripts, the Disciple and Apostle tells us: “As a newborn child, true to our real nature (logikos – genuine, reasonable, rational, and sensible), earnestly desire and lovingly pursue (epipotheo – long for, showing great affection while yearning) the pure and unadulterated (adolos – that which is completely devoid of dishonest intent, deceit, or deception) milk in order to grow in respect to salvation, since we have experienced (geuomai – partaken and tasted, have been nourished by) Yahowah (ΚΣ – from a Divine Placeholder) as the Useful Implement and Upright Servant (Chrestus – the Upright One who is a superior, merciful, gracious, kind, and good tool).” (1 Shim’own / Peter 2:2-3) The fact that we find Chrestus written in the Codex Sinaiticus, and the placeholder ΧΡΣ written in P72 in the same place in this passage, we have an early affirmation that the Divine Placeholder representing the title “Ma’aseyah” was based upon the Greek Chrestus, not Christos.

And while Chrestus isn’t Yahowsha’s title, it is at least an apt translation of it. Chrestus means “useful implement,” and “upright servant,” as well as “merciful one.” It was used to “depict the good and beneficial work of a moral person.” So rather than being “drugged,” a Chrestucian is a “useful implement, an upright servant, and a moral person working beneficially” with Yah. Therefore, while using Chrestus would have been an honest mistake, at least, unlike Christos, it would not have been a deliberate deception.

So now that we know that Christ is absolutely wrong,and that if you were to transliterate the title from Greek instead of Hebrew you have Chrestus, let's look at what His title was in the language of revelation.

To begin, let’s consider the issues of consistency and relevance. Most every important name, title, and word associated with Yahowah and our yashuw’ah / salvation, bears God’s signature: “Yah.” So as you think about the following examples cited from Scripture, please consider the likelihood that Yahowah’s most important title would not be included in this list. And at the same time, I would encourage you to ponder the collective message communicated by these names, while at the same time considering the consequence of their religious corruptions.

Starting with the Savior Yahowsha’, and salvation, yashuw’ah, these words, titles, and names include: yahab – Yah Gives and Yah Provides, yahuwd – Yah Knows and Loves, Yahuwd – the Place Yah Knows and Loves (Judah), Yahuwda’y, Yahuwdy and Yahuwdym – Related to Yah (Jew and Jews), Yahuwdiyth – Yah’s Language (Hebrew), Yahowchanan – Yah is Merciful (John), Yahuwyada’ – Yah Knows (Jehoiada), Yahuwyakyn and Yahuwyaqym – Yah Establishes and Uplifts (Jehoiachin and Jehoiakim), Yahuwnatan – Yah Gives (Jonathan), Yahuwtsadaq – Yah Vindicates (Josedech), Yahuwram – Yah Uplifts (Jehoram), Yahuwsheba’ – Yah’s Promise of Seven (Jehosheba), Yahuwshaphat – Yah Judges (Jehoshaphat), ‘Abiyah and ‘Abiyahuw’ – Yah is my Father (Abijah and Abihu), ‘Edonyah – Yah is the Upright Pillar (Adonijah), ‘Uwryah – Yah is Light (Uriah), ‘Achazyah – Yah Grasps Hold (Ahaziah), ‘Achyah – Yah’s Familial Relationship (Ahijah), ‘Elyah – Yah is God (Elijah), ‘Amatsyah – Yah is Aware and Capable (Amaziah), ‘Amaryah – Yah Speaks (Amariah), binyah – Yah’s Son (building), Banayah – Yah Builds Up and Establishes (Benaiah), biryah – Yah Nourishes (meat), Berekyah – Yah Kneels Down to Bless (Berechaih), gadyah – Yah’s Lamb (kid), Gadalyah and Gadalyahuw – Yah Grows (Gedaliah), gawyah – Yah’s Deceased Body (corpse (speaking of Passover)), Gamaryahuw – Yah Completes (Gemariah), daliyah – Yah’s Branch (branch (a Ma’aseyah metaphor)), Howsha’yah – Saved by Yah (Hoshaiah), Zabadyah – Yah’s Gift Endows (Zebadiah), Zakaryahuw – Remember Yah (Zechariah), Chagiyah – Yah’s Festival Feasts (Haggiah), Chizqyah – Yah Strengthens and Prevails (Hezekiah), chayah – Live with Yah (life), Chilqiyah – Share with Yah (Hilkiah), Chananyahuw – Yah’s Merciful (Hananiah), Chashabyah – Yah’s Plan (Hashabiah), Towbiyah – Yah is Good (Tobiah), Yakda’yah – Acknowledge Yah (Jedaiah), Yachizqiyahuw – Yah Strengthens (also rendered Hezekiah), Yariyahuw – Yah is the Source of Instruction (Jerijah), Yirmayahuw – Yah Lifts Up (Jeremiah), Yasha’yahuw – Salvation is from Yah (Isaiah), Mow’adyah – Yah’s Appointed Meetings (Moadiah), Mowriyah – Revere Yah (Mount Moriah), michyah – Yah Preserves Life (preserves life), Machceyah – Yah’s Shelter (Maaseiah), Malkiyah – Yah Rules (Malchiah), Ma’aseyah – Doing Yah’s Work (Maaseiah), Ma’aseyahuw – Implement of Yah (Maaseiah), Miqneyahuw – Redeemed by Yah (Mikneiah), Mashelemyahuw – Yah’s Visible Likeness (Meshelemiah), Mattanyah and Mathithyahuw – Yah’s Gift (Mattaniah and Matthew), Nachemyah – Yah Consoles and Comforts (Nehemiah), Ne’aryah – Yah’s Young Servant (Neariah), Neriyahuw – Yah’s Lamp (Neriah), Nathanyahuw = Yah Gives (Nethaniah), ‘Obadyah – Work With Yah (Obadiah), ‘Adayah – Yah’s Pass Over Adorns (Adaiah), ‘Uziyahuw and ‘Uziya’ – Yah is Mighty (Uzziah), ‘Ananyah – Yah Appears (Ananiah), ‘Anayah – Yah Answers and Responds (Anaiah), ‘Azaryahuw – Yah Supports and Assists (Azariah), ‘Asayah – Yah Does the Work (Asaiah), ‘Amacyah – Yah Carries Our Burdens (Amasiah), ‘Athalyahuw – Yah’s Splendid Choice (Athaliah), Padayah – Yah Ransoms and Redeems (Pedaiah), Palatyahuw – Yah Saves and Sets Free (Pelatiah), Tsidqiyahuw – Yah’s Justice Vindicates (Zedekiah), tsaphiyah – Observe Yah (examine), Tsaphanyahuw – Treasure Yah (Zephaniah), tuwshiyah – Yah’s Wisdom (wisdom), Tsaruwyah – Be Bound to Yah (Zeruiah), Qowlayah – Listen to the Voice of Yah (Kolaiah), Ramalyahuw – Be Raised by Yah (Remaliah), ra’yah – Yah Loves (love), Shobyah – Yah’s Branch and Staff (Shachia), Sherebyah – Yah’s Scepter (Sherebiah), Sarayah – Persist and Persevere With Yah (Seraiah), Raphayah – Yah Heals & Restores (Rephaiah), Shakanyahuw – Settle and Dwell with Yah (Shechaniah), Shelemyah – Yah Provides a Peace Offering (Shelemiah), Shama’yah – Listen to Yah (Shemaiah), and Shamaryahuw – Closely Observe Yah (Shemariah).

Reading this list, it becomes evident that the prophets and disciples, Yasha’yahu (Isaiah), Zakaryahuw (Zechariah), Chizqyah (Hezekiah), Yirmayahuw (Jeremiah), ‘Elyah (Elijah), Nachemyah (Nehemiah), Mathithyahuw (Matthew), and Yahowchanan (John), told us to Shama’yah (listen to Yah) in Yahuwdiyth (Yah’s Language) regarding a Yahuwdy (Jewish) yashuw’ah (Savior) who arrived in Yahuwd (Judah) named Yahowsha’ as the ‘Edonyah (Upright Pillar), as the Ma’aseyah (Implement Doing the Work of Yah), as binyah (Yah’s Son), as gadyah (Yah’s Lamb), as daliyah (Yah’s Branch), berekyah (as Yah kneeling down and diminishing Himself to bless us), banayah (establishing) the Towrah (written instruction, teaching, direction, and guidance) on Mount Mowriyah (Revere Yah) on the Chagiyah (Yah’s Festival Feast), the Mow’adyah (Yah’s Appointed Meeting Time), of ‘Adayah (Yah’s Passover) to Padayah (ransom and redeem us to Yah) to Palatyahuw (have Yah save us and sets us free), with Tsidqiyahuw (Yah’s justice vindicating us) so that we might chayah (live with Yah), Shakanyahuw (settling down and dwelling with Yah). So in conclusion: Zakaryahuw Yahowchanan Yahsa’yahuw (Remember Yah is our Merciful Savior), the Ma’aseyah (the Implement Doing the Work of Yahowah) which is Yahowsha’ (Yahowah Saving Us).

But perhaps, Yah had a senior moment, and after conveying 265 essential names, titles, and words bearing His signature, including Yahowah and Yahowsha’, on the most important title of all relative to our salvation, He got distracted, lost interest, and failed to seize the opportunity to associate Himself with the Ma’aseyah. Or maybe, just maybe, the same Masoretes who corrupted Yahowsha’s name, giving us Yehshu, also corrupted Ma’aseyah, giving us Mashiach, and thus Messiah.

The second insight I’d like you to consider relative to the validity of Ma’aseyah versus Mashiach and Messiah is the number of times one versus the other appears in God’s Word. You may be surprised to learn that we know for certain that Ma’aseyah and Ma’seyahuw were written twenty-three times throughout the Prophets and Writings (in Yirmayahuw/Jeremiah, in 1&2 Chronicles, in Ezra/Ezrah, and in Nachemyah/Nehemiah). Mashiach, on the other hand, may have been scribed twice, both times in Dan’el/Daniel. (The reason I wrote “may” will become evident in a moment.)

Third, the textual spelling from which Ma’aseyah and Mashiach are vocalized is identical save the concluding letter. Throughout Yah’s Word in paleo-Hebrew (twenty-three times in five different books), we discover that the final letter in Ma’aseyah is Hey (ה), providing the same “ah” sound as we find at the end of Yahowah’s name. But in the book of Daniel, the only one originally scribed in both Aramaic and Babylonian Hebrew, we find a Chet (ח), conveying the hard “ch” sound. And while these letters would never have been confused in paleo-Hebrew, they are so similar in Babylonian Hebrew (ה vs. ח), that once a scroll has been unfurled and handled a number of times this minor distinction (the length of the left leg) would be lost.

Since the evidence is our guide to the truth, be aware that there are eight partial manuscripts of Daniel in the Dead Sea Scroll collection. These were copied between 125 BCE and 50 CE. It should be noted that all four scrolls containing material from the first eight chapters of the book, are initially scribed in Babylonian Hebrew, but they switch to Aramaic in the midst of chapter 2, verse 4, and then revert back to Hebrew at the beginning of the eighth chapter. (Along these lines, it is also interesting to note that the longer Roman Catholic version of Daniel, with the Prayer of Azariah, the Song of Three Men, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon, isn’t supported by any Qumran manuscript.)

None of the eight scrolls found in the Qumran caves provide any witness to the text between Daniel 7:18 and 10:4. And unfortunately, the two passages with references to the Ma’aseyah or ha Mashiach, Daniel 9:25 and 9:26, are right in the midst of this void. That means that the oldest manuscript attesting to this minor difference (the length of the left leg on the concluding letter) with major implications (Ma’aseyah or Mashiach) was written by rabbinical Masoretes in the 11th-century CE. So it is in this manuscript, known as the Codex Leningradensis (dated to 1008 CE and published in 1937), that the rabbinical agenda, openly stated in the 3rd of Maimonides’ 13 Principles of Judaism (God is incorporeal) strives to distance the Rabbinical Mashiach from Yahowah—a G-d whose name rabbis will neither write nor speak. As such the evidence on behalf of Ma’aseyah is strong and on behalf of Mashiach is weak.

Fourth, every Scriptural name and title, from Isaiah to Zachariah, from Mount Moriah to the Messiah, which is transliterated “iah” today, is actually “yah” in the revealed text. Just as Qumbayah and Halaluyah speak volumes to those with an ear for Yah’s Word today, so does the legacy of “iah” at the end of “Messiah.”

Fifth, Ma’aseyah provides a perfect depiction of how Yahowah used Yahowsha’. As Ma’aseyah, He was “Yah’s Implement, Doing the Work of Yahowah.” Ma’aseyah even serves as the perfect complement to Yahowsha’, whereby we are told that “Salvation is from Yah.”

Sixth, Ma’aseyah helps illuminate Yahowah’s First Written Instruction: “Zakar/Remember the Shabat/Sabbath.” After using two of Hebrew’s three words for “doing work,” ‘abad and ‘asah, (the other being ma’aseh) Yahowah asks us not to do any mala’kah on Shabat. Recognizing that mala’kah is based upon mal’ak, which is “a spiritual being, God’s servant, a theophanic manifestation tasked with the job of delivering the heavenly message,” it becomes evident that we are being asked not to do the work of the Ma’aseyah, because He is the “Implement Yahowah has Tasked to Do His Work.” In other words: Yah can save us, but we cannot save ourselves.


Seventh, now that we know that the Divine Placeholders used in the Greek text to represent the Ma’aseyah were based upon Chrestus, not Christos, we find a perfect match. Both words convey the same message: Yahowsha’ is Yah’s “Useful Implement,” His “Upright Servant,” who does “Good, Moral, and Beneficial Work.” And that is better than being “Christ/Drugged.”

It is therefore reasonable for us to conclude that Yahowah assigned the title Ma’aseyah to Yahowsha’.


let’s examine Ma’aseyah through the lens of paleo-Hebrew—the language of revelation. The first letter, Mah, which is now called Mem, was conveyed by way of waves upon the water. It symbolized the origin of life and cleansing. And even today, mah in Hebrew means “water.”

The second letter is Ayin. This character, which is also found in Yahowsha’s name, was drawn to depict an eye. It was used to convey the ideas of sight, observation, knowledge, perspective, and understanding.

The third letter in Ma’aseyah is Sin, which is called Samech today. Its graphic symbol was akin to a thorn, a hard sharp object which was known to pierce. It came from a bush which served as a protective barrier from carnivores and ill-tempered men. It conveyed the ideas of cutting, piercing, separation, and division, in addition to shielding and protecting.

The last two letters in Ma’aseyah are mirrored in the beginnings of Yahowah’s and Yahowsha’s names. As we now know, the Yowd was drawn to represent an arm and hand, and it symbolized the power and authority to do whatever work was necessary.

The final letter in Ma’aseyah is Hey, whose pictographic form revealed a person reaching up and pointing to the heavens. It conveyed the importance of observing God, and of reaching up to Him for assistance.

The picture painted by these historical characters collectively tell us that the Ma’aseyah is the source of life and of spiritual cleansing for those who know and understand Him, who observe His words and deeds from the proper perspective. While He was pierced for our sins, and while He came to bring division, He has the power to protect and shield. As Yahowah’s representative, the Ma’aseyah comes with the power and authority of God. He is literally the work of God. Those who recognize these things, and who reach up and rely upon Him, will find Him ready and willing to assist.

Truth is so much more enlightening than religious myth and corruptions.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline JamesH  
#34 Posted : Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:17:32 PM(UTC)
JamesH
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Location: Fresno, CA

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For Christians only
Let Dan answer the simple questions first using the information you here at YADA YAHWEH have given him or use his own.

The reason I asked Dan if he knew when the name Jesus was first used is because of Acts 4:12 It states that there is salvation in only one name. If Jesus is that name, the name Jesus did not exist until sometime in the 1500 CE.
Question
1. Is the Book of acts wrong?
2. What name were people saved in previous to 1500 CE?
3. Scripture and Verse?

Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”


Jim
Offline JamesH  
#35 Posted : Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:59:37 PM(UTC)
JamesH
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Dan,
I’m a little behind on the posts, when I went back and checked on your answer to Walt’s Question and the one I asked. (Who gave Paul his authority?) You replied using quotes from Acts.
So your answer is Paul gave himself authority because Paul told Luke the information that was written in Acts.
Richard also asked you about Acts, Luke and Paul and you did not answer his question.
Jim
Offline James  
#36 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2011 11:32:42 AM(UTC)
James
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While we haven't heard from Dan in awhile, I was reading through the latest additions to ITG, and came across a verse I thought I would share here. Really the entire Towrah section of ITG is dedicated to reviewing what Yahowah said was the reason for His Towrah, here is just example:


“Blessed, enjoyable, and favorable (‘ashry) is the Way (derek) to becoming innocent, perfect, and entirely blameless (tamym) by walking (halak) in (ba) the Towrah (Towrah) of Yahowah (Yahowah).
Properly guided (‘ashery) are those who are saved and preserved (nasar) by His testimony (‘edah). They genuinely seek to have a relationship with Him and His witness (darash) for all (la kol) time (dowr).
Therefore (‘ap) they do not carry out (lo’ pa’al) that which is harmful or wrong (‘eowlah) by walking in His ways (ba derek halak).
You (‘atah) Yourself ordained (sawah) Your percepts (piquwdym) so that they would be diligently observed, and very, very carefully examined and considered (la ma’od shamar).
So that (‘achalay) my path through life (derek) would be properly prepared and firmly established (kuwn) by (la) observing, examining, and considering (shamar) Your truth, Your consistent, never changing, sure, honest, fair, enduring, and reliable testimony (‘emeth).
Then (‘az), I will not be ashamed (bowsh) by (ba) looking at (nabat) all of (kol) God’s (‘el) commandments, the terms and conditions of Your binding contract (mitswah).
You, I will publicly acknowledge and thank, expressing my gratitude while professing Your attributes (yadah) directly in an upright attitude (ba yashar leb) when (ba) I learn and properly respond to (lamad) Your just, fair, and honest (tsadaq) means to resolve disputes (mishpat).
According to (‘eth) Your clearly communicated prescriptions (choq) by being observant (shamar) I will not be forsaken by You, I will never be neglected or disassociated from You (‘azab), not for one hundred (me’ah) eternities (‘ad).” (Mizmowr/Pslams 119:1-8)


Also, another one I came across awhile back which is particularly telling:

“And (wa) you should observe (shamar – closely examine and carefully consider) and you should do and engage in (‘asah – celebrate and profit from) this (huw’) in order for (ky) you to be wise (hakamah – to have the capacity to think properly), for you to be discerning (bynah – to process information and respond morally and rationally), in addition to gaining perspective (wa la ra’ah – for seeing things from the proper vantage point). The family (‘am – the people) who by association (‘asher – as a result of the relationship) listens to (shama’ – receives and hears, heeds and pronounces) all of (kol) God’s (‘elah) clearly communicated prescriptions (choq – thoughts and decrees), and declares them (‘amar – communicates them and calls others to them) exclusively (raq – only, and at the exclusion of anything else), that family (‘am – those related people) will be wise (hakam – will possess the ability to think) and will be discerning (byn – be able to know and process information thoughtfully, rationally, and morally), and they will be considered worthy and great (gadowl – meritorious and important, significant and valuable, highly regarded and distinguished) among people everywhere (zeh gowy – those from different races and places).” (Dabarym / Words / Deuteronomy 4:6)

Again, the entirety of the Towrah section of ITG is a must read, it should be posted soon, we think.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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