Noel wrote:There is a danger here that we may miss the point, I think.
1)Yes, the 'you have to be circumcised' view tends to come from people who (conveniently) already have been when they can't even remember it
Guilty. I had no say in my circumcision, as my children if I have boys will have no say in theres. Yah has told me to circumcise my sons and I will. If I was not circumcised at birth, I don't see how my view on this would change at all. I read in the Torah where Yah says that every male should be circumcised, I want to follow what He says, I would save the money, it might take a while and a few sacrifices in creature comforts, but I would save the money and do it. And if by chance something happened to me while I was trying to save the money and I died, I will trust Yah to be just, but I'm not going to ignore his instruction because I might die before I can get it done.
Noel wrote:2) It was most probably done on the wrong day by the wrong person, and therefore, probably needs to be done again, although I'm not quite sure which bit goes next.
I don't know how old i was when it was done to me. I see nowhere saying it has to be done by a priest. I imagine usually it was done by the father, Abraham circumcised Issac.
noel wrote:3) If you are going to do it, then it has to be by your own choice, and not done before you began your relationship with Yah..........(otherwise it is no different than baptizing babies years before they decide (if ever they do) to start a relationship with Yah.
Actually for the uncircumcised if you are coming to Yah, he does say to get circumcised, but for the majority it was to be done as an infant. It was sign between the parents and Yah. And there is a difference between circumcising an infant, as Yah said, and baptizing a baby, which he never says. Baptism is not a replacement for circumcision, that is a Christian idea. Baptism is completely separate from circumcision. Immersing yourself in the spirit is a personal choice, and must be, but circumcision Yah said to do to your sons, on the eighth day.
noel wrote:4) We are not, as I understand it, going to have the same bodies when we meet him, any more than Yahushua did after he was glorified.
True, our bodies will not be the same, if we even have them. This however does not change the fact that Yah told us to be circumcised, and to circumcise our sons.
noel wrote:5) There are lots of bits of the body which won't fit into a heavenly perspective, not just the foreskin. A gut half full of pooh for a start. (You call it something else in the USA, I believe)
I'm sorry, but I don't see your point here.
noel wrote:6) If, (and I doubt) some are told at the gate to the heavenly tabernacle...."sorry, dude, you can't come in with that thing on", then you should ask Yahushua to please do it for you then and there if it is the one thing which would keep you out of an eternal fellowship with him.
The question really is not rather or not we will be kept out, the question is did he tell us to do it, and why would we not do it.
I'm not saying, and not going to say that everyone here who is not circumcised is going to be turned away for not being circumcised, just like I wouldn't say that anyone here who has ever eaten non-food, will be kept out, or anyone who has ever worked on the Sabbath will be kept out, or that everyone who has told a lie will be kept out. I'm also not saying that circumcision saves us, just as I wouldn't say that not eating non-food saves us, or keeping the Sabbath saves etc. All I am saying is that Yah told us to do it, and our desire should be to do what he told us. So if we know for a fact that he told us to be circumcised why would we not want to do it, why do so many want to try to find a reason not to, or argue that you won't be kept out for not doing it.
What worries me is that there are several verses, like the one I cited above, where a very strong emphasis is put on being circumcised.
I think reading the account of Abraham is a really good way for us to view ourselves coming into a relationship with Yah. Like us Abraham was not raised in a relationship to Yah, he came to it latter in life. Like us he was raised in Babylon, and had to leave. Like us he didn't have a clue what to do when he started. Like us once he came to a relationship, he raised his family in it.
Yah never said to have women circumcised, and he never said that women who weren't circumcised would be excluded. Again, Yah said males are to be circumcised.
Matthew wrote:2) What about those beheaded during Tribulation for the One who died on the wooden apparatus? If they are not circumcised before their beheading are they not saved? What if they still have not yet read Questioning Paul, of all books, and still hold Paul dear to them, but still choose to be beheaded for the Messiah (or Jesus, as many will probably know Him by) rather than bow to the Beast?
I don't know, I trust Yah. But that doesn't change anything of what Yah said. We are here and now, we can be circumcised, we know he said to be circumcised. So why not do it? Let's say that Yah has provisions for those who are unable to be circumcised, does that mean we, who are able, should ignore his instruction to be circumcised?
Matthew wrote:3) Are we today keeping the feast of Passover literally correct?
No offense Matthew, I love you, but this is the same as Christian's that argue we can't keep the Torah 100%, so why bother to try. No we can't keep Passover 100% literally, but we should still try to the best of our ability. We can't keep Torah 100%, but we should try to the best of our ability.
Matthew wrote:4) Does circumcision to another god, like Allah, count if one converted from Islam to following Yahweh?
Don't know. Doesn't change anything. The question is should someone who is not circumcised be circumcised.
Matthew wrote:5) What are the greatest Commandments, are we keeping them?
Even if we were keeping them 100%, which I'm sure most of us fall short of even that, it doesn't change what Yah said. Yahushua said If you love me keep my commands. He commanded circumcision of every male. There are dozens of verses where Yah says that non Yahudi were to be circumcised, in the verse above Yah went so far as to say if the stranger amongst them wanted to partake in the Passover he had to be circumcised.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that we don't need to be circumcised, nowhere does it say only Yahudi are to be circumcised, repeatedly it tells us that every male is to be circumcised. Unless you can find a verse that says we should not be circumcised, I might have missed something.
I apologies if some of this comes across strong, it is not my intention to be insulting, or condemning. But in the spirit of Love your neighbor as yourself, It seems this is pretty important to Yah, and I would want someone to do the same for me.