logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline James  
#1 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:37:16 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
This topic was taking over in another thread, so i am moving it here, so as not to hijack that thread. The discussion is on the Sabbath, and started with rather or not service on the Sabbath is acceptable, and has turned into a discussion of what is and isn't acceptable on the Sabbath.

I'll start this thread with Yah's commandment on the Sabbath, as it is found in Exodus.

Exodus 20:8-11 wrote:
Remember (zakar — recall, recognize, mark, memorialize, mention, proclaim, and be earnestly mindful of) that the Sabbath (shabat — the seventh day, the time of observance, of rest to reflect on God’s promise to settle our debts so we could settle with Him on the seventh) day (yowm) is set apart (qadash — is separated unto God for purifying and cleansing and thus special). Six (shesh) days you shall work (‘abad — labor) and do (‘asah — prepare and produce, fashion and finish, advance, assign, and accomplish, institute and celebrate) all (kol — the entirety of) your service of representing the Messenger and proclaiming the message (mala’kah — your Godly duties and heavenly labor). But (wa) the seventh (shaby’y — solemn promise which fulfills and satisfies those who listen and are observant of the role of the seventh) day (yowm), the Sabbath (shabat — the seventh day, the time of observance, of rest and reflection, and of ceasing and desisting from ordinary labor to consider the promise to settle all disputes and settle down) of Yahuweh (YHWH) your God (‘elohym), you shall not do (lo’ ‘asah — not prepare or produce, fashion or finish, advance, assign, or accomplish) any part of (kol) the work of God’s Representative and Messenger (mala’kah — from mal’ak, the ministry and mission of the heavenly envoy, the Divine endeavors and labor of God’s corporeal manifestation) yourself (‘atah), nor your son (ben), your daughter (bat), your servants and employees (‘ebed / ‘amah), your means of production (behemah — animals and beasts of burden), and those visitors (ger - foreigners) who relationally (‘asher) are in (ba) your home, property, or community (sa’ar — area enclosed by a door or gate, a household, assembly, city, or nation).For indeed in (ky — because surely and truly in) six (shesh) days (yowm) Yahuweh (YaHuWeH) made (‘asah — prepared and produced, fashioned and finished, instituted and celebrated) accordingly (‘eth) the heavens (shamaym — the spiritual realm) and the earth (‘erets — the material world), and the seas (yam), and all (kol — everything) which relationally (‘asher) is in them (ba). And (wa) He became completely settled (nuwach — rested after settling all unresolved issues) during (ba) the seventh (shaby’y — solemn promise which fulfills and satisfies those who listen and are observant of the role of the seventh) day (yowm). Therefore (ken — consequently, this is true and correct) Yahuweh blessed and adored (barak — knelt down and lowered Himself to greet those He had created and lift them up on) the Sabbath (shabat — the seventh day, the time of observance, of rest and reflection, and of ceasing and desisting from ordinary labor to consider the promise God has made to settle our debts and settle us in His home on this) day (yowm), setting it apart (qodesh — separating it from others, dedicating it to separation, cleansing, and purifying).

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#2 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:37:43 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
MadDog wrote:
You are having services on the Sabbath which goes directly
against the commandment not to work and/or not having your
family or servants work. I stay at home and rest on the Sabbath.
I used to go to the store until I realized that in order to do so
I was making the clerk break the Sabbath as well as myself.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#3 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:38:07 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
flintface wrote:
As for having a service on the Sabbath, I agree with MadDog that it sounds anti-Torah. It would depend, I think, on what you are calling a service. An informal getting together of the family of Yahuwah where there is fellowship, a meal, Scripture reading and discussion: that is not work in my mind. Anything smelling like a Christian or Jewish worship service, on the other hand, would be totally out of line.

My 31 year-old wife is wheelchair bound. So when she needs to relieve herself on the Sabbath, I do not hesitate for an instant to off-load her from her wheelchair onto her toilet and vice-versa. Nor does it bother my conscience to clean up after her if needed. Had I a baby, I wouldn't balk for a second to change its diaper on the Sabbath. That is the "donkey falling into the well" concept mentioned earlier, and it is reasonable because our Father in Heaven is reasonable. I have to bite my lip concerning certain other household chores, because I've been called onto the carpet for doing some of them on the Sabbath. It seems innocent enough, but my conscience has cleared its throat quite loudly a few times, and I have distinctly heard a small voice warning me against profaning His Sabbath.

So, like I said, your service may or may not be in violation of Yahuwah's Sabbath. It would depend on what you do there.

Love to all,

Richard
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:38:32 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
James wrote:
There are some occupations that I'm quite frankly are glad don't refuse to work on the Sabbath. I'm sure most here if they had a heart attack on the Sabbath would be happy that the Doctor doesn't refuse to work. The Sabbath I think must be viewed as Yahushua said, for us, not we for it.

I don't mind doing work around the house during the Sabbath, because I find much of it relaxing and enjoyable, and don't consider it work. If i were in the process of repainting my house I would feel no guilt about doing it on the Sabbath, because I find working on my house relaxing and enjoyable, and if I am doing it with my wife it is even more enjoyable, and I am spending time with my family, something I don't think Yah ever objects to.

I have a few Jewish friends, who have turned the Sabbath into a burden rather than the blessing that it is. We shouldn't do that either. Yah gave us the Sabbath and it is a great thing and we should enjoy, not spend the whole day trying to figure out is it okay to do this, or not.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#5 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:38:54 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
MadDog wrote:

I would consider that work. The point of the Sabbath was that we cannot achieve salvation without Yahweh (6 + 1). Your first point I agree with as in for emergencies, doing good trumps being legalistic. Yahshau proved it over and over again by healing on the Sabbath. So you consider your Jewish friends in the wrong because in your opinion they've made it a burden, but on the other hand it's okay for you to work on the Sabbath because it makes you feel good. Hmmm!

You kind of sound like Paul when you say not to worry about the Torah. So now it's okay to eat unclean food? It's okay to disregard just one commandment out of ten?

Putting feelings above the written word is not right. Christians would argue that it is okay to celebrate Christmas because God knows their hearts and their intent despite what is written in the Torah. What is so hard about "not working" on the Sabbath? How is it a burden not to work?

And I don't go around all day on the Sabbath trying to figure out what is okay or not, it's pretty simple; just don't work on the Sabbath.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline James  
#6 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 6:33:50 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
MadDog, I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that it is okay to work on the Sabbath because it makes me feel good, I was saying that I don't consider that work. What we have is a disagreement over what is considered work and what isn't.

My point of turning it into a burden was predicated upon my experience with Jewish friends, who follow a strict rabbinical law that does turn it into a burden, i.e. not being able to turn on a light switch, not being able to cook, not being able to drive or travel more than a short distance etc.

But still the question is what is considered work, me and you have different ideas of what is considered work, and everyone has different views on the matter. Some would say that cooking on the Sabbath is not to be done because it is work, I personally don't consider cooking working, you might I don't know.

What's important is that we all understand the message of the Sabbath, that we can't work for our salvation, which is why Yah used the word mala’kah. What is interesting, at least to me, is that in the first part Yah uses 'abad and mala'kah, when saying that for six days we will 'abad and mala'kah, but when it comes to what not do only mala'kah is used, 'abad which is labor and service is not prohibited, only mala'kah is. This to me says that not all 'abad is mala'kah.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline MadDog  
#7 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 8:59:25 AM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

James wrote:
MadDog, I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that it is okay to work on the Sabbath because it makes me feel good, I was saying that I don't consider that work. What we have is a disagreement over what is considered work and what isn't.

My point of turning it into a burden was predicated upon my experience with Jewish friends, who follow a strict rabbinical law that does turn it into a burden, i.e. not being able to turn on a light switch, not being able to cook, not being able to drive or travel more than a short distance etc.

But still the question is what is considered work, me and you have different ideas of what is considered work, and everyone has different views on the matter. Some would say that cooking on the Sabbath is not to be done because it is work, I personally don't consider cooking working, you might I don't know.

What's important is that we all understand the message of the Sabbath, that we can't work for our salvation, which is why Yah used the word mala’kah. What is interesting, at least to me, is that in the first part Yah uses 'abad and mala'kah, when saying that for six days we will 'abad and mala'kah, but when it comes to what not do only mala'kah is used, 'abad which is labor and service is not prohibited, only mala'kah is. This to me says that not all 'abad is mala'kah.


I see your point, but house work is work because it benefits you. If working on the Sabbath would benefit someone in dire need as in an emergency just like Yashua did by healing on the Sabbath, it would be okay in my book.

Todays Jews do not just follow the Torah, they follow the Talmud which gives them all the legalism that you witness them doing. All the Torah says is not to work as in a day of complete rest. I thought Criag and Ken covered this pretty well.

I don't leave the house until the end of the Sabbath except to maybe to take a walk sometimes. And as for cooking you can always fast if your health permits and/or there are always ready to eat meals. It's just one day, I just don't see what's so hard about making it special and set-apart.

But like I said, in Judaism, they follow the Talmud which is going overboard in my book. The best and easiest solution in my book is to just not work, no house work, no doing the laudry, no washing dishes, no nothing. Sleeping and reading really helps the time pass by as well.

Offline shalom82  
#8 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 6:52:25 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
What I think is important is to realize there is a broad range of agreement. We agree when it is....not to work at our occupation...not to conduct commerce....and so on. I think the best we can do is observe the sabbath day as we as individuals and families are convicted with the best possible effort not to justify what we know deep down we have misgivings about. There will be a time where it is settled and no one will have any questions. As for me....I am convinced towards what could be called strict observance of the day. I know it is a day that is made for man and that is a day made for our delight and joy. And when I say this I know what I must sound like but it is sincere. What is a greater joy than to know God and communicate with Him and learn of His plans and purposes and look into His heart with singular purpose and attention. All these other days we can fix our hearts on work or play for that matter. On that day is it better to play kickball with the family or is it better to sing the tehillim with family or read from the Torah with family. Yes, the shabbat is made made for man but what was it made for? I know it sometimes seems like a labor to make the effort to devote the day entirely to Him and even more so it is hard to settle down...slow down....and chill....but doesn't that say more about us than it does about Him? It is an effort yes.....but in my experience it is an effort that becomes natural, necessary and richly rewarded. Can you teach your children about YHWH with kickball.....I have no doubt....people are creative. I don't know what the answer is. There are shabbats when I would like to go fishing or work in the garden but I am in my heart convinced that the day is not made for these things. That is not to say that others aren't convinced in the opposite direction. Having said that maybe I am liberal when it comes to fellowship. If I am wrong I apologize but it seems some are against attending a fellowship of believers/congregation. I am all for that and in a perfect world where all the YY'ers lived in one big community I would hope that we would have some form of scheduled and structured exultation and fellowship....whether it was in a building made for that purpose or in the more spacious houses on a rotating schedule within the community. If Yahosha was going to the synagogues on the shabbat and reading from haftorah then I can't see anything objectional in that practice. The best thing we can do with issues like this is discuss the matter...be honest and open about it.....and continue on as brothers and sisters in the spirit of love and understanding. It is always a hard call. We aim for truth and scriptual soundness in our practices and it would seem that those purposes demand that we often strike a hard line. But there are times when wish there would have been a little more heart and a little less brain. Once again....balance is what is needed and that is no easy task. Do what you deem to be right through conviction of the scriptures with the realization that there is an absolute standard with the utmost gravity. Go with God...as they say. Then give your brothers the benefit of the doubt...that they have made the decision on how to observe the 7th day with the utmost gravity and with prayer.

Shalom

P.S. As for cooking....a hearty crockpot meal stowed in the fridge till early morning then slow cooked till lunch/dinner is a fine way to avoid cooking at least one meal. We often in this way have a large hot dinner and then in the evening a cold informal supper of cold meats, salads, relishes, cheeses, a veggie or fruit tray with our bread...what have you...in this way both meals can be prepared before the sabbath and prepared and presented with as little fuss as possible. I just offer this as the way we do it. I am not saying that those who cook are to be excommunicated...but I certainly think that it is nice and far from burdensome to do it this way.
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Richard  
#9 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:05:53 PM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
In Numbers 15:32-36, we see that Moses wrote:
While the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Yahuwah said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside of the camp.”

All the congregation brought him outside of the camp, and stoned him to death with stones; as Yahweh commanded Moses.


Here was a fellow gathering sticks, possibly for starting a fire (Who knows? Evidently, why he was doing it didn't matter.). Dad condemned him to be stoned to death for profaning the Sabbath. So we each have to ask Dad whether or not what we're doing is considered to be work in His eyes. Because certainly He does not have a cavalier attitude towards this matter of the Sabbath day.

I'm with MadDog on much of this. I will not do laundry or dishes on the Sabbath. I won't work in the yard or sweep the deck or empty the kitten's litter box. There is service, like ministering to my invalid wife's physical needs, which is acceptable, and then there is work, which is labor. It is important throughout Scripture that we make a difference between clean and unclean, between what is acceptable to Yahuwah and what is not. So, while none of us ought to go about looking at how we can point the finger at others and shout, "Aha!", at the same time we should each be mature and serious in how we approach this most special Day that our Heavenly Father has given to us.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#10 Posted : Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:16:15 PM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

Why did you have to share that.


It makes me think differently of Dad :(
Offline MadDog  
#11 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 12:11:40 AM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

shalom82 wrote:
It is always a hard call. We aim for truth and scriptural soundness in our practices and it would seem that those purposes demand that we often strike a hard line. But there are times when wish there would have been a little more heart and a little less brain.


That is really a mouthful that you said. It is not a hard call at all. You are the one who is making it a hard call. What in Yahweh's name is soooooooooo hard about not working on the Sabbath? I just can't see it?

Do not work on the Sabbath? Take it easy, rest, relax, stand still for once, and stand with Yahweh.

shalom82 wrote:
Do what you deem to be right through conviction of the scriptures with the realization that there is an absolute standard with the utmost gravity. Go with God...as they say. Then give your brothers the benefit of the doubt...that they have made the decision on how to observe the 7th day with the utmost gravity and with prayer.


Give my brothers the benefit of the doubt? Just like giving Paul (a false prophet) the benefit of the doubt. If you ask a million people what is right and what is wrong then you'll get two million different opinions.

There is a right and wrong and that is what drove us here to YY.

What you quoted above is gibberish. It is utter rubbish.

Do what I deem to be right? As opposed to the Torah?! The Torah is pretty clear on what to do or what not to do; the rest is human imagination.
Offline MadDog  
#12 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 12:19:21 AM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

sirgodfrey wrote:
Why did you have to share that.


It makes me think differently of Dad :(


It means that this man was warned on multiple times to stop.

Yet he continued.

Apparently he didn't care or disregarded Yahweh's law.

Don't think that this group of Jews were without law.

They had Judges and Juries and Witnesses.

According to the modern English translations it would appear
the Jews just randomly pointed a finger and condemmend a
man to death.

There is more to this story then meets the eye.
Offline James  
#13 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 3:34:57 AM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
MadDog wrote:
I see your point, but house work is work because it benefits you. If working on the Sabbath would benefit someone in dire need as in an emergency just like Yashua did by healing on the Sabbath, it would be okay in my book.

Todays Jews do not just follow the Torah, they follow the Talmud which gives them all the legalism that you witness them doing. All the Torah says is not to work as in a day of complete rest. I thought Criag and Ken covered this pretty well.

I don't leave the house until the end of the Sabbath except to maybe to take a walk sometimes. And as for cooking you can always fast if your health permits and/or there are always ready to eat meals. It's just one day, I just don't see what's so hard about making it special and set-apart.

But like I said, in Judaism, they follow the Talmud which is going overboard in my book. The best and easiest solution in my book is to just not work, no house work, no doing the laudry, no washing dishes, no nothing. Sleeping and reading really helps the time pass by as well.



I understand completely that Jews today follow Talmud more than Torah, a topic of many great discussions I have had with them.

In honesty, I observe the Sabbath much the same as you, I was mostly trying to facilitate a discussion which is why I played contrarian. Although I would say I agree with Shalom 82, in that it is for each of us to read the Torah ourselves and decide what the best way to observe it. As soon as we start telling others what they can and can't do we become the same as the rabbis who wrote the Talmud.

I may disagree with how someone is observing it, and I will engage them in discussion about it, and try to explain what I may think is wrong. For instance you say you don't leave the house, if that is your choice, then fine, but it is not forbidden in anyway, Yahushua was often out and about on the Sabbath, one I my favorite things to do on the Sabbath is to go for walks with my wife and discuss Yah's word, or on a cold day, go for a drive and do the same.

I was reading up on the Sabbath some, and was going through TOM and found a really good quote from Ken that I like.

TOM wrote:
It boils down not to what, but to why. If a deed is done for the purpose of supporting yourself financially or materially, then you should refrain from doing it on the Sabbath. But if it is done out of a spirit of love, mercy, or just plain good manners—even if it’s only feeding the family pet—then it’s not really considered work under the Sabbath Law.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline shalom82  
#14 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 3:09:10 PM(UTC)
shalom82
Joined: 9/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: Penna

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
MadDog,
I don't really understand why you have written the things you have written about me. Could you not have asked for a clarification first if something did not sit well with you. Because I have to say whether by your haste or by a fault of my writing you have not understood what I have meant. Have we not had enough wrath and discord for one year or a lifetime on this forum? I am a brother. If you have something against me for my own wrath or for my own shortcomings then I apologize. But I have to say I have clearly stated my stance on how to observe and participate in the Shabbat. And I can't see how my position is any different than yours other than the fact that you have reasons to assert that it is best to not leave your house during shabbat. I believe that given the right reasons it is fitting and right to leave your house....Especially as it pertains to fellowship in a congregation. If I have misunderstood your position I apologize. I have not said to do what is contrary to the Torah and the example of our Messiah. In fact...just the opposite. NOt just in this specific post...but even in my other most recent post..... I think most of the older members know enough about me and the evidence of my writing to affirm that I am not just passionate about "observing" the torah in the spiritual sense and by mere understanding and appreciation...but also practical application. I was the one who started the post "living out the Torah" I would never deliberately enull or destroy Torah in any sense. I would never claim to resort to a self originating arbitrary and subjective standard of right and wrong as you implied I did in the response to the second quote of my writing. I did not say do what feels right with no basis in what is sound and solid. I specifically said that you must not try to justify license for behavior that is incongrous with scripture....that you cannot twist the Tanakh or the writings for your own purposes. The Torah must be your foundation...your first and last resource. I did not advocate housework or garden work or even leisure activities in fact I rejected them in favor of things like reading and reflecting on Torah/haftorah and singing tehillim. I have tried to share a solution for cooking meals with my brothers and sisters that might be agreeable to all parties. What do you advocate? Perhaps fasting? If you want to be honest and open as I clearly stated we should all be....I believe that that suggestion is not in harmony with either the spirit or the practical carrying out of Torah. This is the millenial harbinger we are talking about. The time of joy and celebration of plenty and health. I can see no evidence that we should fast...and in fact are missing out on the breadth and depth of the Torah if we do. Some would go so far as to state it is violation. So I disagree with you. I am not going to be sarcastic and tell you that your writing is rubbish or gibberish and bandy about Paul like some sort of club to beat you over the head with. What you have done....you have in my opinion offered several opinions that I contend are contrary to the spirit and the flesh of Torah. I would not and did not castigate you or insult you. I disagree and I have tried to state my reasons why with love and understanding...sometimes not even mentioning the disagreement but rather offering solutions to the issue with the hope they would bring focus to the issue. Can you say you have done the same? I said we should openly discuss our differences and our reasons. We should be honest. But why must we fly off the handle in what must be construed as a deliberate effort to alienate and embarrass our brothers and sisters. I have to be honest and also say that you were a little harsh and quick to judgement about what I was referring to. I was not merely writing only about the specific and obvious examples that have been in discussion but also a more general treatment of the whole of sabbath ordinance. Whether we like to admit it or not there are examples that are not as clear cut as the issues of work or commerce. There is a great variance of opinion within the torah community...how stringent or how lenient one can be in the observance of a Torah compliant shabbat. Why would these issues not arise here in this community? Do you use electricity during the shabbat...some with good reason and with a plain and strict reading of the text would say that that is not in line with Torah observance.....for several reasons That list goes on and on. It is not just the obvious issues that we must concern ourselves with. We should and must discuss them but we must also understand that in some areas we are not going to come to an agreement. I am not willing to insult or berate my brothers and sisters over these issues and I am not going to cut off fellowship with them and YES I am going to carry on with them in the spirit of love and understanding...giving them the benefit of the doubt...that they indeed have made these decisions on how to observe the 7th day with the utmost gravity and prayer. For my part in perpetuating this Paulian discord that to this day even has the capability to divide those who are in agreement about the issue....I am truly sorry...all I can do is ask forgiveness. It seems to be this curse that he comes up even where he doesn't belong and in issues that he has no reason to disturb or weigh in on. Is it not bad enough when outsiders come here to abuse us and think that they are going to teach us a lesson...that we must also abuse each other in an atmosphere of paranoia...to think fo worst of each other....in essence to shoot first and ask questions later....have we learned nothing from our own recent troubles and from the outsiders who would strive to make us miserable?

Shalom
YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline cgb2  
#15 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 3:33:34 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
Mat 12:1 At that time יהושע went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. And His taught ones were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain, to eat.
Mat 12:2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your taught ones are doing what is not right to do on the Sabbath!”
Mat 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what Dawiḏ did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
Mat 12:4 how he went into the House of Elohim and ate the showbread which was not right for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 “Or did you not read in the Torah that on the Sabbath the priests in the Set-apart Place profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 “But I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the Set-apart Place.
Mat 12:7 “And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.
Mat 12:8 “For the Son of Aḏam is Master of the Sabbath.”
Mat 12:9 And having left there, He went into their congregation.
Mat 12:10 And see, there was a man having a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, “Is it right to heal on the Sabbath?” – so as to accuse Him.
Mat 12:11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, shall not take hold of it and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 “How much more worth is a man than a sheep! So it is right to do good on the Sabbath.”
Mat 12:13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and it was restored, as healthy as the other.
Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and took counsel against Him, so as to destroy Him.
Offline cgb2  
#16 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 3:43:21 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
Mar 2:23 And it came to be that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And as they went His taught ones began to pluck heads of grain,
Mar 2:24 and the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not right on the Sabbath?”
Mar 2:25 And He said to them, “Have you never read what Dawiḏ did when he had need and was hungry, he and those with him?
Mar 2:26 “How he went into the House of Elohim, while Eḇyathar was high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not right to eat, except for the priests, and he gave it also to those who were with him?”
Mar 2:27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 “So the Son of Aḏam is also Master of the Sabbath.”1 Footnote: 1Mt. 12:8.
Mar 3:1 And He went into the congregation again, and a man who had a withered hand was there.
Mar 3:2 And they were watching Him, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so as to accuse Him.
Mar 3:3 And He said to the man who had the withered hand, “Get up to the middle.”
Mar 3:4 And He said to them, “Is it right to do good on the Sabbath, or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.
Mar 3:5 And having looked around on them with displeasure, being grieved at the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as healthy as the other.
Mar 3:6 And the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how to destroy Him.
Offline cgb2  
#17 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 3:52:34 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
Luk 4:16 And He came to Natsareth, where He had been brought up. And according to His practice, He went into the congregation on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read...

Luk 6:1 And it came to be on a Sabbath that He went through grainfields, and His taught ones were plucking the heads of grain and were eating, rubbing them in the hands.
Luk 6:2 And some of the Pharisees said to them, “Why are you doing what is not right to do on the Sabbath?”
Luk 6:3 And יהושע answering them, said, “Have you not read what Dawiḏ did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him,
Luk 6:4 how he went into the House of Elohim, took and ate the showbread, and also gave some to those with him, which is not right for any but the priests to eat?”
Luk 6:5 And He said to them, “The Son of Aḏam is Master of the Sabbath.”1 Footnote: 1Mt. 12:8.
Luk 6:6 And it also came to be on another Sabbath, that He entered into the congregation and taught, and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
Luk 6:7 And the scribes and Pharisees were watching Him closely, whether He would heal on the Sabbath, for them to find an accusation against Him.
Luk 6:8 And He knew their thoughts, and said to the man who had the withered hand, “Rise and stand in the midst.” And he rose up and stood.
Luk 6:9 Then יהושע said to them, “I ask you, is it right to do good on the Sabbath, or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”
Luk 6:10 And looking around at them all, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he did so, and his hand was restored sound as the other.
Luk 6:11 But they were filled with folly, and were speaking with one another what they should do to יהושע.

Luk 13:10 And He was teaching in one of the congregations on the Sabbath,

Luk 13:14 But the ruler of the congregation, responding, much displeased that יהושע had healed on the Sabbath, said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men should work, so come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Luk 13:15 Then the Master answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loosen his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it?
Luk 13:16 “And this one, being a daughter of Aḇraham, whom Satan has bound, look, for eighteen years, should she not be loosened from this bond on the Sabbath?”
Luk 13:17 And when He said this, all His opponents were put to shame. And all the crowd rejoiced for all the splendid works being done by Him.

Luk 14:1 And it came to be, as He went into the house of one of the rulers of the Pharisees to eat bread on the Sabbath, that they were watching Him closely.
Luk 14:2 And see, there was a certain man before Him suffering from dropsy.
Luk 14:3 And יהושע responding, spoke to those learned in the Torah and the Pharisees, saying, “Is it right to heal on the Sabbath?”
Luk 14:4 But they were silent. So taking hold of him He healed him, and let him go.
Luk 14:5 And to them He said, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, shall not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”
Luk 14:6 And they were unable to answer Him regarding these matters.

Luk 23:55 And the women who had come with Him from Galil followed after, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And having returned, they prepared spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the command.

Offline cgb2  
#18 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 3:59:59 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
Joh 5:8 יהושע said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.”
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man became well, and he took up his bed and was walking. Now it was Sabbath on that day.
Joh 5:10 The Yehuḏim therefore said to him who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, it is not right for you to take up the bed.”
Joh 5:11 He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’ ”
Joh 5:12 Therefore they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?”
Joh 5:13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for יהושע had moved away, a crowd being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward יהושע found him in the Set-apart Place, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more,1 so that no worse matter befalls you.” Footnote: 1See 8:11.
Joh 5:15 The man went away, and told the Yehuḏim that it was יהושע who made him well.
Joh 5:16 And because of this the Yehuḏim persecuted יהושע, and were seeking to kill Him, because He was doing these healings on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But יהושע answered them, “My Father works until now, and I work.”
Joh 5:18 Because of this, then, the Yehuḏim were seeking all the more to kill Him, ‘because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He also called Elohim His own Father, making Himself equal with Elohim.’

Joh 7:19 “Did not Mosheh give you the Torah? Yet not one of you does the Torah!1 Why do you seek to kill Me?” Footnote: 1See Mt. 5:20.
Joh 7:20 The crowd answered and said, “You have a demon, who seeks to kill You?”
Joh 7:21 יהושע answered and said to them, “I did one work, and you all marvel.
Joh 7:22 “Because of this Mosheh has given you the circumcision – though it is not from Mosheh, but from the fathers – and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
Joh 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the Torah of Mosheh should not be broken, are you wroth with Me because I made a man entirely well on the Sabbath?
Joh 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Joh 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath when יהושע made the clay and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
Joh 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This Man is not from Elohim, because He does not guard the Sabbath.” Others said, “How is a man who is a sinner able to do such miracles?” And there was a division among them.....
Joh 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a wonder! You do not know where He is from, yet He opened my eyes!
Joh 9:31 “And we know that Elohim does not hear sinners. But if anyone fears Elohim and does His desire, He hears him.
Joh 9:32 “From of old it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind.
Joh 9:33 “If this One were not from Elohim, He could have done none at all.”
Joh 9:34 They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins – and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out.


Offline James  
#19 Posted : Monday, December 13, 2010 4:22:56 PM(UTC)
James
Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,615
Man
Location: Texas

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 215 time(s) in 149 post(s)
Well said Shalom, and shalom is what we need here, peace and restoration. We are not each others enemies, we are all friends, and family, and we should be open to discussion on all matters. It is the only way we can help each other. If we are afraid to ask questions because we are worried how others here will react, then this forum will fail, and crumble.

I don't point the finger of blame at anyone, I myself have on more than one occasion posted with a bad attitude, and probably did more harm than good. I also understand that in text based communication people can easily read in an infliction that was not intended by the author, and we must all take that into account. But again we must confront each other on our differences with reasoned argument, understanding and care.

I can't speak for everyone, but this forum means a lot to me, it is one of the few places where I can get intellectual conversion and discussion on Yah's word, and get fellowship with others who truly know and love Yah. I would hate to loose it, and the family I have found in it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Noel  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:51:24 AM(UTC)
Noel
Joined: 9/27/2009(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: UK

Well said James.
This forum is also important to me as I am currently experiencing the shunning by all my religious christian friends because they think I am in a cult. The one thing they won't do, however, is refute any of what I say in any informed way. But we feel a bit alone, and this forum is about the only place we can go right now.

Offline Daniel  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 5:25:16 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

Noel wrote:
they think I am in a cult.

You mean this is not a cult?!?!? I want my application fee back!

Noel wrote:
The one thing they won't do, however, is refute any of what I say in any informed way.


I (and others) consistently get this same (non)response from my religious friends (including a couple of ordained pastors).

It seems almost pathological.

Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline Richard  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:43:39 PM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
MadDog wrote:
It means that this man was warned on multiple times to stop.

Yet he continued.

Apparently he didn't care or disregarded Yahweh's law.

Don't think that this group of Jews were without law.

They had Judges and Juries and Witnesses.

According to the modern English translations it would appear
the Jews just randomly pointed a finger and condemmend a
man to death.

There is more to this story then meets the eye.


Really? Where is it recorded that the offender was warned multiple times not to gather sticks?
Offline Richard  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 5:00:00 PM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
Noel wrote:
Well said James.
This forum is also important to me as I am currently experiencing the shunning by all my religious christian friends because they think I am in a cult. The one thing they won't do, however, is refute any of what I say in any informed way. But we feel a bit alone, and this forum is about the only place we can go right now.


Noel, that is exactly where I am and what I am experiencing at this time. The only thing anyone can offer by way of rebuttal is a set of stock tried-and-found-false Churchianity answers with or without a bucketful of suspicions and accusations concerning myself and those to whose teachings I refer.

It really does get lonesome way out here on the lone prairie of social ostracism. The YY Forums provide me with a daily dose of friendship and familial contact, even if it is impersonal.

So you kids straigthen up and stop yer dad-blamed bickerin'! Don't make come in there!

Richard
Offline cgb2  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, December 14, 2010 6:06:53 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
flintface wrote:
It really does get lonesome way out here on the lone prairie of social ostracism. The YY Forums provide me with a daily dose of friendship and familial contact, even if it is impersonal.


I hear you. Been accused of all sorts of things: torah cult, legalism, and shunned without even trying to be abrasive. Just try my best to "love my brother" by correcting error as we're commanded, but usually turns ugly as they can't refute, reject the message and attack the messenger. Especially religious merchants who have the most to loose. Strong delusion. Well at least they don't torture and murder "heretics" here like the church did by the millions in the past (including Natsarim <Nazarene>). Seems if the world most popular religion shuns you you're likely on the narrow and unpopular path.

Luk 6:22 “Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall cut you off, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as wicked, for the sake of the Son of Aḏam.
Luk 6:23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for look, your reward is great in the heaven, for that is how their fathers treated the prophets.

I started to come out of 38 years of Xtianity about a year ago, felt tremendous peace on that "lone prarie", but still missed fellowship. Then about 6 months ago thru "amazing coincidence" found a small home fellowship closeby I regularly attend.
I'm into bluegrass (guitar) and love the summer festivals, but had took a stand with freinds that I could not, will not, attend GospelGrass this year. Lo and behold one in my fellowship was walking thru his neighborhood and ran into one of my Xtian freinds who let him have a email distribution list of pickers to invite to
http://www.besorahgrass.com/

I was one of them...
Offline MadDog  
#25 Posted : Wednesday, December 15, 2010 12:12:49 AM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

flintface wrote:
Really? Where is it recorded that the offender was warned multiple times not to gather sticks?


Okay, you got me. According to scripture, Yahweh pracitically and literally thundered his commandments to the Jews. I am taking
what I said in context in the following years that Yahweh gave his word and the enforcement thereto.

Apparently, it wasn't always a "death penalty" to gather sticks on the Sabbath. Although, it seemed that the Jews had
some inkling about Yahweh in general.

It was only AFTER Yahweh made a covenant with Moshe and the Jews that he started laying down the law so to speak. BEFORE the
covenant Yahweh had no problem in enforcing his word himself, by himself.

So unlike the man who gathered sticks on the sabbath, he had a far greater opportunity to the original source,
which we don't have today to reconcile his "crime."

I can see a great divide where James stated:

Quote:
I don't mind doing work around the house during the Sabbath, because I find much of it relaxing and enjoyable, and don't consider it work. If i were in the process of repainting my house I would feel no guilt about doing it on the Sabbath, because I find working on my house relaxing and enjoyable, and if I am doing it with my wife it is even more enjoyable, and I am spending time with my family, something I don't think Yah ever objects to.


Much different from when James stated this:

Quote:
In honesty, I observe the Sabbath much the same as you, I was mostly trying to facilitate a discussion which is why I played contrarian.
Offline Richard  
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:51:55 PM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
cgb2 wrote:
I'm into bluegrass (guitar) ...


I love BlueGrass. Still listen to it whenever I can. Even got to hear some of it live from time to time when we lived in Knoxville, TN.

I used to play guitar, just finger-picking chords and such. Never could master a Barre chord and gave up in frustration. I still have a relatively nice, inexpensive Fender acoustic, but I no longer even try to play. I get too sad at my inability to produce the sounds I want to. That's why my web site only has the lyrics to my songs and not the songs themselves.

I am jealous of you. :(

Richard
Offline cgb2  
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:49:30 PM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
flintface wrote:
I love BlueGrass. Still listen to it whenever I can. Even got to hear some of it live from time to time when we lived in Knoxville, TN.

I used to play guitar, just finger-picking chords and such. Never could master a Barre chord and gave up in frustration. I still have a relatively nice, inexpensive Fender acoustic, but I no longer even try to play. I get too sad at my inability to produce the sounds I want to. That's why my web site only has the lyrics to my songs and not the songs themselves.

I am jealous of you. :(

Richard


Well if you ever wanna try again, can't give it a fair shot until you get over the 3 song hurdle. After that it becomes fun and learning each new thing quicker. Most folks quit before then...it's too hard :^) Barre cords, what's that (says the bluegrass picker)? <grins>

Bluegrass jams and festival are quite frequent, might even be a weekly jam in your town. Lots around here in Southern Colorado. Also TablEdit and Amazing Slowdowner are great tools for wood-sheddin'....and remember Pratice makes Permanent.
Offline MadDog  
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:46:10 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

flintface wrote:
Really? Where is it recorded that the offender was warned multiple times not to gather sticks?


I take what I said back earlier. The man would have been warned multiple times, unless he was the equivalent of the
Torah's "bubble boy" or he lived in a secluded cave somewhere and just happened to miss the parting of the Red Sea,
Mount Horeb and Yahweh's ten sayings, the valley by the river Jordan where the entire Israeli nation finally made
the covenant in front of Moshe.

Not to mention having to hear and recite the Torah whenever they would go to the synagogue and upon Yahweh's
seven feasts. There were warnings every where.

It reminds me of the story of the male child of the Jewish woman and Egyptian husband who was also put to death
for blaspheming Yahweh and Noah's youngest son looking upon Noah's nakedness when he was passed out drunk.

My guess since we don't have the details is that there was something more going on then just "looking upon,"
"blaspheming," and "picking up sticks." Also Moshe issued the death sentence upon Yahweh's authority. Moshe
the guy who stood up to Yahweh to keep him from destroying Israel at Mt Horeb. Moshe who time and time again
pleaded for Yahweh to spare Israel. I really doubt Moshe would be so shallow and callous to put a man to death
for just picking up sticks.

My speculation is that this man didn't consider it work, just like James doesn't consider repainting his house
on the Sabbath to be work. He probably stood his ground that he wasn't doing anything wrong and maybe even tried to
convince others to do the same. He probably vowed to continue, despite of what should have been obvious that he was in
deep, deep trouble and having the opportunity to offer a sin offering and be made right. Again, my speculation.
Offline Richard  
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 9:23:10 PM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
Well, MadDog, since you put it like that, I have to agree with you. Still, the bottom line is that the man was eventually put to death for profaning the Sabbath. So we ought to listen carefully for the Spirit's reaction to what we're doing or thinking about doing. We change from moment to moment, but our Father does not, nor does His Word. So we gotta be careful, we have to look to our ways and consider them diligently.

Thanks for the expansion on the passage from Numbers. Good job!
Offline MadDog  
#30 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:51:17 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

flintface wrote:
So we ought to listen carefully for the Spirit's reaction to what we're doing or thinking about doing. We change from moment to moment, but our Father does not, nor does His Word. So we gotta be careful, we have to look to our ways and consider them diligently.


Well it is tragic on so many levels on what happened with this man picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

I mean can you imagine the great opportunity here to stand in front of Yahweh, Moshe and Aaron. The big dogs
(no disrespect whatsoever).

Especially Yahweh, can you place yourself in Yahweh's shoes or sandals or whatever it was they wore in those
days, contemplating judgment on this schmuck whose big beef against the BIG GUY was that he wanted to
prove Yahweh wrong about the Sabbath. And not just about the Sabbath, but about his ability to gather sticks
on the Sabbath.

If you are going to go up against the BIG GUY himself and be condemned by him, you might as well make it worthwhile.

Murder, rape, stealing; pretty much all the niceties that Mohammed did.

But for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.......COME ON MAN :(

Methinks this man was so full of pride that he stuck to his guns and forfeited his life.

Edited by user Friday, December 17, 2010 1:08:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline RidesWithYah  
#31 Posted : Friday, December 17, 2010 11:14:43 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Just because he lost his physical life to strike a warning and teach a lesson does not necessarily mean he was spiritually lost as well.
Strongly implied maybe, but not guaranteed.

On a related note...
I have an office job.
Most of my work is handling stuff on a computer -- emails, spreadsheets, databases.
So, is it wrong for me to use a computer on the Sabbath?
For reading and fellowshiping here, for reading Scripture?
Preparing a lesson, or a handout?

My feelings are mixed, so I'm open to opinions.
**Discuss**
Offline Royce  
#32 Posted : Friday, December 17, 2010 4:49:07 PM(UTC)
Royce
Joined: 9/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 225
Man
Location: USA

RidesWithYah wrote:
Just because he lost his physical life to strike a warning and teach a lesson does not necessarily mean he was spiritually lost as well.
Strongly implied maybe, but not guaranteed.

On a related note...
I have an office job.
Most of my work is handling stuff on a computer -- emails, spreadsheets, databases.
So, is it wrong for me to use a computer on the Sabbath?
For reading and fellowshiping here, for reading Scripture?
Preparing a lesson, or a handout?

My feelings are mixed, so I'm open to opinions.
**Discuss**

I think with the computer it depends on if you are using it for your normal work business or not. I mean you could split hairs and say ok so I am making someone work someplace by using the internet or turning on the light switch or any electrical product we have. I mean someone is on the clock someplace watching the grids and keeping it going. But its almost ridiculous to think Yahuwah wants us to sit in a dark room and not move or interact with anyone or anything and that is kinda where that is leading. I feel as long as you dont cause others to do any work or spend money or do your business in which you make a living or money on the Sabbath then you are good. I try to just not interact with the regular world you know. Just take it easy and enjoy my family and laugh and forget about the daily grind.
Offline MadDog  
#33 Posted : Friday, December 17, 2010 9:07:40 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Royce wrote:
I think with the computer it depends on if you are using it for your normal work business or not. I mean you could split hairs and say ok so I am making someone work someplace by using the internet or turning on the light switch or any electrical product we have. I mean someone is on the clock someplace watching the grids and keeping it going. But its almost ridiculous to think Yahuwah wants us to sit in a dark room and not move or interact with anyone or anything and that is kinda where that is leading. I feel as long as you dont cause others to do any work or spend money or do your business in which you make a living or money on the Sabbath then you are good. I try to just not interact with the regular world you know. Just take it easy and enjoy my family and laugh and forget about the daily grind.


I agree. Remember that a lot of today's Jews follow the rabbinical Talmud and you have to differentiate that from what the Torah says.

I mentioned before that I don't leave the house on the Sabbath except on the rare occasion to go out for a walk and get some fresh air. It really is that simple to not work on the Sabbath, at least for me.

RidesWithYah wrote:
Just because he lost his physical life to strike a warning and teach a lesson does not necessarily mean he was spiritually lost as well.
Strongly implied maybe, but not guaranteed.


How do you figure? I would think that being condemned to death by the BIG GUY himself is a very strong indication that this man was beyond spiritually lost.

Quote:
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?


Offline RidesWithYah  
#34 Posted : Saturday, December 18, 2010 2:36:15 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Quote:
How do you figure? I would think that being condemned to death by the BIG GUY himself is a very strong indication that this man was beyond spiritually lost.


Physical death is simply a transition.
Yah's children die physically every day, as part of His plan.
It's a normal part of the process.
Some of these deaths are used to teach others.
Read John 11. When Yahshua learned Lazarus was sick, He let him die.
Stayed where He was 2 days, rather than going and healing him.
(Or healing him remotely, as he did with the centurion's son.)

I'm not saying that was this case with this fellow, or even probable, just that it's possible.
Offline bigritchie  
#35 Posted : Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:32:39 AM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

My wife and I do no work at all on the Sabbath. We make all our meals the day before (Which my wife loves) and we clean the house up during the week so on the Sabbath day we do not have to worry about anything.

A divinely mandated day to be lazy and rest is awesome in my opinion. I suspect much mental illness and physical sickness in the world comes from people not giving their minds and bodies a rest once a week (my opinion of course)

Would I work or pick up sticks on the Sabbath? No. Why would I want to?

Would I work even if I considered it not work on the Sabbath? No

If my 90 year old widowed neighbor called me and needed my help on the Sabbath would I help her? In a heart-beat.
Offline MadDog  
#36 Posted : Saturday, December 18, 2010 11:27:54 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

RidesWithYah wrote:
Physical death is simply a transition.
Yah's children die physically every day, as part of His plan.
It's a normal part of the process.
Some of these deaths are used to teach others.
Read John 11. When Yahshua learned Lazarus was sick, He let him die.
Stayed where He was 2 days, rather than going and healing him.
(Or healing him remotely, as he did with the centurion's son.)

I'm not saying that was this case with this fellow, or even probable, just that it's possible.


I really hate to belabor this debate but I am pretty sure that we all know that we are mortal and will die someday. That's not the point I'm trying to make. If you or I were to die in an earthquake it doesn't mean it was Yahweh's will, it just means we died in a earthquake.

From what I've gathered from reading YY is that there are times when Yahweh personally intervenes in men's affairs (and without a doubt we'll know when he does) and other times when for lack of a better term "nature" happens. We die for many reasons, sickness, war, famine, etc. that isn't tied to Yahweh at all.

Quote:
as part of His plan.


So if Yahweh has a "master plan" then I need not worry. No matter what I do or say, Yahweh has already judged and I need not worry about being just or unjust.
If Yahweh was manipulating every gush of wind, every blade of grass, etc. then we would be without "free will." Yahweh does intervene when it's dire and more obviously whenever he wants.

Anyway, to your point Lazarus did die again didn't he? Yashua intervened yes, but Lazarus did eventually die again.

As for the guy picking up sticks on the sabbath, methinks you are giving him too much credit. In my mind I see a rare glimpse into Yahweh, both to be feared and respected.

Quote:
In Numbers 15:32-36, we see that Moses wrote:
While the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Yahuwah said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside of the camp.”

All the congregation brought him outside of the camp, and stoned him to death with stones; as Yahweh commanded Moses.


Before all the "God is Love" hippy types get up in a uproar, let's not forget that Yahweh did do far worse (from our perspective) with the flood of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah. He killed hundreds of thousands if not millions. Men, women and babies.

I know this is going to sound bad, but we can't just leave it all up to Yahweh.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#37 Posted : Sunday, December 19, 2010 3:02:40 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Quote:
I know this is going to sound bad, but we can't just leave it all up to Yahweh.


Not sure I understand what you mean here.
Could you explain?
Offline cgb2  
#38 Posted : Monday, December 20, 2010 2:57:11 AM(UTC)
cgb2
Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC)
Posts: 689
Location: Colorado

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 18 post(s)
bigritchie wrote:
My wife and I do no work at all on the Sabbath. We make all our meals the day before (Which my wife loves) and we clean the house up during the week so on the Sabbath day we do not have to worry about anything.

A divinely mandated day to be lazy and rest is awesome in my opinion. I suspect much mental illness and physical sickness in the world comes from people not giving their minds and bodies a rest once a week (my opinion of course)

Would I work or pick up sticks on the Sabbath? No. Why would I want to?

Would I work even if I considered it not work on the Sabbath? No

If my 90 year old widowed neighbor called me and needed my help on the Sabbath would I help her? In a heart-beat.


The way you explained this is awesome, and in it I've seen where I could do much better. My wife is not really on board with all this, although cooks clean, etc out of love for me. Keeping up the house, laundry,cooking, being hers to a greater portion was "fair", since she works part time and I full time, but the time Sabbath comes around things are backed up and she just can't rest with so much needing to be done. I'm going to make a greater effort to help with having the house clean, some meals ready, etc in time for Sabbath. When asked she confirmed she would rest, if that happened.
Offline Daniel  
#39 Posted : Monday, December 20, 2010 3:55:40 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

MadDog wrote:
I know this is going to sound bad, but we can't just leave it all up to Yahweh.



Sometimes we are part of YHVH's plan. I cite the case of David-"One-Shot-One-Kill"-bar-Jessie and Goliath-"Stone-Cold"-Philistine.

Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline issah  
#40 Posted : Monday, December 20, 2010 12:44:18 PM(UTC)
issah
Joined: 3/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 38
Woman
Location: Wisconsin

This topic prompted me to wonder whether the Hebrews were forced by the Egyptians to work on the Sabbath before the Exodus? I realize I could look for the answer myself but I figured I may as well ask as one of you surely already knows the answer. (I still have a lot of studying to do).

That said, I would like to thank everyone who posts to this forum. I don't often participate since I don't have much to contribute - at least not in comparison to most of you who post here. I mostly just have questions but I don’t feel it’s fair to always ask and bother with someone else’s time when I’m perfectly capable of doing my own homework. So, I would like to extend my gratitude because I learn much from you and it comforts me to know that people like you actually do exist somewhere out there in the midst of all the confusion. I am so grateful for Yada and KP, what they have written and made available, and for all of you who discuss. I learn a lot from all of you and it's nice to visit a site where people are having thoughtful discussion and debate without attacking and assaulting one another.

Offline RidesWithYah  
#41 Posted : Monday, December 20, 2010 4:46:52 PM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Working on the Sabbath in Egypt?

I don't recall that Scripture explicitly says so, but it's certainly implied.
Yah had to re-teach the Sabbath in the wilderness, by giving manna six days.
Some went out on the seventh day that first week, because they hadn't understood.
But He got them back on track pretty quickly.
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.