Great post :)

Here are my thoughts.

Firstly on the 4th day, the luminaries were not created, they became visible. There is a difference there.

Yah dosen't use a crescent moon - the start of the month is just the new moon. a crescent moon is a good few days into the month, the new moon is really just a slither of light. it's also just a great way to designate time. You also have to "watch" for the new moon, it is quite elusive - which is why I believe we have to "look" for it on Trumpets - as that is about being alert and keeping watch. It's also harder to spot a full moon, where as the new moon is either there or it isnt. Full moon can seem like a day before or a day after as sometimes it looks full

Passover always falls on a full moon - make of that what you will, coz I don't really know - light in the darkness springs to mind but I have not really thought about it that much :)

So no - I think the new moon is the start of the month - many religions take on the moon in some form or another... what do we do about all the religions that worship the full moon? Hinduism does as well as I think Feng Shui, it's not just the smaller moon phases, actually I think more worship the full moon than the crescent.

If it is translated as both first or beginnings and then as new moon later on but is the same word - you will probably find that it is just inconstancy in translation, but that would have to be verified lol

I think the issue I have is that Yah made them to be time pieces, and it is apparent that is what they made them for because of their clockwork like nature. The moon is the best way to gauge a month starting with the new moon, a slither of light visible in the early evening across the horizon of Jerusalem.

Arabic and Islam are very modern, they copy from Hebrew and Torah - talking the new moon is not surprising, as they also teach not to eat pigs - but does that instruction now become tainted for us? mixing light and darkness?

If we know Yahushua died at passover on 33CE then we can check the calendar out quite far back (by simply counting backwards in groups of 7 lol) and then through the other markers in History that KP talks about in FH. If we know when Yahushua died, we know when He was keeping the Sabbath and when the Feasts started - because we would know that Yah would not go with man's deception, He would just do it His own way with everyone else thinking He was mad around Him.

If the Calendar we have is incorrect then the Calendar Yahushua stuck to was incorrect to... and tbh that's enough evidence for me - I think if Yahushua was recorded as not observing a feast at the normal time, then there would be questions asked.

Unfortunatly man turns stuff into Gods, but that dosn't mean we have to throw everything out - because if we throw out the calendar we have now because of moon worship then we have nothing to date with and there is no way to work it out either. But if we accept that we have to stick to the things that Yah wants us to stick to, follow His instruction and not turn things into gods then we are fine.

Should we still celebrate Trumpets because the Jews celebrate the new year on it?

I think we have to be really careful not to go overboard with the whole pagan thing - if Yah was their first everything else is counterfeit, if something is created in place of Yah's instruction we also know it is counterfeit - basically we have to just stick to what He says :) It is more likely that the moon is such a good time piece that other cultures used it, and actually if they all came from common ancestors it would have been passed down through the families anyway.

Yah gives us them also to tell a story and yes I think the moon is a symbol for Satan anyway from what Yah said - but that does not mean it IS Satan, it is just a metaphor. Something that appears to be an object of light, but we know just reflects it and is really a ball of grey lol

So no - still I don't think it is incorrect, or wrong. The moon to us is just the moon, and nothing else, using it to start the month is just good time keeping - maybe KP could shed some more light on this too! :)

Thanks Ken - a fountain of knowledge as normal :)

Can you expand on or point to the evidence for the Sabbath reset. I know people who keep it this way although it seems illogical to me and I have not found anywhere that backs up a reset in Scripture, I understand that it is the idea behind the act that holds the significance but I still think that Yah probably would have said "At the new moon start counting 7 again" or something along those lines. He is always so specific. Plus if that were true the year 33CE might not be as accurate, because if Passover fell on the natural Sabbath, the rules of the reset would say it always falls on a natural Sabbath... mmmm

I like that Bridget, although being a man - I kinda get what you are saying, I think :D

you know every month it is going to happen, but sometimes it's not exactly on the same day - but you can feel it and so know anyway.

I see a lot of connection to that and the physicalness of the lunar observance of time, what I mean is there is still a need to "feel your way" for example with the start of the new year and the dancing barley - and whether or not the month starts depending if you see the new moon before sunset, especially at Trumpets... it's always going to happen around that time, but it does depend on the "sighting" rather than the clockwork almost clinical timekeeping side.

We always know when the new moon is going to happen thanks to previous observance, and with sciences tracking we can have it down to the second and elevation for the next 3000 years, but it's not about the science as to say, but more the watching, feeling - the chance of error or missing it or questioning whether or not it was there. Always that ebb and flow as to say..

Thanks for posting - it was very insightful :D

Firstly - for us in the good old Northern Hemisphere it is impossible to spot the new moon, as it is pretty much a crescent by the time we see it. The best place to really spot it is surprisingly... Jerusalem - the further south you are from Jerusalem the higher the new moon appears. Some places can see the new moon the day before you can in Jerusalem... lol

With that fact I kind of see that the clock for feasts should be set to Jerusalem time, it makes sense.

As for the acting out the Torah - it is something we can never do 100% completely, striving to do as much of it as possible because you love Yah I think is noble, but I think He would rather us understand it first... otherwise it's just another "act".

Not to pick on Israel - but I believe they are a Set Apart Nation given the burden of performing Torah to the rest of the world. If there is any set of people who should have been "doing" it, it was them for the simple fact of displaying the signs to the nations.

Now out of Israel and of course with the temple down - it's just impossible for me to keep Torah, but that dosen't mean we have to resign to the fact that we can't do any of it or learn from it.

I like to be as accurate as possible, especially on dates - for the simple reason I want to be as accurate as I can, or at least try haha. On everything else I like to make sure I understand, at least in part, why I am doing something before I do it.

For the symbolism counting over the acts thing - the problem is the symbolism is the majority of what is left. We no longer have access to the temple, and if we did there is no Levi Priesthood (that we can physically point out) and I am not blood Israelite (which I believe does make a difference - I have swung one way and the other on this, but at the moment am settled on there is a difference between Gentiles who respond and Israelites - but lets not get off topic lol).

So with all that stuff - lot's of Torah can not be kept, so it must be something deeper... Plus we know "works don't save a man"... Also people were being told off for not circumcising their hearts in Jeremiah... so I think that authority isn't really authority but more logical thought, We can't keep it, but we know it has a huge message... :D

For shelters, if I had leafy branches and somewhere outside to set them up, I think I would do that lol :D Inner city dwellings where the trees are quite sparse and not fast enough growing to give us a maintainable yearly "branches" - We have to do it inside with a bed sheet and some wool to hold up the corners... :S

In my personal opinion I think Yah is more interested in us gaining understanding and insight, and letting that change us inwardly, through the guidance of Mum, to become more upright whilst relying on Him to lift us up, instead of our own attempts at 100% strict observance. I could be wrong though!!

I just don't see the evidence as valid - also if you are using the full moon, it dosen't fit with feast observance, as far as I can see.

The Egyptians worshipped the moon in all of it's main phases anyway - it wasn't just the new moon, it started with the new moon at the beginning of the cycle but the "Filling of the Eye" or full moon was just as much a cause for worship as any. So maybe they got their practice from that whole system? Most other moon gods are worshipped and symbolised by all stages of phase...

More likely the ancestors of Egypt, coming from Noah's sons, would have observed the new moon and it was passed down through generations spanning out into different cultures where worship was started.

The new moon has always been the beginning of the cycle - the full moon the middle and the third quarter the end... it just works lol Spotting a full moon is really hard as you can't always judge it's roundness, but spotting the new moon is easy, as it is either there or it isn't.

So although I see your concern, I just don't think it holds water - and I hope you take time to consider these things. When I have looked into this subject most of the evidence given to me was well off balanced by over zealous pagan cleansing... We may not all be right, but a sounding board is always good to thrash ideas out :)

I can't see the forest for the trees!!

:D

When the Messiah was being arrested after Judas' betrayal, He said "Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour--when darkness reigns." Luke 22:53

This may be just symbolism, but it also may be both literal and symbolic. It makes sense to my admittedly simple mind, that when the injustice of lawless mankind extinguished the life of "Light of the world", His Light was full toward heaven as He fulfilled the just requirements of the law on man's behalf. "It is finished" (completed, fulfilled). (When the moon is dark toward earth it is full toward heaven.)

No one has really answered my initial question - why does there appear to be a difference in the concept of chodesh between what YHWH established in the first 5 books and the rest of the OC Scriptures? In my simple mind, I read YHWH's words "first" and "beginning" of chodesh as:

1. light, not darkness (Genesis 1, lesser light) - dispelling science's dark "new moon"

2. first (one, unity, one full unit, chief, top uppermost), beginning (head, first, top) - dispelling religion's sliver/crescent "new moon"


I tremble at His word (Isaiah 66:2) and don't want to be guilty of substituting darkness for light and light for darkness (Isaiah 5:20). Will you take the "veil" of tradition off and examine this subject honestly with me?

I don't believe so, simply because Yahweh has designated the start of His calendar at the new moon after the ripening of Barley.

As far as I'm aware the pagans based the start of their calendar year at the vernal equinox, which is the start of spring for the Northern hemisphere when the sun starts to make its return. Or at the new moon after the vernal equinox to start counting the months. There were few calendars around in ancient times as they all tried to work it out for themselves, and obviously some brought their gods into the picture.

I've picked up some interesting passages from the Book of Enoch, for example chapter 77:12-14 "12Uriel [an angel apparently] likewise showed me another regulation, when light is poured into the moon, how it is poured into it from the sun. 13All the time that the moon is in progress with its light, it is poured into it in the presence of the sun, until its light is in fourteen days completed in heaven. 14And when it is wholly extinguished, its light is consumed in heaven; and on the first day it is called the new moon, for on that day light is received into it." One thing to notice is that Enoch was told the light of the moon came from the sun, a reflection in other words. Also, the passage tells us the first day of the month is when the light of the sun first touches the moon.

Another passage of note it chapter 64:9b "Respecting the moons have they inquired, and they have known that the earth will perish with those who dwell upon it, (and that to these there will be no place of refuge for ever." Another translation goes "Because of the sorceries which they have searched out and learnt, the earth and those who dwell upon it will be destroyed". Now maybe I'm reading in between the lines here but it seems to be that pagans mixed studying the sun, moon and stars with sorcery and astrology. Something of which judgement is pronounced upon them.

Another passage reads "The course of the moon’s path to the righteous is light, but to sinners it is darkness; in the name of the Lord of spirits, who created a division between light and darkness, and, separating the spirits of men, strengthened the spirits of the righteous in the name of his own righteousness." (Chapter 41:6) Now maybe I'm reading out of context, but understanding the path of the moon in accordance with Yahweh's ways is good, but to sinners it is darkness because they have mixed their understanding of it to false gods.

I'm sorry for using the very much debated, and questionable, Book of Enoch but their are some surprising nuggets in it. The problem with the BoE in this case is that it doesn't seem to link the cycles of the moon to Yahweh's Feasts.

I usually tend to stay away from the BoE but I know there's tons of info in it regarding the cycles of the moon.


Sorry, can't help. I don't know the Scriptures in Hebrew, nor am I using software to help me verify it.


Is "chodesh" linked to "qodesh"? Are they ever used to illuminate each other and provide clarification. I think someone like KP could maybe answer that.



Yahweh didn't set the crescent moon as a light, but the moon in general as the lesser light, to help us keep track of the months and to help us understand exactly when He will fulfil His Word. The moon is just the moon, to turn it into a god or something that it's not is idolatrous.



What I say now is just speculation but it's possible Satan knew what Yahweh would do while the universe was being created. We don't know how much he knew, but it seems to me he knew a lot because before Yahshua was born there were already religions who have father, mother and child figures to represent their deities. Satan already tried to counterfeit God's plan before it really got under way, or before mankind figured out what Yahweh was saying.

One reason why I also think pagans used the sun, moon and stars to work out their calendar was because it was obviously they followed a pattern that was tied in with the seasons. Plus the moon has a uniform cycles, hence being used as a time-keeper for monthly cycles.

Also, scientists say the sun is 450,000 times brighter than the moon according to their scales, while Wiki sticks it at 398,359 times brighter. I also know the BoE uses the 1/7th scale for the moon's brightness compared to the sun.

Please feel free to tell me to "shove it" after I quoted the BoE. ;)

Yeah kp, I tend to not pay attention when reading, especially when short for time and having long posts to read first, it's something I'm guilty of. Thanks for repeating the word linkage for me.

The moon is apparently moving away at about 3.8cm a year, which puts it closer by about 230 meters going back at far as 6000 years ago, so not much in terms of distance. But this is obviously assuming the rate has remained the same and no other astronomical event has happened. So yeah, it still is worth mentioning, especially since Enoch was "eye-balling" it.

I'll try get a copy of the book you referred, or find an online version, even if it does have some strange and questionable science as I've been trying to figure out what happened with the long day of Joshua situation. The situation seems to indicate an astronomical, or natural, event of some sort in Joshua 10:11.

I have the same view of Enoch, there are some genuine nuggets of gold in it but feel much of it has been corrupted.

There is never any instruction anywhere to link the Sabbath to the moon's cycles in Torah (as far as I know), so everything we then say about it is speculation. When creating the instruction for the Sabbath Yah would have said Keep every 7th day starting from the first day in the month Set Apart. Yah is quite specific about things like that, and considering that Israel would have made 4000 rules of how to avoid breaking it too.

So no - he never established the Sabbath as the beginning of the month, I have friends who believe it is so - but other than peoples musings on the matter there isn't ever any evidence (as far as I can see) for it. I think the closest people get is things like Ezekiel 46 - but that specifies New Moons AND Sabbaths, and does not link the two.

If you were to set the Sabbath to the start of the month, you would not run in a 6+1 loop - you would be sometimes 9 days or 5 days depending on when the moon (for arguments sake - full or new) was sighted. This breaks a massive pattern that runs through Scripture, including the creation account and the time line set up with it.

Also if we say that Israel picked up the New Moon month start observance from their time in Babylon, that ended in 538BCE, (this is the place where most of their pagan influence crept in, and is the closest exile to the arrival of Yahushua). So when Yahushua arrives Israel is running on New Moon month time, not full moon month time. Which means that Yahushua did not die on the prescribed Passover of Scripture but either 14 days earlier or later depending on which way round it is. This means 2 things, either Yah's timing really dosen't mean anything and it's more the fact that it happened and was linked to Passover or Yah bent to mans prescription.

I really can't see the second happening, but if the first is true - the whole debate about full or new moon is a little redundant, because as long as we observe and understand - timing dosen't matter anyway...

If we also say this then Daniel who was Upright before Yah and was given the prophesy of Yahushua entering Jerusalem on that exact day, would also be out by 14 days. But, and if I remember correctly, Yah didn't give Daniel moons to go off, but just a lot of Maths. SO if the second example above is correct then Yah changed the rules and let man have the new moon month start instead of his own prescription.

Also because we have established the New Moon was observed by Israel at the time of Yahushua - and we take into account linking of the Sabbath to the New Moon - this also invalidates what was an awesome "coincidence" of having it all fall on a natural Sabbath that Yowbel year in 33CE. It could have been any year then, because if we start the month and sync the Sabbath to it 14 days in is always 2 lots of 7 and it's always there waiting, no matter if the moon is full or new.

The only people I see who preach this are people who really go overboard in trying to remove themselves from Israel's pagan influence - which I think is a good thing to do of course, but it can end up being too zealous. For example Yada believes that the feasts Passover, UB, FF run each and every year one after another, no matter where they come. This dosen't make sense to what Scripture says in my opinion and actually I think it says we have Passover - and UB begins then within the 7 days of UB there will be a natural Sabbath, the day after is FF. I think this one of the reasons UB is 7 days long too... but anyway I digress. The fact is sometimes people can be too quick to drop what the Pharisees or Rabbits did just because of who they were, when actually we should be looking past that to what the evidence presents.

It's kind of like the whole Paul thing (why did I bring this up here) - people leap on Paul before weighing up the actual evidence and accusations and passions fly high...

Yes the Pharisees were wrong most of the time - but blind squirrels find nuts to use the old Winn/Power-ism as to say and actually on date keeping - they are such sticklers for tradition and stubborn it wouldn't have changed, even if Yah had tried to change it!

Wow I don't half go on - sorry about that... LOL

Thank you James, for your time and efforts to get the forum in order.

I know that most here do not agree with the ‘arguments’ I’ve posted regarding the beginning of the month – the count to the feast days. But I truly see the feast days as the process of spiritual covenant renewal that YHWH has given us to bring us back into right relationship with Him. I see the monthly renewal of the moon as a picture of this process of spiritual covenant renewal with YHWH, and I see the ‘new moon’ beginning of the month as a deception, concealing the truth of the covenant renewal process. So, I share another ‘argument’ with you: New Moon Deception.
YHWH Bless You.
Karen