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Offline RobGuy  
#1 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2010 5:59:22 AM(UTC)
RobGuy
Joined: 6/21/2010(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Texas

Hey all,

I have been looking into Tzitzit the past couple of days. Should we wear them? I do not really know what the general opinion of them is on the forum, however, I do know that it is generally accepted here that eating pork and other non-biblical food is, at the very least, a very bad idea. In The Owners Manual, Mitzvot number 18, KP says: "Again, this is a sign through which Yahweh meant to convey an everlasting truth to the world, a sign the “children of Israel” alone were to bear."

However, looking at the wording of both passages, it seems the same audience was involved, or rather, spoken to.

"Speak to the sons of Israel, saying..." (Leviticus 11:2)

"Speak to the sons of Israel..." (Numbers 15:38)

Both times the word translated as "son" is "ben" which according to Strongs means:
1. son, grandson, child, member of a group
son, male child
grandson
children (pl. - male and female)
youth, young men (pl.)
young (of animals)
sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for un- righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
people (of a nation) (pl.)
of lifeless things, i.e. sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
a member of a guild, order, class

So, what is the distinction between the two commandments? Each was spoken to the children of Israel, which as a racial gentile, I do not belong to. So why one and not the other? It seems to me that we can't just pick and choose which to obey. But I dunno.

I don't have the market cornered on truth, so I defer to my wiser brethren in this. Thanks!
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2010 8:56:48 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Your question, RobGuy, gets to the very heart of the implementation of the Torah---and it's therefore critically important that we get to the bottom of it. I can't claim to be infallible either, of course, but I have spent enough time mulling over the Torah to at least have formed some opinions on the matter.

The way I've come to see it, Israel alone was charged with keeping the signs---among which wearing the tzitsit is an obvious example. But since that can still easily be done, let’s consider at the same time some “sign” commandments that can’t be kept in any literal sense today. These would include anything having to do with the duties of the priests or Levites, and especially the offering up of the Levitical sacrifices—a subject that consumes half the Torah. We can observe these (that is, we can examine them with an eye toward discovering what Yahweh meant to tell us through them), but we can’t do them, for Israel is in rebellion against Yahweh, and has therefore been precluded from performing what he commanded them to perform. It’s as if God told them to eat their vegetables, but they refused. So He has put them in “time out.” And those vegetables are still sitting there on the kitchen table, uneaten.

On the other hand (it seems) there are the “practical” commandments like not eating pork and mice, not murdering each other, not coveting or stealing each others’ stuff, and honoring our parents. Here is where the typical Christian viewpoint goes totally haywire, for the ekklesia tends to look at this as a buffet---taking the “laws” they agree with (like not committing adultery) and leaving those they don’t (like remembering the Sabbath and keeping it set-apart). It’s totally inconsistent, and illogical to a fault. Also sprinkled in there are all sorts of community or cultural things, like setting aside cities of refuge, leprosy and ritual purification laws, the ashes of red heifers and that thing in Numbers 5 about suspected infidelity---things that outside of eretz Israel have never been done, and with conflicting local laws in place, would be very hard to institute. (Try using the Torah’s method of dispensing justice to murderers in America, and see what happens. The victims’ families would all be on death row. Woof!)

So as a practical matter, how do I (as a gentile believer) approach the Torah? Feel free to disagree with my observations and conclusions, but here’s what I’m thinking:

1) Only Israel was commanded to perform the Torah.

2) From the very beginning, gentiles were invited to join Israel as a “mixed multitude,” but if they did, the Instructions applied to them as well.

3) On some level, all of the “sign” instructions have practical value.

4) On some level, all of the “practical” instructions have spiritual significance---they’re signs. (The dietary laws, for example, instruct us to be discerning about what to put into our lives.)

5) Therefore, I see no practical difference between our proper approach to the “sign” Instructions and the “practical” ones. They are all signs, and they are all commandments.

6) Generally speaking, I endeavor to perform the Instructions I can, and “observe” the rest. For example, I avoid pork (not because God told Israel not to eat it, but because I trust His advice), treat the Sabbath as a special day consecrated to Yahweh (though I express myself in worship whenever I feel like it), and so forth. I don’t wear a tsitzit, but I have no good reason for not doing so, even though nobody I’m likely to meet would have the foggiest idea what it means, or even what it is.

7) I realize that even now, having studied the Torah and having a reasonably good idea of what to do, I fail miserably at keeping my part of the bargain, no matter how hard I try.

8) I further realize that my shortcomings are permanently covered (which is what “atoned” means) by the shed blood of Yahshua the Messiah, fulfilling in ultimate perfection all of the blood sacrifices specified in the Torah. I’m thinking especially of the chata’t (or “sin” offering”---covering my lapses in behavior); the asham (or “trespass” offering---covering my lapses in holiness).

9) Yahweh forces no one to avail themselves of the Messiah’s sacrifice. We may choose, if we wish (and if we’re arrogant fools) to try to meet His standards---keep His Instructions---in our own strength. I happen to know (from long and bitter experience) that it can’t be done, which explains my great joy and eternal gratitude for Yahshua’s redemptive sacrifice on my behalf.

10) Hopefully, your father was a loving man, as mine was. If we understand that Yahweh patterned a human father’s role after His own character, we can begin to comprehend what He really expects of us. He knows we kids aren’t going to get everything right the first time---or even the tenth time. But He does insist that we trust Him and that we try to do what He asked of us. When our dad commanded us, saying “Don’t touch that---it’s hot,” he wasn’t doing it to impose his will upon us, curtail our freedoms, or grasp power for himself, but merely to save us from unnecessary pain. If we chose to disregard that commandment, we burned our disobedient little fingers. Yahweh’s instructions are just like that: they’re for our benefit, not His.

kp
Offline RidesWithYah  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:44:20 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Quote:
Generally speaking, I endeavor to perform the Instructions I can, and “observe” the rest. For example, I avoid pork (not because God told Israel not to eat it, but because I trust His advice), treat the Sabbath as a special day consecrated to Yahweh (though I express myself in worship whenever I feel like it), and so forth. I don’t wear a tsitzit, but I have no good reason for not doing so, even though nobody I’m likely to meet would have the foggiest idea what it means, or even what it is.


I'm pretty much with kp. My call to "understand and do" may be a little more than the average gentile's. I've long felt that "grafted in" meant "a part of", so the rules applied to me, too. But we recently found out my wife's maternal grandparents were both Jewish; meaning that I've got three little Israelites I'm responsible for, even if I'm not genetically Hebrew myself...

I don't wear tzitzit, but I have them where I see them several times a day. One's hanging from a frame in my office, along with a writeup including when Yah told us to wear them, how the "blue thread" was made with dye from a mollusk, that in strictest sense made the wearer unclean, and how Yahshua came "with healing in his wings" as the crowds reached up and grabbed his tzitzit. This has been a good conversation starter with several co-workers. I gave this same setup as gifts to friends at church at Tabernacles last year, and it went over really well; so well that the elder asked me to make some for him to give as gifts to some folks this year. (If it'll fit, I'll copy the text into this thread in another message.)

I've got one hanging from my rearview mirror, one over my door; and among the fringes on my motorcycle handlebars. Safe to say I see them everyday, even if they aren't quite a constant reminder.

In His Love,
RidesWithYah
Offline RidesWithYah  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 12:45:45 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Tzitzit
And Yahweh spake unto Moses, saying, “Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of Yahweh, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. I am Yahweh your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am Yahweh your God.” Numbers 15:37-41

Fringes on the garments were to be a reminder of Yahweh's commandments. But why must they include a single blue strand? Ancient Israelites had only one source of blue dye – it was extracted from a mollusk. In strictest sense, obeying the Torah by wearing tzitzit required becoming “unclean”, illustrating that we are ALL in need of redemption.
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Leviticus 11:10-11

As a Torah observant Jew, our Messiah, Yahshua, commonly called Jesus, wore tzitzit. The prophet Malachi predicted both his coming and his work:
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings. Malachi 4:2

But as he went the people thronged him. And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, came behind him, and touched the border of his garment (his tzitzit) and immediately her issue of blood stanched. And Yahshua said, “Who touched me?” When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, “Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?” And Yahshua said, “Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.” And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. And he said unto her, “Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.” Luke 8:42-48
This example is tied in the Ashkenazi style. In Hebrew, each letter is associated with a number. The groupings of knots “spell” Yahweh Echad. Echad is the Hebrew word which means “Unity”, and is (mis-) translated “Lord” in most English versions of the following verses. It's the same word used at the end of Genesis 2:24, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh (Unity).”

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Yahshua answered him, “The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Unity: And thou shalt love Yahweh thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' There is none other commandment greater than these.” And the scribe said unto him, “Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God, and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” And when Yahshua saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, “Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.” And no man after that durst ask him any question. Mark 12:28-34

Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Unity: And thou shalt love Yahweh thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:4-6

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Yahweh. Leviticus 19:18
Offline Richard  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:09:58 AM(UTC)
Richard
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I wear tassles strung through 4 of my belt loops because I do not wear a four-cornered garment. They do help me remember Whose I am and what He says.

I had never made the connection between the blue dye and our sinful state. Thank you for that!

Richard
Offline RobGuy  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:50:48 AM(UTC)
RobGuy
Joined: 6/21/2010(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Texas

Thank you for the replies everyone!

I think I will need some more time to chew on what you said about the signs part KP, but I think I'm beginning to understand the point you were driving at.

If anyone was curious, I think I will start wearing Tassels in the upcoming weeks, as soon as I get some.

But another question for those who wear them, how do you deal with wearing them at your work? For instance, I work in a restaurant, and we of course have a dress code. I don't know whether or not I will be allowed to wear them there or not. How do you deal with that situation? Have you noticed your bosses/places of employment having a negative attitude towards them or not? Thanks!
Offline Richard  
#7 Posted : Monday, July 5, 2010 9:40:16 AM(UTC)
Richard
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RobGuy wrote:

But another question for those who wear them, how do you deal with wearing them at your work? For instance, I work in a restaurant, and we of course have a dress code. I don't know whether or not I will be allowed to wear them there or not. How do you deal with that situation? Have you noticed your bosses/places of employment having a negative attitude towards them or not? Thanks!


RG,

Because I am retired, I cannot give you a "yes" or "no" answer. However, I believe that our Father is very gracious and would not hold it against you if your employer forbad the wearing of tassels at work. My justification for believing that comes from 2 Kings 5:1-19:

2 Kings 5:1-19 wrote:

Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the LORD had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he was a leper.

The Arameans had gone out in bands and had taken captive a little girl from the land of Israel; and she waited on Naaman's wife. She said to her mistress, "I wish that my master were with the prophet who is in Samaria! Then he would cure him of his leprosy."

Naaman went in and told his master, saying, "Thus and thus spoke the girl who is from the land of Israel."

Then the king of Aram said, "Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel."

He departed and took with him ten talents of silver and six thousand shekels of gold and ten changes of clothes. He brought the letter to the king of Israel, saying, "And now as this letter comes to you, behold, I have sent Naaman my servant to you, that you may cure him of his leprosy."

When the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his clothes and said, "Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man is sending word to me to cure a man of his leprosy? But consider now, and see how he is seeking a quarrel against me."

It happened when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, "Why have you torn your clothes? Now let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel."

So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha. Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean."

But Naaman was furious and went away and said, "Behold, I thought, 'He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of Yahuweh, his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.' Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?"

So he turned and went away in a rage. Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, "My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?"

So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean. When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said, "Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now."

But he said, "As Yahuweh lives, before whom I stand, I will take nothing."

And he urged him to take it, but he refused. Naaman said, "If not, please let your servant at least be given two mules' load of earth; for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering nor will he sacrifice to other gods, but to Yahuweh. In this matter may Yahuweh pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, Yahuweh pardon your servant in this matter."

He said to him, "Go in peace." ...


Naaman was fearful of Yahuweh's reaction to his having to bow the knee to a false god. How was the prophet of Yahuweh instructed to answer him? "Go in peace." To me, that was like saying, "Don't worry about it. Yahuweh looks not at the outward appearance, but at the heart."

RG, I don't always wear my tassels, but I don't have a problem with someone questioning me about them. So far, though, no one has. As for getting a set, make 'em yourself! There are no instructions for making them other than they must each contain a blue thread. That's it. There is a video at EliYah's web site showing his daughter making tassels according to a certain tradition. She uses the blue thread to make wraps around the other threads so that the number of times each wrap encircles the other threads represents one of the letters, YHWH. For instance, the first wrap encircles the other threads 10 times because Yod is the 10th letter in the Hebrew alphabet, the second wrap 5 times to represent Hey, and so on. Step by step instructions may be found here. But again, there are no instructions in the Scriptures regarding how to make the tassels, other than they must each have a blue thread.

Hope this helps, brother.

Richard
Offline bigritchie  
#8 Posted : Monday, July 5, 2010 12:27:30 PM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

My family and I wear them. Proudly I might add.

And if you live in America your employer cannot legally discriminate against you for wearing them.

As for any argument that would say "well that is for Israel", I would say, "That is who you are grafted into".

"Wear Tzitzits" = Yes Sir!

(By the way, I should add, I owned a restaurant before I retired, so when I say they cannot discriminate against you, I know what I am talking about, barring a Health food issue or something from the health department, but you could always tuck them in if you needed too)
Offline cgb2  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:40:51 AM(UTC)
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While at Besorahgrass, I met some people who have a weekly fellowship in close proximity to me. I was delighted on my first visit, that the host had made 4 of them for me. I figure that aside from the potential to strike up a conversation and share the good news from the very few who would ask....that anyone who already knew what they mean (and displayed them too) is likely someone you'd like to meet. Finding fellowship can be difficult.

In talking further to the new freind who made them for me, he told me a story about a prison guard he knew. They tried to tell him he couldn't wear them while on duty, to which he replied "You can only have them if taken off my dead corpse". They didn't press the issue any further.
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