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Offline Richard  
#1 Posted : Saturday, May 29, 2010 9:16:32 AM(UTC)
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"Worship Yahuweh in the beauty of set-apartness."

According to Strong and BDB, the word translated as "worship" in this verse is "shachah" and means to bow down, to prostate oneself. My question is, why would Dawid suggest we do something which Yahuweh finds undesireable?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Saturday, May 29, 2010 10:13:12 AM(UTC)
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Interestingly the whole little phrase ends with:

"tremble before him, all the earth"

As we know - bowing down is a sign of judgement and people will bow before Yah - heck if some part of Him appeared in the room now I would be on my face lol

But I think the subject being "everyone" is important. I believe Yah only finds it uncomfortable if it is people He knows, if you get what I mean. He is still "the King"... It is undesirable for His close family to be down on their faces, but I would buy the guy who can stand in His presence (before you are told to stand) a beer!

So I am going for the fact that everyone in their fleshiness and the presence of Yah has a pretty much automatic "Duck and Cover" reaction, and especially those who do not know Him.
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Offline James  
#3 Posted : Saturday, May 29, 2010 12:47:02 PM(UTC)
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interesting you bring this up now flintface. I spent the better part of yesterday working on translating Chapter 22 of Genesis, and most of that contemplating how I should render verse 5, namely the very same word used in Psalm 96:9, which is usually translated as worship. The word in question in Gen 22:5 is נִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה nistahawe in psalm 96:9 the word is הִשְׁתַּחֲווּ histahawu, which is the same word, but in second person and masculine. So we are dealing with the same root. According to Logos the root is the root as חוה chawah or שָׁחָה Shachah. Chawah which is defined as bow down, prostrate oneself, i.e., take a stance of bowing low in an act. of respect or honor, but not necessarily worship of deity, and shachah which is defined as you have already pointed out as bow down. Chawah also being the name of the first woman and meaning life giver. I decided to render the verse as:

‘Abraham said to his young men (na’ar – young male children or teens, lost sheep who have strayed), ‘You stay (yasab - settle down and have a seat) here (poh) with (‘im) the donkey. The boy (na’ar) and I will walk (halak) up to (‘ad - and exist eternally) there and bow as a sign of honor and respect before the life giver [i.e. Yahuweh] (chawah ) and return restored (suwb - come back changed and renewed) to you.’

And I put in a foot note explaining why.

Yada had rendered the verse in the Mowriyah chapter as:

Abraham said to his young men(na’ar – wayward sheep), ‘You stay (yasab – settle down and have a seat) here(poh) with (‘im) the donkey. The boy (na’ar) and I will walk (halak) up to (‘ad – and exist eternally) there with our burdens (sahah – weighed down, anxious
and worried) and then return restored (suwb – come back changed and renewed) to you.’

When I emailed him and asked him about where and why he choose to use sahah he replied with a complete rewrite and commentary on that portion of the chapter.

The overriding message of this verse is that by walking with God, Abraham would walk forever, renewed and restored. “Abraham (‘Abraham – Merciful and Forgiving Father) said to his young men (na’ar – adolescent servants who are prone to being tossed to and fro), ‘You stay (yasab – settle down and have a seat) here (poh) with (‘im) the donkey (hamowr – male ass). The boy (na’ar) and I (‘any) will walk (halak) as far as (‘ad – until) there (koh), and we will show our respect and reverence (sahah – we will relinquish our arrogant self reliance) and then return restored (suwb – come back changed and renewed) to you.’” (Genesis 22:5)

Many translators want the verb sahah, vocalized by Strong’s (7812) as shachah, to be rendered in the highly uncommon hithtafel stem (as hawah or chawah), prompting them to ignore the shin at the beginning of the word. But sahah isn’t necessarily correct either because it ignores the waw in the midst of the verb. Unfortunately however, this dispute is hard to resolve because this passage isn’t extant in the Dead Sea Scrolls, leaving us with nothing older or better than the 11th century Masoretic Text.

While these verbs are related, and are used in Yasha’yahu to depict those who have opposed Yahweh ultimately “bowing down” before Him in judgment, that is not all they convey. And yet sahah is translated “worship” a total of seventy-eight times in English bibles. That of course is because in the hishtafel stem it means “to bow down or to prostrate oneself,” and religious clerics see these things as being synonymous. But it is clear from this text that neither Abraham nor Yishaq worshiped, bowed down, or prostrated themselves on Mount Mowriyah. And since the word also conveys the notion of “demonstrating one’s respect and reverence,” as well as “relinquishing an arrogant and self-reliant attitude,” I have rendered it as such because these characteristics fit the narrative.

Further, considering chawah, we discover that it also means “to honor, to show respect and reverence,” in addition to “bowing down and prostrating oneself,” providing us with the same translational options available with sahah. Our lexicons tell us that chawah is invocative of “showing one’s allegiance by demonstrating that you see them as being worthy of respect.” As such, chawah helps illuminate the meaning behind Yahweh’s Commandment “to honor our Heavenly Father and Spiritual Mother.”

But that is not all. A chawah is a “tent settlement and a protective enclosure where families live permanently,” and thus it is invocative of Sukah—of camping out forever with Yahweh around this very same mountain. And Chawah, meaning “source of life,” is the name Yahweh gave to Adam’s wife in the protected and enclosed Garden in Eden, demonstrating that this story is focused on “the Source of Life,” and being born anew by way of our Spiritual Mother. Moreover, as a verb, chawah means: “to announce, to display, and to explain something using words.” The word picture Yahweh is painting in this account of Abraham (the Merciful Father) on Mount Mowryah (to Revere Yah) explains the purpose and timing of Pesach – Passover, whereby our Merciful Father provided the doorway to eternal life for those who revere Him and respect His Way.

Before we press on, please pause long enough to ponder the full import of suwb, translated above as “return restored.” It affirms the most appropriate designation of sahah, and the full and primary meaning of chawah. Those who come to revere and respect the provision Yahweh, as our Merciful Father, is providing on Mount Mowryah will “suwb – return,” “suwb – restored and renewed.” And that is because they “suwb – change their direction, change their perspective, change their thinking and attitude.”


So there is a long answer. A Short answer is since the word can simply mean bow in honor and respect, and can have nothing to do with worship, I have no issue with it, and worship is really an inappropriate way to translate it.

I'm with Rob on this as well, I don't know about you, but if I see Yahuweh i'm probably going to bow down before him, and then as soon as he tells me not to, I'm going to stand up and run into his arms to give him a hug.
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#4 Posted : Saturday, May 29, 2010 8:43:32 PM(UTC)
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James wrote:

So there is a long answer. A Short answer is since the word can simply mean bow in honor and respect, and can have nothing to do with worship, I have no issue with it, and worship is really an inappropriate way to translate it.


Worship is also very relative to who you are. What I mean by that is depending in what religion you were brought up you have different ideas of worship - so for example as a Christian I never saw worship as an act of bowing down but more praise I suppose - maybe that was because of how I was told worship was. In other religions/sects it can mean anything from human sacrifice to hugging a tree...

So worship is definitely not going to get the idea across for sure, as it is another word that has become religious - like holy for example.
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Offline Richard  
#5 Posted : Sunday, May 30, 2010 1:35:24 AM(UTC)
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Thank you both for the thoughtful insights and answers. I'm with you both: if Yahuweh were to walk into this room right now, I would definitely bow down with my face to the floor, and I would remain that way until He spoke, encouraging me to stand up. However, I wouldn't run into His arms until He opened them wide and smiled. That's probably my conscience telling me to err on the side of caution. It's like the fellow Yahushua spoke about, who took a seat at the end of the table and waited to be honored by the host instead of displaying his arrogance by taking a chief seat from the get-go. (Please do not infer that I am saying one must be arrogant to run into Yahuweh's arms unbidden. I am speaking from my own perspective as one who has been despicably wretched in his lifetime and has serious fears about his acceptability.)

Richard McCord
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Sunday, May 30, 2010 2:25:27 AM(UTC)
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yea I agree Richard. We are His kids - but He is still our Dad, a loving but firm Father who is secure in who He is. A wise and disciplined child wouldn't want to risk a clip round the ear.
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Offline James  
#7 Posted : Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:42:19 AM(UTC)
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Good point Richard. I gues I would stand and then wait for him to tell me to come before I gave him a hug, but it is what I most want to do.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline lassie1865  
#8 Posted : Saturday, July 23, 2011 7:19:12 AM(UTC)
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Thank you for all your work and info. Doesn't "worship" come from the old English word "worthship"?
Offline VinceB.  
#9 Posted : Saturday, July 23, 2011 8:24:02 AM(UTC)
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Who was Yahowsha', none other than Yahowah's diminished Set-Apart corporeal manifestation of Himself (protecting us so we're not instantly vaporized if He were to manifest Himself in all His fullness while we're still existing in these mortal bodies)...the biographical eyewitness accounts, *if they can be trusted, show those who were His own, wasted no time racing up to Him, and embracing Him...I don't see anyone waiting to be invited to go on up and love on Dad - perhaps for the sake of safety there'd be some order so we're not tripping all over each other trying to just "touch the hem of His garment", as it were...if He were to walk into the room now, our initial response should be to do as all children do who are happy to see their dad, run up and give Him a big hug and a kiss on the cheek for starters. We forget, I guess because most here are grown-ups, but we're His children, and as His children we'll do what children do naturally without thinking about it - rather, will be spontaneous over flowing with much heart-felt emotions, and it most certainly won't be a scripted or rehearsed before hand.




*If it can be trusted, meaning: Yah spoke Hebrew and Aramaic, His eyewitnesses spoke read and understood Hebrew and Aramaic - and yet, conveniently, perhaps to bolster Paul's junk, everything Yah spoke and said during His first advent comes to us by way of Greek which I have serious problems with (the N.T. coming to us in the Greek facilitates the raising up of Pauline Doctrines, raises up the RCC, tears down the exclusivity of the Towrah alone to save us etc)...I like what Koos wrote in his email to friends (paraphrasing) the Word of God consists exclusively as the Towrah Prophets and Psalms - the very Word of God that existed when Yah as Yahowsha' walked the earth as Ma'aseyah Implement of Yah saving us - is the Word of God and we're not to add or take away from that.


HWHY
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