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Offline J&M  
#1 Posted : Saturday, May 22, 2010 9:34:08 PM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

In Genesis 3 there is a description of the interaction between Adam, Chavah (Eve) and the serpent (nakash) with reference to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. YHWH had warned Adam that eating of the fruit of the tree would bring death to him. Adam was, at this time connected to YHWH through the Tree of Life in his spiritual life, and to the tree of knowledge of good and evil in his physical life (hence the two deaths in Gen 2 v 17 – “dying you will die”). To eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evils severs the connection to the Tree of Life and transfers it to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The Tree of life is in the Spiritual realm inhabited by YHWH, the tree of knowledge of good and evil is in the physical realm and is thus cut off from YHWH.

Someone had passed YHWH’s warning on to Chavah, but not quite accurately, YHWH told Adam he must not EAT of the fruit, Chavah tells the serpent that she must not TOUCH the tree. The serpent could therefore demonstrate to Chavah the ‘fallibility’ of YHWH by touching the touching the tree and not being struck dead. We are not told how Chavah got the mis-information, but by default, we must assume that it came from Adam.

Chavah is basically ‘tricked’ into eating the forbidden fruit, however, it is not really quite that simple because Chavah also wants to be as YHWH. She wants to be in command of her own ‘knowledge of good and evil’ not relying on that of YHWH. Knowledge is the key word here, and this is the play that the adversary is making.

YHWH is the creator and His knowledge is infinite, the knowledge that the serpent is offering Chavah is a knowledge that is based only upon her physical senses, but he does not tell Chavah this and hence the deception.

Chavah has access to YHWH’s knowledge, but in this instance she believes the serpent, omitting to trust and rely on YHWH. So, trusting the apparent knowledge of the serpent, he having demonstrated (by touching the tree) to her that YHWH was ‘keeping her in the dark’ about the real nature of the tree, Eve eats of the fruit and is irrevocably changed.

Adam also has access to YHWH’s knowledge, but we must assume that, since he knew what YHWH really said about the tree, he desired his own ‘godship’ more than that of YHWH. He sees that Chavah is changed, and did not instantly ‘die’, so he makes a calculated decision to trust and rely on the serpents knowledge, not that knowledge imparted to him by YHWH.

The ability to judge between right and wrong (good and evil) is a function of a ‘god’, in human terms this is obfuscated because ‘good and evil’ becomes a rather arbitrary view based on a ‘consensus’ of mankind’s physical ‘wisdom’ and his inherited ‘culture’.

For an example of this we must look at Rivka (Rebeccah) who ‘fell off her camel’ when she saw Yitzac (Isaac), He was in his thirties, she was about 14. They immediately (and apparently mutually) consummated their union. In this country, at this time, Yitzac would be regarded as a criminal and locked up in gaol for ‘statutory rape’.

YHWH’s knowledge of Good and Evil does not change, but mankind’s knowledge of good and evil is relative to his current physical circumstances.

So Adam and Chavah become ‘gods’ of the ‘physical’ realm with their knowledge of godship (good and evil) tied to physical senses (“your eyes will be opened”) .
When YHWH comes ‘looking’ for them in the spiritual (“the breath of the day”) realm, they can only hear him, they cannot see him and they hide. YHWH finds them and confronts them.

Chavah confesses and takes personal responsibility for her actions (“I was beguiled by the serpent”).

Adam evades personal responsibility, and in doing so sets up the first religion (“She did it, the woman You gave me”).
Religion is any contrivance set up to enable mankind to avoid taking personal responsibility, before YHWH, for his actions, especially those where, by using his own ‘godship’ he breaks the first commandment.

We too must make Chavah’s confession before we go through the blood drenched portal that is pesach (Passover). We too must take personal responsibility for our own actions before YHWH, if not, then we are in religion.
I was beguiled by the world, I have put my ‘godship’ before that of YHWH, I have broken the first commandment, I have broken many of YHWH’s commandments.
Offline cgb2  
#2 Posted : Sunday, May 23, 2010 5:00:04 AM(UTC)
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Awesome insight.

On another tangent, and having once been believed "young earth". With "young earth" teaching perfect universe, no death and decay before the fall of man, I'm curious whether the tree of life could also have been physical?
That is plants, animals,etc even before the fall were subject to death, but in the garden Adam and Chavah eating from the tree of life would have been immortal. Note that after being expelled from the garden they were specifically blocked access to the tree of life, "lest they live forever".
Offline J&M  
#3 Posted : Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:57:24 AM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

Read it carefully, only Adam is excluded from the Garden.....

But I expect Chavah, who is 'ruled' over by her husband stayed out, or maybe went in occasionally to get some of that special 'seed'
Offline Deborah  
#4 Posted : Sunday, May 30, 2010 1:25:07 PM(UTC)
Deborah
Joined: 5/28/2010(UTC)
Posts: 9
Woman
Location: NSW Australia


I'm new here so I'm still navigating my way around the Forum.

Just got to read this post and have to agree with cgb2 - awesome insight!
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:04:09 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Hey, Deborah, welcome to the forum. You're not still hanging out with Barak, are you?

Sorry, Biblical humor... Judges 4

kp
Offline Heretic Steve  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:14:55 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

Chavvah deliberately taught deception. Does this mean that she is lost even though Adam is not, (he being a victim and her a victimizer)?
If not us, who? If not now, when?
Offline MadDog  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:26:37 PM(UTC)
MadDog
Joined: 6/19/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Man
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Originally Posted by: J& Go to Quoted Post
Chavah confesses and takes personal responsibility for her actions (“I was beguiled by the serpent”).


Sounds like Chavah was passing the blame just like Adam. I don't see her taking personal responsibility at all since she is declaring to have been beguiled by the serpent.

I've often wondered what the Tree of Life could be and after reading YY, even though I have nothing to back my theory up via translation, this is what I think. The Tree of Life was Yahshua, an intertwined prophecy that could be found in the stories of Abraham about to sacrifice Isaac and then after being told not to finds a male ram caught in the thistles of a brush (an image of Yahshua in a thorn crown) and Moses lifting up the serpent on pole so the Israelites who were bitten by vipers (symbol of sin) will be saved the very thing that is causing them to die.

So, in order to give Adam and Chavah "free will" YHWH needed for them be tempted and to either succeed or fail. To our determinate, they failed, but YHWH had already provided the redemption (i.e. the Tree of Life which is Yahshua because he is the I AM). From YHWH's perspective his sacrifice had already been done. YHWH let the serpent into the garden, he let Adam and Chavah choose, and BECAUSE HE LET IT HAPPEN HE PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS.

Why would YHWH do this? Because he wanted children. Because he wanted companionship. And unlike the malaki, YHWH had given us the ability to choose. And out of the billions of people who ever lived only a few would Yada YHWH because they choose from their own free will to walk with YHWH.
Offline Kelly and Shasta  
#8 Posted : Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:06:21 PM(UTC)
Kelly and Shasta
Joined: 3/29/2010(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: Connecticut

J&M-

Your post was excellent. The material is novel and I've been thinking about the relevance of Genesis all afternoon.

I'm in the process of rereading the Torah and copying all the laws so I can understand them more deeply. I'm not too far along, but I noticed in 5:2 the following:

ב זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה, בְּרָאָם; וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם, וַיִּקְרָא אֶת-שְׁמָם אָדָם, בְּיוֹם, הִבָּרְאָם. 2 male and female created He them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Offline J&M  
#9 Posted : Saturday, July 3, 2010 2:58:20 AM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

To understand the woman's confession you must also understand that there were several 'knowledges' of good and evil at work here.

In the first scenario, there is YHWH's knowledge and the serpents knowledge, the woman has access to them both. She chooses the wrong one and she knows it.

When confronted by YHWH, she is not blaming the serpent, she is confessing to having heeded the serpent's knowledge of good and evil and put it before that of YHWH. In effect she says "the serpent told me what I wanted to hear and I believed him instead of believing YOU"

It is very easy for me to blame Adam for my fall. and the world blames Chavah for the fall of Adam.

But the fall in itself is relatively insignificant, it is the differing attitudes of the man and the woman which are important here.

The man blames everybody but himself - he has missed the point

The woman understands exactly what has happened, she knows that her crime was to believe the serpent instead of YHWH. To this she confesses and is forgiven, but the man remains unforgiven and his labours are subsequently cursed.

NOW FORGET THE SEX, it is not relevant

I, whether I am male or female, have inherited the man's curse from my (physical) father. In order to release myself from this curse I too must understand and confess that I too have believed a serpent rather than YHWH.

Male dominated religion has spent much energy in trying to make the woman responsible for the fall, but it is most significant that the redemption comes from the woman's seed not the man's and that the OT scriptures blame the man not the woman (Paul seems to differ here).

We go through the pesach portal in the knowlege that a man born only of a woman (thus he did not inherit Adams curse) and was tortured and killed by that same serpent's knowledge of good and evil (in the form of religion), so that our confession of having participated in the fall may be confirmed and reversed, and the curse lifted. Thus is the head of the serpent crushed everytime someone enters the portal.


Offline kp  
#10 Posted : Saturday, July 3, 2010 3:14:23 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

J&M reminded me of a salient bit in The Owner's Manual:

Quote:
(617) Heed God, not people. “Then to Adam He [Yahweh] said, ‘Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, “You shall not eat of it,” cursed is the ground for your sake. In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit. And now Adam had a second choice to make, even tougher than the first one (to eat or not to eat). Now he had to choose between abandoning his wife—leaving her alone to face an unknown fate—and disobeying a clear command of God. It was the original lose-lose scenario, as far as Adam could see. He knew Yahweh’s instruction hadn’t been a mere “suggestion.” The verb “commanded” (Hebrew: tsawah) means “ordered or decreed with force and authority.” One can’t be sure, but I get the feeling that Adam finally chose to eat the fruit not because he wanted it, but because his beloved wife had asked him to. Thus Yahweh’s primary point in chastising Adam was that he had “heeded” (shama—to hear and obey, to consent, to yield to) the voice of his wife instead of the voice of God.

We need to remember that Eve meant no harm. But never having been exposed to the virus of evil, she had no natural defense against it, and was therefore easily deceived. The truth is, our best intentions are of no consequence when compared with the word of Yahweh. Sincerity of opinion, pure motives, and human intellect are of no weight when measured against God’s precepts. Written between the lines here is the Bible’s first warning against practicing religion in lieu of cultivating a relationship with Yahweh. We are not to heed even our most trusted and loving companions if what they’re telling us is contrary to God’s word. (And all the more so with self-serving teachers harboring transparent satanic agendas.) The rub is, in order to follow this precept, we need to actually know what God’s Word says. Yahweh declares, and it bears repeating, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6)

Note also that choosing to heed the word of man (or woman) over God’s instructions carries a penalty. As with Chavvah, the consequence to be endured by Adam was not some evil punishment dreamed up by an angry and vengeful God in order to “get back at him” for screwing up. Rather, it was the natural outcome of choosing to trust something other than Yahweh. In the paradise of Eden, food was provided and predators (excuse the snake) were kept at bay. But (as we shall see) Yahweh’s love for Adam forced Him to evict him from Eden, from the place of provision and protection, to precisely what Adam’s choice had ever-so-eloquently declared that he wanted: a world where he could be self-sufficient.

This attitude is still evident today in mankind’s insistence on practicing religion instead of following Yahweh. By doing so, we are saying, We must toil all the days of our life to make ourselves worthy of God’s love. Dealing with the thorns and thistles of life are a penance we perform to earn our place in heaven. God will surely be impressed when he sees the sweat of our brow. Meanwhile, Yahweh is shaking His head and saying (and I paraphrase), “What’re you thinkin’? I gave you Eden to live in, you morons. If I wanted you to work and suffer to earn my love, I wouldn’t have given you all that low-hanging fruit. And let’s be honest, guys: when you sweat, you stink.”


kp
Offline Bridget  
#11 Posted : Friday, July 16, 2010 12:42:51 PM(UTC)
Bridget
Joined: 12/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 165
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Location: USA

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Quote:
Male dominated religion has spent much energy in trying to make
..........


finish the sentence however you want......This is truth and it is so sad. For both men and for women.
You tell a man he is superior and he is hampered.
You tell a woman that she is inferior and she is hampered.

There are religions that profess the opposite...'female power' and whatnot...
Whichever way you lean....You block truth and you cause harm...

Whatever the religion, whatever the way, you tell a person, or treat them....as inferior...because of their gender, you harm them...
and you lie to yourself and you lie to them...and you harm yourself.

I'm just sayin'

:)
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