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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#1 Posted : Sunday, May 9, 2010 12:14:50 PM(UTC)
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Ok so we were having a little Shabbatical (bwahaha) meeting on Friday night where we are going through Genesis - got to Noah - (Gen 7) and something struck me, and no it was not Jude or Swalchy...

Water... yes I know it's quite a big picture of stuff - but out of all of the elements Yah could have used to destroy the people he chose water... why is that? We made links to submersion in water and such and that, and the washing away of things... but Noah wasn't submerged it rode on top of the water - yes he was already seen as upright in Yah's eyes but still seems to be a broken picture to me...

Now it also came to my attention that Ark and Ark are 2 different words in Hebrew. Noah's Ark is a tebah (quick ref: Strongs 8392) and the Ark of the cov, which you would think would be the same word, is ’arown (quick ref 727).

From completely different roots as well of course.

This quick word check revealed something else interesting and possibly linkish - Noah's Ark and Moses Basket are both "tebah" (basic meaning vessel or basket) - but that wasn't the picture that completely stopped me there it was the fact that both men were spared, saved, rescued by being floated away on water.

Is this just coincidence? Is Yah just reusing old material in saving Moses in the same kind of way - or is there something interesting about floating to safety on water in a vessel...

If this has been covered and due to my forgetfulness I missed it in YY or FH or wherever please link me and I can have a read though - if not what do you think? Can anyone who knows the prophetic pictures better than me (*cough*kp*cough*) flesh this one out with a few possibilities? Could be completely nothing, although knowing Dad, I would put my money on it being something :)
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Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Sunday, May 9, 2010 2:05:35 PM(UTC)
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Okay, Robski. I’ll admit it: after seven years of dealing with prophecy and Torah, I’ve become hyper-attuned to the symbols, pictures, and metaphor Yah uses to teach us what He wants us to know.

Fact #1. As we all know, the flood of Noah is specifically used as an illustration of the Last Days: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Matthew 24:37-39)

Fact #2. Just as “the land” is a code for Israel, “water” is a euphemism for the nations, the gentiles—the goyim. So when the angel with the little book in Revelation 10 is seen standing with one foot on the sea and one on the land, we know he’s dealing with the whole shootin’ match—Israel and the nations. Although the Tribulation’s timing is defined as the last “seven” of Israel’s seventy “sevens,” Yahweh has promised to “make and end of sins, bring in everlasting righteousness, and seal up vision and prophecy,” among other things, during this time—which necessitates that He’s going to have to deal with everybody, Jews and gentiles alike.

Fact #3. The “business as usual” scenario presented in the Olivet Discourse is saying that gentile values and practices will be both the impetus and the mechanism of God’s judgment. The world as a whole has not heeded the opportunity for atonement God has provided—the grace described by every sacrifice commanded in the Torah, all of which were prophecies fulfilled by Yahshua’s life, death, and resurrection.

Fact #4. If Noah’s flood is a picture or prophecy of the coming Tribulation, and if water is a metaphor for the gentile nations, then it follows that the means by which God’s judgments will be meted out upon the earth will be—at least at first—out-of-control gentiles. And the prophetic texts bear this out. As He has done so many times in the past, Yahweh intends to eradicate one evil with another. So the Antichrist and his home-boys, Gog, dar al-Islam, Babylon, the kings of the east—almost all of the human players responsible for the evils about to befall the earth—are gentiles. (The false prophet—the beast from the land—is an exception: he is analogous to the 2/3 majority of Israel who—according to Zechariah—will not repent.) Statistically, of course, this would come as not surprise. But what might be surprising is the means of Israel’s salvation through the gentile “flood”—an ark, if you will, carrying her to safety for a short time in the wilderness (see Revelation 12:15 for the telling imagery) where she will ride out the deluge of wrath protected by Yahweh’s provision.

Fact #5. The antediluvian character who best represents the ekklesia was Enoch (neither Jew nor Greek, if you know what I mean). And where was Enoch during all of this? He was taken out of the world, translated, “raptured” if you will, many years before Noah (who represents the faithful Israelite remnant) had to be saved from the flood waters. Both Enoch and Noah were given the means to evade the evils represented by gentile godlessness—but (and this is significant) they weren’t saved via the same means.

Fact #6. The ark in which Moses was saved symbolically links the mechanism of Noah’s salvation from the “gentile flood” to Israel’s salvation from bondage in the gentile (read: godless) world. In other words, the scriptural parallel is drawn between Noah and Moses, not between Enoch and Moses.

So yes, I’d say your instincts have served you well here, Rob. Scriptural coincidences are either extremely rare or altogether nonexistent.

kp
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Sunday, May 9, 2010 10:44:24 PM(UTC)
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as always kp - you are a fountain of wisdom lol

Ha I completely forgot about water representing the gentile nations - so maybe in a way you could say symbolistically that Yah was destroying the Gentiles in Noah's day with themselves. "You've done this to yourself's guys..."

You can also say they both kept safe and dry from the gentiles - actually if you think about it - Moses being floated away was a picture of his coming life, in the fact that he was literally kept safe amongst the gentiles of egypt. He floated safely in the midst of the Egyptian nobility.

now I am thinking about Yahushua and His walking on water trick - I mean did He REALLY need to walk out to the boat? or was he making a point with Himself safe on top of the water(gentiles) - showing that Peter could do the same if He walked in His example... Then I think of "Baptism" - you are fully submerged in water, and are then pulled out of it to stand upright...

Thanks Ken that was awesome :)
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Offline James  
#4 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 3:21:33 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
now I am thinking about Yahushua and His walking on water trick - I mean did He REALLY need to walk out to the boat? or was he making a point with Himself safe on top of the water(gentiles) - showing that Peter could do the same if He walked in His example

Great point Rob, I like this.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#5 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 4:03:04 AM(UTC)
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Stretching the image a little further... Water into Wine at the Wedding... lots of symbols there...
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Offline nannala  
#6 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 4:07:38 AM(UTC)
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"as in the day's of Noah"
before the flood came - before the tribulation begins

Sooooooooooooo.....Yahweh's children (Y'ishrael) are taken gently by the hand and carried away to safety (paralambano - like Enoch) years? before the tribulation of the nations (gentiles - godless) and 2/3rds of the Jews while 1/3 of the Jews (Yahudum remnant) flee and are protected by Yahweh.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.



Would the Egyptian army be symbolic of this future event?

Pharoah ordered "cast out of his mouth" his army to pursue Y'ishrael (anti-messiyah orders pursuit of Y'israel remnant)

"water as a flood" - impossible to outrun.....bearing down on those fleeing it. Yahwey uses the "earth" to save Yahudum both times.

Part of the anti-messiyah's army meets a similar end as the Egyptian army - "swallowing up the flood" - the army is destroyed some way.



Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 4:29:09 AM(UTC)
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Good observations all. And yes, Nannala: I do see a parallel between Pharaoh's pursuing armies and the hordes sent to apprehend Israel in the Last Days. If I didn't mention it in FH, I at least remember thinking about it. There are a lot of parallels between the Great Trib flight and the escape from Egypt, and they all result in the same thing, literally and figuratively: God's people being set apart from the world for His glory.

Oh, and by the way: welcome to the forum.

kp
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#8 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 12:18:17 PM(UTC)
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Yea nice thoughts there - and welcome!

I had another one - Yahushua choosing fishermen - becoming fishers of men - pulling men out of the sea/water... lol
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Offline Bridget  
#9 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 2:50:45 PM(UTC)
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Out of the Womb ..and into the Light..
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#10 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 3:30:13 PM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:


Water... yes I know it's quite a big picture of stuff - but out of all of the elements Yah could have used to destroy the people he chose water... why is that?


I like the reference of water being the gentile nations and the pictures that it represents in the scriptures. I've always looked at water as the " word of Yahweh ", heres some references.

Ezek.36:25 " Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. "

John 15:3 " Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. "

Eph.5:26 " That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"

John 3:3 " Yahshua answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of Yahweh. "

1 Peter " 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of Yahweh which lives and abides forever,"

I think if you apply water as the word of Yahweh, we can know that the word is 2 edge sword that delivers salvation and life on one side and destruction and death on the other side.






Edited by moderator Monday, May 10, 2010 10:55:56 PM(UTC)  | Reason: fixed quote :D

Offline Robskiwarrior  
#11 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 10:58:03 PM(UTC)
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Nice bridget :)

Truth - I love the two edged sword thing.
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Offline kp  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, May 11, 2010 7:04:18 AM(UTC)
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In Yah's parlance, it isn't so much the water, but how it's presented, that's the key to the metaphor. Water itself is a means of cleansing and refreshment, and is actually a component of Yahweh's self portrait. The sea, vast, restless, and storm-tossed, is a picture of the gentile nations. Rivers have a separate story to tell, as does rainfall. Although it's way to long to quote in toto, here is a snippet from The Torah Code, speaking of water as an agent of cleansing.

Quote:
In the Torah, we find ourselves time and again faced with instructions concerning cleansing with water, ritually or otherwise. Standing immediately outside the tabernacle or temple was to be a bronze laver or basin. “Yahweh said to Moses, ‘You shall also make a basin of bronze, with its stand of bronze, for washing.” Bronze or brass is a metaphor for judgment, which in God’s mindset is not so much indicative of condemnation as it is separation—in this case, the clean from the defiled. “You shall put it between the tent of meeting and the altar.” Its location was strategic, placed between the altar (where sacrifice was made) and the tabernacle itself (where one would encounter Yahweh). The point is that Christ’s sacrifice would do you no good if you were not willing to be cleansed. “And you shall put water in it, with which Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet.” The priests are those who would intercede and minister before God—metaphorical in the end of all believers, led by our High Priest Yahshua. The washing of our hands and feet is symbolic of letting God’s Spirit purify our works and walk. “When they go into the tent of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn a food offering to Yahweh, they shall wash with water, so that they may not die.” This time, the water isn’t for drinking, but rather for cleansing. The result of using it, however, remains the same: life is preserved. “They shall wash their hands and their feet, so that they may not die. It shall be a statute forever to them, even to him and to his offspring throughout their generations.’” (Exodus 30:17-21)

Reconciliation with God, then, was a two-step process. Step one was sacrifice, performed at the altar—the shedding of innocent blood. Step two was cleansing—washing by water (as before, symbolic of the Word of God, conveyed by His Holy Spirit). Both steps had to be completed before one could come before Yahweh: before he could see by the light of the seven-branched lampstand, partake of the provision of God at the table of showbread, communicate with our Father through prayer at the altar of incense, and ultimately, step into the Most Holy Place, into the very presence of Yahweh. A study of the tabernacle’s layout and furnishings reveals that virtually everything was given specific dimensions and specifications. But the bronze laver is a notable exception. It is as if Yahweh is telling us, “There’s no limit to My capacity for cleansing you; there is no amount of filth I can’t wash away in the shadow of the Messiah’s perfect sacrifice.

A perusal of the Torah (especially the book of Leviticus) reveals that every time we turn around, God is instructing a ritual cleansing of one sort or another—usually achieved through washing with water. Priests, for example, were to be ritually bathed during their ordination ceremony. “Moses said to the congregation, ‘This is the thing that Yahweh has commanded to be done.’ And Moses brought Aaron and his sons and washed them with water.” (Leviticus 8:5-6) Washing with water was also prescribed for all sorts of bodily functions that, while part of the ordinary course of life, were defined as “ritually defiling.” They could imply illness, but didn’t necessarily. For example, “When any man has a discharge from his body, his discharge is unclean. And this is the law of his uncleanness for a discharge: whether his body runs with his discharge, or his body is blocked up by his discharge, it is his uncleanness.” (Leviticus 15:2-3) This could include anything from emissions of semen to the common cold to bubonic plague. For women, very specific instructions along similar lines were given concerning menses and childbirth. Israelites were to avoid physical contact with the one who had any of these “discharges,” and the remedy for having such contact was (as we read dozens of times) that the defiled person was to “wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening.”

Nobody could completely avoid becoming ceremonially “unclean,” of course. The state of ritual impurity was inevitable and unavoidable, though being clean and undefiled was clearly to be preferred. Priests, for example, could not perform certain of their duties while ceremonially defiled. But the human condition guaranteed ritual defilement from time to time. Sex, for instance, made both partners “ritually unclean,” and yet without it, the human race would disappear in one generation—clearly violating God’s command to “Be fruitful and multiply.” So it should come as no surprise that Yahweh never prohibited the things that caused defilement; He only insisted that we take pains to become clean again.

The ultimate permutation of defilement or uncleanness was death. But Yahweh had a remedy for this as well: the ordinance of the “Red Heifer.” Basically, a young cow, red in color, was to be sacrificed and burned to ashes, which were to be mixed with water and sprinkled upon anyone who had come in contact with a dead body. The whole complicated ritual, fraught with prophetic significance, is recounted in Numbers 19. The bottom line: “If the man who is unclean [through contact with death] does not cleanse himself, that person shall be cut off from the midst of the assembly, since he has defiled the sanctuary of Yahweh. Because the water for impurity has not been thrown on him, he is unclean. And it shall be a statute forever for them. The one who sprinkles the water for impurity shall wash his clothes, and the one who touches the water for impurity shall be unclean until evening. And whatever the unclean person touches shall be unclean, and anyone who touches it shall be unclean until evening.” (Numbers 19:20-22) Everybody involved, the one who had come in contact with death and those who were tasked with administering his remedy, were defiled—made ritually impure—in the process. The whole thing is a microcosm of the human condition. Being mortal, we all “touch death.” Even those who are part of that solution—preparing and delivering the “water of purification”—are in need of cleansing. The question is: are we willing to accept Yahweh’s solution to our problem?

These purification rituals we find in the Torah are of little practical use. That is, although practicing good basic hygiene is no doubt a good first step in remaining healthy, the rites as described in the Torah would have minimal effect in actually warding off disease. The ordinance of the red heifer, in particular, would seem less than efficacious in physically ensuring that contact with dead bodies did not result in life threatening illnesses. No, we really need to examine the symbolic aspects of these things if we hope to discern God’s life-lessons. The oft-repeated formula, you’ll recall, was for the defiled person to “wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening.” Let us therefore examine what these three things mean.

First, what we’re wearing is a common scriptural metaphor for our status before God—our clothes represent how He sees us. Are we butt naked, or wearing fig leave aprons we’ve cobbled together to hide our shame, or have we donned the tunics of innocent-animal skins He made for us? Do we, with Daniel, put on sackcloth and ashes when appropriate? Do we, with David, strip down to our bare necessities and dance with passionate abandon before Yahweh when it’s time to celebrate His awesome love? Do we prefer the scratchy wool of works-based religion, or the brilliant white linen garments of imputed righteousness? We aren’t called to monastic isolation: we’re commanded, rather, to go into all the world as witnesses of God’s love. But as we walk through the world as mortal believers, it’s inevitable that we’ll brush up against things that render us unclean. It can’t be helped. We aren’t to stay that way, however. We are told to wash our garments.

Second, we are to bathe our bodies. These mortal shells we inhabit aren’t designed to last forever, but they are gifts from God—necessary tools we all need to employ in the course of our work here on earth. It seems to me, we ought to take care of our tools, keep them sharp and clean, use them as they were intended, and so forth. I fully realize, of course, that you can go nuts with this—manifesting mental illnesses ranging from hypochondria to narcissism. But my body is going to look pretty much the same in a hundred years whether I pamper it and take it to the gym six days a week or if I give up and stop taking care of it altogether. It only has to get me to the end of my mortal life. So what is God talking about? I believe He’s telling us not to let the world’s grime and filth accumulate on us—or in us. Our bodies are, after all, the temple of the Holy Spirit. You wouldn’t ask Yahweh to live in a pigsty, would you?

Third, we need to face the uncomfortable fact that in reality, we’re going to remain “unclean”—even after we’ve been washed—until the sun goes down. That, my friends, is a thinly veiled euphemism for physical death (or rapture, if you happen to be part of that generation). The fact is, we cannot stand before a holy God clothed in these mortal bodies. We were never intended to. Paul reminds us, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable…. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.” (I Corinthians 15:50, 53-55) Every believer in Yahshua will someday receive a body that’s built for eternal life with Him—a very different kind of body than the one in which we walk about in this present world. We’re going to ditch the defiled and put on the imperishable. Until then, our job is to keep these mortal vessels clean through frequent washing in the Word and immersion in the Spirit of God.

In reality, of course, it is not ourselves, but Yahweh who cleanses us. In what appears to be a reference to the ordinance of the Red Heifer, Yahweh promises this: “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.” (Ezekiel 36:25-29)


kp
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, May 11, 2010 8:06:47 AM(UTC)
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Thanks ken :D
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:45:37 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
I think if you apply water as the word of Yahweh, we can know that the word is 2 edge sword that delivers salvation and life on one side and destruction and death on the other side.


John does exactly that in Revelation 1:16; don't forget the “Word made flesh”, pictured with the two edged sword in His mouth.

I love the water discussion, but don't forget that Yah has promised us the story line of the movie 2012 will never play out. He will never again destroy the earth with water; next time it's fire. Peter speaks (1 Peter 3) of Noah and the water; then in 2 Peter 3 of the fire to come (and makes the timing clear!)

Pardon my KJV:
Quote:
1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


As with the water, there's also another picture of the fire... and the “long trump” before it!
Exodus 19: 8And all the people answered together, and said, All that Yahweh hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto Yahweh. 9And Yahweh said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto Yahweh. 10And Yahweh said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11And be ready against the third day: for the third day Yahweh will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 13There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. 14And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. 16And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because Yahweh descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20And Yahweh came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and Yahweh called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. 21And Yahweh said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto Yahweh to gaze, and many of them perish. 22And let the priests also, which come near to Yahweh, sanctify themselves, lest Yahweh break forth upon them. 23And Moses said unto Yahweh, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it. 24And Yahweh said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto Yahweh, lest he break forth upon them. 25So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
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