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Pentecost: Pharisaic, or Sadducean?
![RidesWithYah RidesWithYah](/resource.ashx?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.gravatar.com%2favatar%2f81053a47a2bce8c7cfd4fc6580b22a8c.jpg%3fr%3dPG&width=50&height=150) Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC) Posts: 331
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Just finished re-reading the Shabuwah chapter; and I'm confused on the timing of the Feast of Weeks.
Strong's tells us that the Hebrew word translated "Sabbath" in Leviticus 23, verses 11, 15, and 16, is "Shabbat". It looks like this word is used consistently to refer to the weekly sabbath. In other verses, "Shabbathon" is used, which looks like it refers to the Feast Days. So wouldn't this put FirstFruits, and therefore Weeks, on the day after the weekly Sabbath -- always the first day of the week? How do we know that the Wave Offering was always to be Abib 16, rather than whatever date the day after weekly sabbath fell? Granted, in 33AD, 15 Abib was a weekly Sabbath, so both were correct that year...
Note especially verse 16. If He had intended "weeks" not "sabbaths", wouldn't He have used Shabuwa rather than Shabbat? 16Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto Yahweh.
What other than our (well deserved) aversion to "Sun-Day" precludes this understanding?
In His Love, RWY. |
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![Robskiwarrior Robskiwarrior](/resource.ashx?u=35) Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,470 ![Man Man](/Themes/BlackGrey/male.gif) Location: England Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
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I believe the first fruits is the day after the weekly Shabbat - not like 3 days in a row as is described in YY. We spoke to J&M about this just before it all kicked off this year, I remember thinking that way a few years ago too... but then got confused lol
So yes I believe its Passover/UB then FF starts after the next Weekly Sabbath (within the feast of UB) I kinda think that is another reason for UB to last the week.
In regards to it being a Sunday, I don't think Yah is that bothered to be honest. I only think He is bothered when we are forcing that day on Him as His. Sunday isn't Shabbat and He knows that... I think maybe we are a little over sensitive about avoiding Sunday worship :) And in light of the Rabbits - the old saying "even a blind squirrel can find a nut sometimes" is appropriate :)
I will poke J&M this way I am sure they can give a more detailed review :) |
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![thanks](/Themes/BlackGrey/heart_small.png) 1 user thanked Robskiwarrior for this useful post.
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![bitnet bitnet](/resource.ashx?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.gravatar.com%2favatar%2f1ee3e67bb0e4d315d1defdc6a95f51ae.jpg%3fr%3dPG&width=50&height=150) Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,120
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Shalom,
Seems to me that we always seem to have to discuss Miqra dates. In the past the congregation I attended used the same method as put forth by Robski, but since I discovered YY we have been keeping it differently. It would be a good thing to work this one out in the Forum so that we can all get a firm understanding of what Abba Yahweh wanted out of this Miqra date. |
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom. |
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![RidesWithYah RidesWithYah](/resource.ashx?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.gravatar.com%2favatar%2f81053a47a2bce8c7cfd4fc6580b22a8c.jpg%3fr%3dPG&width=50&height=150) Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC) Posts: 331
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I'll propose the Shabuwa chapter of YY as one point of view; this link as the opposing view to start the discussion. |
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![RidesWithYah RidesWithYah](/resource.ashx?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.gravatar.com%2favatar%2f81053a47a2bce8c7cfd4fc6580b22a8c.jpg%3fr%3dPG&width=50&height=150) Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC) Posts: 331
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Not a lot of discussion here yet. What are you waiting for?
lol.
I woke up this morning approaching conviction -- Yahweh is not a God of confusion. If He meant for the wave offering to ALWAYS BE the 16th day of the first month; I believe He would have plainly said so. It would be the simple, plain-sense way to convey the thought.
But instead He said the "morrow after the Sabbath", and used the word used for "weekly Sabbath" not "Feast Sabbath". So I'm convinced He means this to always be the first day of the week. The Feast of Weeks, commonly called Pentecost, is counted from this date, so it too always falls on the same day of the week.
If I'm wrong, please correct me.
On a related note, if the wave offering happens on the first day of the week (morrow after the Sabbath); and the Feast of Weeks happens on the first day of the week (morrow after the seventh Sabbath); then the name "Pentecost" isn't right. What's Greek for 49?
In His Love, RWY.
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![Robskiwarrior Robskiwarrior](/resource.ashx?u=35) Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,470 ![Man Man](/Themes/BlackGrey/male.gif) Location: England Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
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I think that too RWY :)
I could be wrong - of course lol But the wording as you say, it kinda makes sense as well that UB is 7 days, meaning Weeks will always fall within it. It was just the fulfilling of prophesy in 33CE that "racked em up" as to say.
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Signature Updated! Woo that was old... |
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![cgb2 cgb2](/resource.ashx?u=541) Joined: 5/14/2010(UTC) Posts: 689 Location: Colorado
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FWIW: Karaite Corner also counts it morrow after sabbath and is May 23...which I take to mean sundown May 22 thru sundown May 23. http://www.karaite-korner.org/omer.shtml
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![Bubsy Bubsy](/resource.ashx?u=1629) Joined: 1/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 122 ![Man Man](/Themes/BlackGrey/male.gif) Location: Los Angeles Thanks: 2 times Was thanked: 22 time(s) in 19 post(s)
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RidesWithYah wrote: I woke up this morning approaching conviction -- Yahweh is not a God of confusion. If He meant for the wave offering to ALWAYS BE the 16th day of the first month; I believe He would have plainly said so. It would be the simple, plain-sense way to convey the thought.
But instead He said the "morrow after the Sabbath", and used the word used for "weekly Sabbath" not "Feast Sabbath". So I'm convinced He means this to always be the first day of the week. The Feast of Weeks, commonly called Pentecost, is counted from this date, so it too always falls on the same day of the week.
That's the strongest argument I've seen so far that Feast of Weeks would always be on a Sunday, 50 days after the Sabbath DURING Unleavened Bread, as opposed to the 16th day of the first month, the day of week observance moving around year to year depending on which day of the week the Sabbath OF the first day of Unleavened Bread fell. Maybe I should observe both Tuesday, June 3 AND Sunday June 8 this year as the Feast of Weeks, and if I receive the Set-Apart Spirit, on which one. For what it's worth, I remember George Carlin on Class Clown, talking about his Irish Catholic days, mentioning "Pentecost Sunday". Though that's a tradition from what Yahowsha called the Seat of Satan, that could still be one thing they got right. Until we find definitive word from Yahowah or Yahowsha to rule out one or the other... |
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly. |
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![James James](/resource.ashx?u=97) Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC) Posts: 2,616 ![Man Man](/Themes/BlackGrey/male.gif) Location: Texas Thanks: 5 times Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
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Lev 23:11 ‘And he shall wave the sheaf before יהוה, for your acceptance. On the morrow after the Sabbath the priest waves it. This is the first fruits offering. Which according to this interpretation would always be the first day of the week.
Lev 23:15 ‘And from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you shall count for yourselves: seven completed Sabbaths. Lev 23:16 ‘Until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath you count fifty days, then you shall bring a new grain offering to יהוה.
So according to this from First Fruits you would count 7 Sabbaths, which would be again the first day of the week. So then add one day means that Weeks would always be the 2nd day of the week, not the first day of the week.
The only way for it to always be the first day of the week would be to literally count Sabbaths, not just Sevens, but then the 7 Sabbaths plus one does not equal 50 days because 50 days latter would always fall on the second day, and 7 literal Sabbaths plus one would always fall on the first day.
Rather or not First Fruits falls on the 16th every year, or on the day after the Sabbath that occurs during Matsah, I don’t know. In fact having spent a great deal of time studying it I am convinced that First Fruits timing is unrelated to the timing of Pesach and Matsah, but rather related to when the first fruits of the harvest were brought in, which would tend to fall around the same time as Pesach and Matsah. As I see it now, I don’t have a harvest I don’t grow anything. I am commemorating the fulfillment of these events, so I observer it in relation to that, which places it the day after the first day of Matsah. Not going to be dogmatic about that at all though.
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Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand |
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![Bubsy Bubsy](/resource.ashx?u=1629) Joined: 1/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 122 ![Man Man](/Themes/BlackGrey/male.gif) Location: Los Angeles Thanks: 2 times Was thanked: 22 time(s) in 19 post(s)
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A thought occurred to me a while ago, and I have just now found this thread again - what days of the week did Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits fall upon in 1447 BCE, the year Moseh teamed up with Yahowah, then moseyed on into Egypt to draw the Israelites out of Egypt? I recall that Moseh first told Pharaoh on behalf of Yahowah that Yahowah wanted his people for 3 days in the wilderness, undoubtedly Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits. If in that year, they fell on anything other than Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, that would be strong evidence for Firstfruits being on the 16th of Nisan, even if Yahowah never explicitly said so. |
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly. |
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![chrud chrud](/resource.ashx?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.gravatar.com%2favatar%2fe4d396bd3712c74ba01a416ff78ed4e8.jpg%3fr%3dPG&width=50&height=150) Joined: 8/22/2012(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: Austin, TX
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According to rosetta calendar (http://www.rosettacalendar.com), Nisan the 14th in 1447BCE occured on a Friday.
-chrud
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![Bubsy Bubsy](/resource.ashx?u=1629) Joined: 1/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 122 ![Man Man](/Themes/BlackGrey/male.gif) Location: Los Angeles Thanks: 2 times Was thanked: 22 time(s) in 19 post(s)
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Originally Posted by: chrud ![Go to Quoted Post Go to Quoted Post](/Themes/BlackGrey/icon_latest_reply.png) According to rosetta calendar (http://www.rosettacalendar.com), Nisan the 14th in 1447BCE occured on a Friday.
-chrud Ah, a very handy site that is. Though that doesn't provide the strong evidence for or against Firstfruits always being Nisan 16, while playing around with it, I found that Nisan 14 in 1968 BCE, when Yahowah confirmed the covenant with Abraham, also fell on a Friday, so that year Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits again fell on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, just like in 1447 BCE, and just like in 33 CE in their ultimate fulfillments. I'm seeing yet another pattern... |
Ha Shem? I'm kind of fond of Ha Shemp, Ha Larry, and Ha Moe myself. And the earlier shorts with Ha Curly. |
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