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Offline Prodigal  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 2:24:07 AM(UTC)
Prodigal
Joined: 2/24/2010(UTC)
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Location: Cincinnati, OH

Something came to mind while rereading the Miqra' chapters (a couple somethings, actually, but they're related). Yada repeatedly talks about the purposes of each of the Miqra'ey and their fulfillments. He states that Passover removes the consequence of sin, Unleavened Bread the penalty of sin, etc. I'm trying to figure out the difference between a consequence and a penalty. Seems to me that separation and death are both natural consequences of sinning.

While I was thinking about that, something else popped into my head. A few years ago, I was actively posting on Beliefnet (for those that aren't familiar, it's a site and forum for all sorts of different faiths). I was introduced to the "Christus Victor" view of atonement (it was basically how I had viewed atonement, but they put a fancy name on it and put it in clearer terms). Simply put, the logic goes that Yahshua's (though obviously they call Him Jesus there) death wasn't to pay a penalty as much as it was a ransom to Satan. He ransomed himself to free us from the grave. He couldn't (and by couldn't I mean chose not to since it would have involved going to the place of separation, thereby contradicting Himself) do it without becoming a human being first, dying, and, for lack of a better analogy, staging a jailbreak.

It's as if we, His children, have run away from home, get ourselves into trouble, and Yahweh, like any loving parent, does everything in His power to bring us back home. Some of us, unfortunately, like things better either in captivity, or naively denying our captivity in the first place. In either of those situations, He respects our choice and doesn't bring us home.

I get the feeling while reading that Yada is more of the "He paid the penalty so we wouldn't have to" viewpoint. My problem with that is that it seems to put Yahweh's Law and requirement for justice at a higher level than Yahweh Himself. It seems too legalistic and limited for it to be His ultimate plan.

Here's a good essay that puts it into words much better than I can. He's got the names wrong, but I like his reasoning. http://therebelgod.com/cross_intro.shtml

This brings me back to my first point. If Unleavened bread isn't about getting rid of the penalty for sin, what is it about? My best guess is that it is about removing sin. It is the process Yahweh has gone through to remove our sin so we are blameless in His eyes. So what were Psalms 22 and 88 about? Well, he has to pay the ransom and this could be part of it, or it simply could be what He had to endure to get to a point where He could free us for First Fruits.

Thoughts?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 2:48:23 AM(UTC)
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Here is my take on it.

Passover = penalty paid for separation of spirit from soul. Less the physical more the spiritual.

Unleavened = removal of sin for those who rely on the result of the first feast of the year.

First Fruits = First fruits of the harvest that resulted from the first 2 feasts fulfilment.

I can't see where ransom comes in to it. To say you have to ransom to Satan is to say he at some point has had the upper hand, which is never implied or described. Maybe Satan wants us to think that but, Satan was doomed from the moment he fell went out of line. Satan dosen't hold the keys to death and never did. He will not rule over "hell" so he has no hold on who enters. Also to say you are being ransomed is to say that everyone is going to hell - as everyone needs to be ransomed. But that is not the case, it is only those who attach themselves to Satan that share his fate. Most will be destroyed because they did not connect with anything.

So for me the mindset that Satan has to be paid off so we are released, or that Yahushua was our payment to Satan to save our lives from his fork and horns dosen't fit with Scripture. I think it does fit in some Christian theology though.

As for the word Atonement - I am not sure about a better way of saying that, but I would agree with Yada in that it being in regards to the feast more "reconciliation's" rather then atonement.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Prodigal  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 3:41:58 AM(UTC)
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Location: Cincinnati, OH

That makes sense. Still got some of that Christian thinking to sort through, I guess.

I understand the removal of sin as part of Unleavened bread. My confusion is why Yahshua was tortured in Sheol. Was it on our behalf? Or was it part of His death (the next step in the process)? It just doesn't seem to have anything to do with removing sin (which I agree is the whole point of Unleavened bread). All that seems common between the torture in Sheol and Unleavened Bread is the timing (it happened after Passover and before First Fruits).

I also understand the three destination thing. Makes perfect sense. Maybe my understanding of Sheol is limited. Is it defined as the Abyss (Hell), or is it simply where the dead reside until either being resurrected or judged (and after judgment either released to die or thrown to the Abyss)? Been a while since I've read FH; I think it was discussed there.

Also, is some of this discussed later in the book (I've only read the first two and will be starting the third shortly)?

Thanks for the help.
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 4:38:03 AM(UTC)
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Yahushua's only torment in Sheol was being separated from Yahuweh, and that is why it's appropriate to say he paid the price for sin, he removed our sin, and took it upon himself, which is why His soul went to Sheol. Someone had to pay the penalty for it, and because he choose to let our sin be associated with Him he choose to suffer that penalty.

Sheol isn't the same as the Abyss, as I see it. Sheol is a temporary holding place, no souls will be sent to the abyss until after the final judgment. Then all the souls who remain in Sheol will be judged, and either sent to the abyss, or destroyed.
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Offline Prodigal  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, April 6, 2010 8:29:38 AM(UTC)
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Posts: 65
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Here's the part that confused me.

Quote:
With foreboding words, the then future and now past sacrificial soul pleads with Yahweh, asking Him not to abandon Him. He recognizes that He is headed to a rendezvous with Satan, the Adversary, where He will be afflicted. He knows that nothing exists that can protect Him from this tribulation. "Do not remove Yourself (rachaq - sever, recede and distance Yourself, go away) from (min) Me, because the Adversary’s affliction (tsarah - the enemy’s anguish and oppressor’s tribulation; suffering) is near (qarob - personal and imminent in space-time). For indeed, no one (ayin - nothing) can help (azar - protect, support, or aid) Me." (Psalm 22:11) And that is the moral of the story. Only Yahweh can spare us from Satan’s sting. He alone can be counted on to help in our hour of greatest need. And yet, Yahweh could not, and still cannot, go into Satan’s lair-as it is the place of separation. However, since separation from God is the penalty prescribed for sin, Yahshua’s soul would have to go there to redeem us. All God’s Spirit could do was open and close the door. Once inside, Yahshua would be on His own.


I'm thinking it's just Yada's commentary that's getting me hung up. I reread the two Psalms in that chapter and I think I went in with the preconception of torment going on, but I think it was actually more self-induced agony at being separated from God's Spirit for the first time.

While rereading it, I also think I may have answered my other question (what does going to the Pit have to do with removing sins). It could be that this is where Yahshua left our sins. It certainly sounds that way in the Psalms. It is very mournful while going there and staying there, and all of a sudden,

Quote:
"Yahuweh, I have called out to You by name (qara’ - summoning You) all day (kol yowm). I have stretched out the palms of My hands. So finish the job, accomplish the mission, prepare the way (‘asah), perform the marvelous and extraordinary wonder for (pala’/pele’ - surpassing all human understanding on behalf of) the dead (muwth) so that the souls of the departed (rapha’ym - a class of mortal souls who possess the Spirit but no material substance) rise (quwm - arise and stand upright, become powerful and mighty, are confirmed, ratified, and established, roused to life and restored) confessing and thanking You, lifting You up in exaltation (selah)." (Psalm 88:9-10) The purpose of the sacrifice of Unleavened Bread, the result it accomplished, was to prepare the Way to miraculously resurrect mortal souls, renewing them to life. It remains Yahuweh’s most wondrous, marvelous and extraordinary accomplishment.


Sounds to me like He's dropped off our sins and is looking forward to the resurrection.
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