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Offline RidesWithYah  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, February 9, 2010 3:27:13 PM(UTC)
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Need some scholarly help here.
Reading a book about Revelation, which claims that the Greek translated "miracles" in the KJV should actually be translated "ceremonies".
Can anyone confirm the original Greek, and whether "ceremonies" is one of the acceptable definitions?

Swalchy gives this at thewaytoYahuweh.com :


Quote:
signs and marks, tokens and phenomenon’s, miracles and wonders,


*Could* it be ceremonies?
Offline James  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, February 9, 2010 5:29:11 PM(UTC)
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Given Swalchy's tendency to include every possible meaning of a word in his translation, I would guess no, but I could be wrong.

Paging Swalchy.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, February 9, 2010 10:50:33 PM(UTC)
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"signs and marks, tokens and phenomenon’s, miracles and wonders"

So no - I would stick my neck out, knowing Swalchys translation and say it does not mean ceremonies.

I think its...

4592 σημεῖον [semeion /say·mi·on/] n n. From a presumed derivative of the base of 4591; TDNT 7:200; TDNTA 1015; GK 4956; 77 occurrences; AV translates as “sign” 50 times, “miracle” 23 times, “wonder” three times, and “token” once. 1 a sign, mark, token. 1a that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known. 1b a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature. 1b1 of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen. 1b2 of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are pleading is God’s.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline RidesWithYah  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, February 10, 2010 12:55:52 AM(UTC)
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This is why I love y'all.
Thanks for the help.

I found a couple of other points which didn't seem to fit;
but also some nuggets worth verifying.
It may be that the author has some wheat, and some tares.
If things check out, I'll post a summary of the argument.
I DO believe He reveals pieces to many; none of us get the whole picture --
we must work together to make the pieces fit.
Offline Matthew  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:35:52 PM(UTC)
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Good work guys!

Swlachy seems to have a lot of time on his hands, at least he's putting it to excellent and brilliant, fantastic and marvellous, wonderful and spectacular work ;)

So what "signs" do you think will be performed to convince the sovereigns of the world to follow the dragon, beast and false prophet?
Offline James  
#6 Posted : Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:13:52 AM(UTC)
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Pure speculation, but I imagine the illusion of world peace will be a big one.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Friday, February 12, 2010 10:12:30 AM(UTC)
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To my knowledge, the only specific sign identified in Revelation to be performed by the "beast out of the earth" (a.k.a. the "false prophet") is described in Revelation 13:13... "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." Whether this is the specific sign that persuades everybody to show up at Armageddon is anybody's guess.

kp
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Friday, February 12, 2010 3:09:23 PM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
To my knowledge, the only specific sign identified in Revelation to be performed by the "beast out of the earth" (a.k.a. the "false prophet") is described in Revelation 13:13... "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." Whether this is the specific sign that persuades everybody to show up at Armageddon is anybody's guess.

kp

So KP, do think that is literal in the sense he will make it rain fire, or more like the description of a weapon? For John seeing missiles fall from the sky and create destruction and fire might well have looked like he made fire come down from heaven.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline RidesWithYah  
#9 Posted : Friday, February 12, 2010 4:04:19 PM(UTC)
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Although I think she's misinterpreting several minor points, I'm just about sold on this author's central hypothesis.
The clincher for me would be if you language scholars could clarify the relationship between the Hebrew word translated "sign" in Ezekiel 20:12 and the Greek word translated "mark" in Revelation 13:16,17.

Quote:
12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.

Quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,

=========================================
Most of us have read that the Harlot is the Roman Catholic Church (RCC).
Her argument is that the "mark of the beast" is adoption of the RCC liturgical calendar.
She even quotes Vatican II documents stating that the liturgy is the "mark of the authority" of the RCC;
in essence, if you observe (actively or passively) the RCC "holidays", you assent to the authority of the RCC and the pope.
So we're faced with a choice -- take Yahweh's mark, worshiping His way on His days;
or the Pope's mark, worshiping the Catholic way on the Catholic days.

Go get your Bible. Read Revelation 13:1-4, then Daniel 7. Clearly the topics are the same, and Daniel provides an explanation. Daniel 7:24, "he will subdue three kings", as Rome destroyed the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths.

25:
Quote:
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

I don't have to say much about how the RCC fits the first part of v. 25. The second part got me -- time, times, and half a time. We usually think of that as 3 1/2 prophetic years, or 1260 days. But get this -- Justinian's Decree establishing the papal monarchy became effective in 538AD; and a "deadly wound" was dealt 1260 years later when General Berthier captured Pope Pius VI in 1798.

Rev 13:11
Quote:
Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.


So the second beast was rising, around the same time as the "deadly" wound. The US Constitution was ratified in 1789.
Pope Gregory invented the Gregorian Calendar in 1582 to keep the Babylonian Feasts occurring in their seasons;
but it was the US adoption of this in 1800 that set the stage for it to be adopted worldwide; causing the world's economy to literally revolve around Roman Catholic Liturgy (the Babylonian feasts). So the second beast is the USA -- the two horns are two seats of government, our Federal government, and the sovereign Vatican HQ in Baltimore. (According to Rome, American catholics are "dual citizens" of the USA and the Vatican; and your local priests and bishops are Vatican government officials. Think of the opportunities for gathering intelligence, as our public servants go to confession...)

Quote:
13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
We've already mentioned the images of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, broadcast on televisions worldwide. (TV invented here in the USA, so that we could "give life to the image" as in v15.)

Quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead
This is symbolic -- you either adopt the liturgy in your heart (mind), or by your actions (hand).

Quote:
so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark,
You can't deny the impact of the Catholic calendar on the world's economy. Any who do you see buying and selling on the weekly Sabbath and Yahweh's feast days? Those with the "mark" of the RCC's authority.
Quote:

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Many have demonstrated numerological associations with Rome in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek -- the same languages used to identify Yahshua, and his "crime", when he was crucified.

What do you think?

Edited by user Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:12:58 AM(UTC)  | Reason: fix typo

Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#10 Posted : Saturday, February 13, 2010 5:48:00 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
So KP, do think that is literal in the sense he will make it rain fire, or more like the description of a weapon? For John seeing missiles fall from the sky and create destruction and fire might well have looked like he made fire come down from heaven.


James, I don't believe this is literal, but is something that has been going on now for sometime now. In some churches the sign that someone has been born by the set apart spirit is when the pastor, preacher, or better yet a false prophet lays his hand on someone and prays for their salvation. Then that person receives the set apart spirit and falls backwards into the hands of those awaiting to catch them, they call this phenomenon " slain in the spirit", it's a sign that they have become born again.

If we check in the scriptures we can see that EliYah the Tishbite warned that fire would literally come and consume the captain of the fifty and his men in 2 Kings 2,3,10
" 1:2 And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the elohim of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease. 1:3 But the angel of Yahweh said to EliYah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not an Elohim in Israel, that ye go to inquire of Baal-zebub the elohim of Ekron? 1:10 And EliYah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of Elohim, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty." This feat of fire coming down from heaven was literal, but was manifest by the spirit, when Yahshua demostrated it the John 18:3-6 " Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
18:4 Yahshua therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 18:5 They answered him, Yahshua of Nazareth. Yahshua saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground."

Yahshua was demostrating that he could've destroyed Judas, band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees at that moment if he wanted to, but allowed them to take him so all would be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet. What else is interesting from 2Kings is that King Ahaziah ended up sending 3 captains with their bands of fifty men and only 2 of the captains and their fifty were destroyed. This means that 2/3 were destroyed and 2/3 equals 666. Can we understand from that, that the number 666 is the number of man spoken of in Rev. 13:18. Just a thought.
Offline lassie1865  
#11 Posted : Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:19:32 AM(UTC)
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I think that the Sabbath is a "sign", but not the same as THE MARK. It seems that the more literal interpretation usually fits best. I think the "mark of the beast" is literally a "mark", a "tatoo", or an imbedded "chip" in the hand or the forehead, something like a bar code or the name of the Beast. (Also, does it not say "they will give themselves the mark"?) Yahweh will seal His 144,000 with His "mark" upon their foreheads. The "fire from heaven" will be just that: a miraculous fire from heaven; if it were weapons of war, the people of that time would not think the Antichrist was doing anything miraculous or awesome.
Offline RidesWithYah  
#12 Posted : Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:35:14 PM(UTC)
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Swalchy, how does that compare with the Hebrew translated "sign" in Ezekiel 20:12?
Offline Matthew  
#13 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2010 9:51:55 AM(UTC)
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kp wrote:
To my knowledge, the only specific sign identified in Revelation to be performed by the "beast out of the earth" (a.k.a. the "false prophet") is described in Revelation 13:13... "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." Whether this is the specific sign that persuades everybody to show up at Armageddon is anybody's guess.
kp


Didn't even know that verse existed, or at least just forgot about it!

Swalchy wrote:
It certainly does Lassie - the Beast is so convincing, he persuades the people of the earth that the Mark is necessary and beneficial for them, and so they take his "brand" upon themselves.
I also agree with the interpretation that it's a literal "mark" - the Greek word is χαραγμα/charagma, which literally means an "engraved, etched, carved, or cut mark, sign or stamp". Can't get more literally than that.


Isaiah 44:5 "One says, ‘I belong to יהוה; another calls himself by the name of Yaʽaqoḇ; another writes with his hand, ‘Unto יהוה,’ and names himself by the name of Yisra’ĕl."

I hope KP doesn't mind but I'm gonna copy and paste an email he responsed to of mine asking about this verse:

kp wrote:
The passage is one of the innumerable bits of scripture describing the eventual and inevitable restoration of Israel as Yahweh's people. What's being described here is a good thing in God's eyes: people (Israelites) are described as identifying with Yahweh in a covenant relationship, one way or another... The "hand" is a common symbol in scripture for one's strength, power, or works. So "to write [with] the hand" that you are Yahweh's (literally "to Yahweh") is to publish in written form that your strength is Yahweh. Even if it denotes getting a "Yahweh tattoo," the meaning is the same: the subject is going "on record" as being Yahweh's man. I like the concept a lot.

Did you catch the previous verse [Isaiah 44:4], where reference is made to "willows by the watercourses?" That rang a really loud bell for me. In TOM II, Ch 10, Precept #862, I explained what the "willows" signify, in the context of the "building materials" used in the booths of the Feast of Tabernacles:

...(4) “Willows of the brook” are designated by the Hebrew noun ereb, meaning a willow or poplar tree. A virtually identical noun, however (with the same consonant root), denotes “a mixture, a mixed company, interwoven. The primary meaning is a grouping of people from various ethnic and cultural backgrounds. It was used of the heterogeneous band associated with the nation of Israel as it departed from Egypt…” (Baker and Carpenter) The word also means “woof,” as in the threads that cross and interweave with the warp in a fabric. This, perhaps, sheds new light on the reason ereb is used in Exodus 12:38 to describe the “mixed” gentile multitude that believed in Yahweh and left Egypt along with the Israelites in the exodus. The two groups were interwoven, interdependent, and symbiotic, but their identities and heritage remained somewhat distinct. Together, then, the four trees listed in Leviticus 23:40 signify the populace of the Millennial Kingdom of our Messiah, beginning with the glorious King, Yahshua himself, and including His “children,” the righteous who will flourish in His courts: those of Israel and every other nation who have “conspired” together to love and honor Yahweh in truth and trust—every believer from every age, from Adam until the last child born during the Millennium. Perhaps the most amazing fact of all is that these people are said to be the very dwelling place of the Glory of God.

It all ties together: the guy whose strength is Yahweh in Israel during the Kingdom age will be part of the same glorious human ecosphere (as I read the imagery of Is. 44:4) as are the believers of the ekklesia who figured it out in the previous age.


KP then also says later:

kp wrote:
In Revelation, the Greek literally says “And he caused it so that they would each give to themselves a mark”, which means that people won’t be been forced to “receive” a mark (even though that’s what most English translations say – but didomi means give, not receive – that’s reserved for lambano), but that they will be giving themselves a “mark”, which is literally an “engraving/inscription” indicating that they belong to the beast.


Here's Swalchy's take on Revelation 13:16:

Swlachy wrote:
"And he makes and causes everyone, individually and collectively, the small, little and few in significance, and the great, powerful and arrogant, and the rich, those abounding in material resources, and the poor, those destitute of wealth and influence, high position and honour, and the free and unrestrained, and the slaves, servants and attendants so that and in order that they will give and grant, supply and furnish, bestow and deliver, commit and permit, extend, present and provide* themselves* a mark and stamp, inscription and sign, imprinted designation, brand, and idolatrous image upon their right hands or upon their foreheads, and it makes it so that and in order that no one and nothing is able or capable, strong, mighty or powerful enough to buy or purchase things in the market or to barter and sell, except and unless they have and hold, possess and own, retain and keep the mark and stamp, inscription and sign, imprinted designation, brand, and idolatrous image, or the name and title, character and person, reputation and authority of the beast and wild animal, or the fixed and definite number of its name and title, character and person, reputation and authority."


After seeing "idolatrous image" I can't help but refer you guys to THIS post by Yada!

So this passage of Isaiah 44 is concerning the End Times and it could be some sort of declaration in defiance of the Antichrist, as if instead of saying I belong to the Antichrist these believers returning to Yahweh say they belong to Yahweh.

RidesWithYah wrote:
18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Many have demonstrated numerological associations with Rome in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek -- the same languages used to identify Yahshua, and his "crime", when he was crucified.


I've seen some say the letters/image of 666 as originally written actually resemble Islamic signs and writings, saying those belonging to the Beast could in fact be belonging to Allah and surrendering to Islam. Google it! But this doesn't make sense in regards to the timing of the Gog and Magog war happening prior to the Antichrist issuing the mark of the beast. Why would the mark of the beast be Islam if Islam had just literally been wiped off the map?

I'm also not really buying the Catholic argument since they really don't have so much power, they've become a laughing stock to the world. But maybe with Islam out of the way after the G&M war then maybe they gain a stronger foothold and can play one last major role in the world.

But I see the Antichrist being "unreligious," a secular humanist, serving his own agenda as opposed to a religious agenda, I think Obama makes a nice prototype, but the AC will be much, much worse.
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