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Offline Walt  
#1 Posted : Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:07:42 AM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

I thought what Noach posted in Back against the wall made some very insiteful observations, ones that need more examination & discussion, without getting away from dugdoo56's discussion.

Noach wrote:
I hate to be another party crasher in this topic, but I don't remember Abraham asking Yahuweh for a few more years to gently ease away from babylonian religion. Once Yahuweh asked Abraham to walk with Him, Abraham had to make a choice, and it didn't involve taking a wreath and christmas tree with him to make his family feel more comfortable. I don't remeber Hezekiah only removing a few sun god rituals and idols so that the people could ease into a relationship with Yah. The most loving thing we can do is completely break away from pagan observances and let everyone we can know why. I understand we live in a different time, but the examples remain the same. We shouldn't mandate what others do, but we also shouldn't be accepting of christmas elements. I can't stop my wife from putting up a wreath, but I can make sure she knows I don't approve. There isn't much time left. It's important that loved ones know where we stand. We are either with Yahuweh or not.

Love Noach


Great points with Abraham and Hezekiah

If we really understand and comprehend the source and consequences of christianity (and all religions), is it wise to continue to participate and handle?

Do we send a wrong message by trying to both walk in Yahushua's narrowing path and participate with churchianity - "if it was really as bad as you claim, how can you still do it?"
What are the consequences further down the road from our choices in how we act and respond to Yahuweh's call to "come out of her My people"? (look at one consequence: Ishmael)

Do the "in different times" make any difference in how we respond?
Is Yahuweh more tolerant of the things He hates now than He was when Scripture was being recorded? Does He mellow with age? Does ones sincerity and best intentions carry more weight?

Does the "with greater understanding comes greater responsibility" apply to Scripture and prophecy?

If someone (non-family member ie church family) responds defensively to TRUTH, how much time do we spend going in the same circles hoping that they might finally "get it"?
If their heart/mind is settled on their religion - they don't have a "seeking and questioning" mindset - can we make a difference?



Offline RidesWithYah  
#2 Posted : Saturday, December 12, 2009 9:13:07 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Quote:
If we really understand and comprehend the source and consequences of christianity (and all religions), is it wise to continue to participate and handle?


I think a lot of us are struggling with this question.
Adding to the struggle, I just came across this from our friend Paul (1 Corinthians 10):

21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
Offline Y777  
#3 Posted : Monday, April 5, 2010 9:08:53 AM(UTC)
Y777
Joined: 3/20/2010(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: Texas

I would like to hear more on this topic, as I too am coming across this problem now. What to do, what to do?
Yahuweh is faithful and loving beyond my thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions, and petty human notions of what constitutes right and wrong. So high does He soar above all things that I do not even know if proclaiming Him as good is in fact good. It is certainly not adequate. So I am thankful still that He accepts my small sacrifices, my petty praises, that my words reach His mighty ears. Thank you Yahweh. May we all learn what is right in your sight, and not our own.
Offline bigritchie  
#4 Posted : Saturday, July 3, 2010 8:12:21 AM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

Here is how I look at the situation.

I think part of the problem is many people want another "Reformation". But I would point out the "Reformation" was nothing but a mistake. What the reforms should have done was "left" christianity all together.

When it boils down to, christianity is utter pagan sun god worship, virtually everything they teach is a utter lie, the only small thing they do have right is that Yahuwshua was the Messiah, and even then they LIE about his name.

So for me personally, setting foot in a christian church, would be no different then going to a temple of Zeus. Is there some parts of small amounts of truth in the church? Sure. But you know what, Buddhist teach "love thy neighbor as thyself" also, yet christians would call it a false religion because of the non truths. (You would think they would love Buddhist since Buddha was born on December 25th and they celebrate lent)

I refuse to have anything to do with the "Church".

As a side note, I think a big part of the problem of the "Messianic" movement is they are christians playing dress up Jew. They have one foot in Christianity and one foot in Judaism. It goes with the saying "The Pope can parade around in a Tallit with a Torah scroll all he wants, but he is still the Pope"!

Anyways that is my 2 cents. People need to stop trying to reform Babylonian sun god worship, and just leave it.
Offline J&M  
#5 Posted : Saturday, July 3, 2010 8:49:23 AM(UTC)
J&M
Joined: 9/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Eretz Ha'Quodesh

I am convinced that the great problem is that, at the time of the fall, man became a god himself, and that godship means that every action he takes breaks the first commandment, we put our godship, out ability to judge good and evil, before that of Yah

This leves us in a state of always turning everything into a man made religion. And this includes much on this website as Walt notes so bravely.

It was ME in the garden of Eden, I chose the serpent's knowledge of good and evil before that of Yah. I was the one who failed to confront my crime, I was the one who blamed those around me, including YHWH himself.

And, unfortunately, I still have a tendancy to do it all over again, because the god that I am still has not been fully dealt with, I still cling on to him, because he is me and he is what I am familiar with, he is comfortable, he is my existance.

There is a very good reason why the Garden of Eden is given such prominance in scripture, it describes the severence between man and creator, the removal of the nun (seed) from the neshema, the rest of the scriptures are about how that relationship gets repaired. But if you do not relate personally to the fall, then there is no redemption.

Of the two humans involved in the fall, one realized what she had done and took responsibility for it and confessed.

The other blamed everybody but himself.

The seed of the one who confessed has destroyed the problem.

but the other has passed the problem on to all humankind.

I have the same choice, I can pass the problem on and try to share the blame with all those around me, this is called RELIGION.

Or I can take personal responsibility for MY ruinous godship, confess it and participate in the Miqra, where as part of unleavened bread, the seed is separated from the chaff (of mans godship) and is ground, mixed with the leaven of YHWH, baked and waved before YHWH at Shauvot.
Offline Walt  
#6 Posted : Sunday, July 4, 2010 4:25:02 AM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

bigritchie wrote:
Here is how I look at the situation.

I think part of the problem is many people want another "Reformation". But I would point out the "Reformation" was nothing but a mistake. What the reforms should have done was "left" christianity all together.

When it boils down to, christianity is utter pagan sun god worship, virtually everything they teach is a utter lie, the only small thing they do have right is that Yahuwshua was the Messiah, and even then they LIE about his name.

So for me personally, setting foot in a christian church, would be no different then going to a temple of Zeus. Is there some parts of small amounts of truth in the church? Sure. But you know what, Buddhist teach "love thy neighbor as thyself" also, yet christians would call it a false religion because of the non truths. (You would think they would love Buddhist since Buddha was born on December 25th and they celebrate lent)

I refuse to have anything to do with the "Church".

As a side note, I think a big part of the problem of the "Messianic" movement is they are christians playing dress up Jew. They have one foot in Christianity and one foot in Judaism. It goes with the saying "The Pope can parade around in a Tallit with a Torah scroll all he wants, but he is still the Pope"!

Anyways that is my 2 cents. People need to stop trying to reform Babylonian sun god worship, and just leave it.


I'm totally with you on all this Ritchie

We tried a few messy-anic groups on our way out the religious door - we found them as problematic as christianity but with a Hebrew flair and more correct "vocabulary".

When it come to the reformation, and "new" denominations being formed, or new "movements" like home groups or organic church I think of the movie Fools Gold where the character Gemma gets mad at her very rich dad and says she doesn't want his money anymore
"Because I'm cutting myself off from you
I don't want anything from you anymore
Except for food
and clothes
and rent
and like travel
and
I'm totally serious"

They see a few "problem areas" and think if they just strain out some of the issues they've identified, everything will be better
But all they've done is gotten and new improved package but put the same formula and ingredients as the old into their prettier box

They haven't realized or accepted is that what they are trying to fix or correct is rotten to the core
There may have been some wholesome ingredients added to the recipe, but the base formula is 100% pure Babylon thru-and-thru
churchianity - in all it's different religious flavors - is still rooted in dead pagan soil - NO amount of pruning & trimming or reformation will alter that reality

NO aspect of churchianity contains Yah's Kingdom

Though there are some of Yahushua's lost sheep in religion's fields & flocks - and we are to be conduits to get them Yah's voice of Truth calling them out to Himself
Yahushua said His sheep will head His voice - they will leave babylon (this will look different from journey to journey - but which direction is movement taking place is more critical than the pace)

When it comes to interacting with churchianity in order to bring Yah's Voice of Truth, I am reminded of the water life saving training
Reach / Throw / Row / or Go
The more engaging the incursion - the greater the potential for harm to self

Another thought:
Yah didn't have people reshape the Asherah pole - He had them tear them down
You can't reform to correction something rotten to the core
Offline Walt  
#7 Posted : Sunday, July 4, 2010 4:39:17 AM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

Originally Posted by: J& Go to Quoted Post
I am convinced that the great problem is that, at the time of the fall, man became a god himself, and that godship means that every action he takes breaks the first commandment, we put our godship, out ability to judge good and evil, before that of Yah

This leves us in a state of always turning everything into a man made religion. And this includes much on this website as Walt notes so bravely.

It was ME in the garden of Eden, I chose the serpent's knowledge of good and evil before that of Yah. I was the one who failed to confront my crime, I was the one who blamed those around me, including YHWH himself.

And, unfortunately, I still have a tendancy to do it all over again, because the god that I am still has not been fully dealt with, I still cling on to him, because he is me and he is what I am familiar with, he is comfortable, he is my existance.

There is a very good reason why the Garden of Eden is given such prominance in scripture, it describes the severence between man and creator, the removal of the nun (seed) from the neshema, the rest of the scriptures are about how that relationship gets repaired. But if you do not relate personally to the fall, then there is no redemption.

Of the two humans involved in the fall, one realized what she had done and took responsibility for it and confessed.

The other blamed everybody but himself.

The seed of the one who confessed has destroyed the problem.

but the other has passed the problem on to all humankind.

I have the same choice, I can pass the problem on and try to share the blame with all those around me, this is called RELIGION.

Or I can take personal responsibility for MY ruinous godship, confess it and participate in the Miqra, where as part of unleavened bread, the seed is separated from the chaff (of mans godship) and is ground, mixed with the leaven of YHWH, baked and waved before YHWH at Shauvot.


VERY interesting

I am still mulling around (without a conclusion yet) the concept you're presenting about what happened in The Garden and that Eve may have still had access
I've always notice the difference between what Yah delved out in response to what they did - but not to sidetrack here
I like what you said here
Offline bitnet  
#8 Posted : Monday, July 5, 2010 5:58:19 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Personally, I think that it is very difficult to stay in church knowing that almost everything that is done is against Torah. Yes, we have family and friends still attending church but we knew that it was not for us some time ago. We stopped going and do not miss it at all. As for the interacting with family and friends to bring them to Truth, there are plenty more opportunities outside of church. If they are not in your circle outside of church, don't fret... there will be others you can share Torah with along the way. For the most part, staying in church only confuses matters as the others may be the ones thinking that they can hold you back in their world of beliefs. In a nutshell: it is hard to stay in the cooking pot and push others out, but easier when you are out of the pot yourself.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Richard  
#9 Posted : Monday, July 5, 2010 7:23:21 AM(UTC)
Richard
Joined: 1/19/2010(UTC)
Posts: 695
Man
United States

Thanks: 4 times
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bitnet wrote:

... it is very difficult to stay in church knowing that almost everything that is done is against Torah. ...


I found it impossible to stay there. The thought of attending another "worship service" is as repugnant as the idea of visiting a "gentlemen's club": I would just feel nasty and soiled.

We are commanded to leave the deceitful whore of religion. I am persuaded that lingering on the threshold is the same as rejecting the command altogether.

Richard
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#10 Posted : Monday, July 5, 2010 12:55:47 PM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I agree with both you guys lol I just found it harder and harder now to stand up and scream at them, so when we were told to keep it to ourselves or leave - we really didn't need to think much about it...
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Rohn  
#11 Posted : Friday, August 13, 2010 12:13:58 PM(UTC)
Rohn
Joined: 5/1/2009(UTC)
Posts: 45
Location: Goodyear AZ

Never forget the year my dad bought my Grandmother one of those stationary rocking chairs, I was just a kid. Well, he called his brothers and sisters to see if they wanted to chip in and make it a family gift at Christmas. Just about everyone said "yeah, that's a great idea", so he arranged for it to be shipped cross country to Tennessee.
A letter arrived from my Aunt and Uncle, my Uncle drove for Ford and he had told his wife to raise the kids in her faith but at that time of his life cars were his religion. That changed later on. So the letter read "We understand and share the love of Moma, but we cannot join you in your gift giving as we all know that is not something that our Lord ever condoned or practiced. There fore we cannot advance any funds toward the Christmas present."
The letter was a little longer, but that is the part that stuck with me. Although I don't have the answer for what used to be a bright spot in the year. Possibly, my Aunt may have been right about it all along, how it went down was not quite as smooth. Today the corporate, pagan sale-a-thon we call Christmas is practiced in a large percentage of the world. When it comes to one on one with family it can still be one of the toughest times of the year to confront.
A few years ago we let everyone know that we were quite serious about following Yahweh and I sent letters and emails out. Not just before Xmas. I believe it was as school was starting that year. I stated the reasons why and I received some replies, some for and some not. We still give gifts, but not for birthdays and Christmas. School functions, weddings are great times for gift giving.
Offline bigritchie  
#12 Posted : Saturday, August 14, 2010 12:42:21 PM(UTC)
bigritchie
Joined: 4/15/2010(UTC)
Posts: 305
Location: USA

That is the Great thing about Yah.

You give up Christmas, Easter, and the mess, and he gives you 7 Feast!

It does not really bother me as much if my family gets mad. (Could be where I am a former Marine I do not really care, I just say "yes sir" and if people get their religious panties in a wad, they can kiss my you know what hehe)

I think there is a fine line in the sand. And my family are those who do the will of Yah and keep his commandments. Yah's spirit is thicker then blood I always say.

Something that has been on my mind lately is this. I refuse to set foot in a Christian church or have anything to do with Christianity. But we have a very old relative who will pass soon, and quite frankly I really do not even want to set foot in a church for his funeral. I know the family will go nuts, but at the same time, as Christians, I hardly doubt they would go to a funeral in a Satanic church.

Would Messiah go to a pagan temple and pay respects for a family member? Would Keffa?.................I just do not know.

I know I would rather piss the entire world of and obey Yah.
Offline cgb2  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, December 15, 2010 7:41:13 AM(UTC)
cgb2
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Location: Colorado

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This Xmas parody is very clever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yadad1NGs4mec
Offline Royce  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, December 15, 2010 7:15:55 PM(UTC)
Royce
Joined: 9/2/2010(UTC)
Posts: 225
Man
Location: USA

bigritchie wrote:
That is the Great thing about Yah.

You give up Christmas, Easter, and the mess, and he gives you 7 Feast!

It does not really bother me as much if my family gets mad. (Could be where I am a former Marine I do not really care, I just say "yes sir" and if people get their religious panties in a wad, they can kiss my you know what hehe)

I think there is a fine line in the sand. And my family are those who do the will of Yah and keep his commandments. Yah's spirit is thicker then blood I always say.

Something that has been on my mind lately is this. I refuse to set foot in a Christian church or have anything to do with Christianity. But we have a very old relative who will pass soon, and quite frankly I really do not even want to set foot in a church for his funeral. I know the family will go nuts, but at the same time, as Christians, I hardly doubt they would go to a funeral in a Satanic church.

Would Messiah go to a pagan temple and pay respects for a family member? Would Keffa?.................I just do not know.

I know I would rather piss the entire world of and obey Yah.

nice work bro.
Offline Richard  
#15 Posted : Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:35:10 PM(UTC)
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bigritchie wrote:
Yah's spirit is thicker then blood I always say.


I agree with you there, BR! I wish I had thought of that!

Richard
Offline pauljw  
#16 Posted : Sunday, December 19, 2010 3:46:40 AM(UTC)
pauljw
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Posts: 26
Location: Indiana

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"bigritchie wrote: Yah's spirit is thicker then blood I always say."


That is a great quote! I'll be using that one... if BR doesn't mind.

I didn't find leaving the church to be problem, I had left it years ago. I was raised Presbyterian and even as a youngster in Sunday school felt that there was something missing. I never could figure out what. My parents were devout christians, two of the most wonderful people on God's green earth. I had an almost Mayberry, RFD childhood. I'm soooo angry that these wonderful people may have lost their souls to Satan because of the untruths taught to them in their church.

But where I'm having issues is this is our first "unChristmas" season, our daughter is 10 (well, will be next month.) She's being a real trooper about the whole thing, but Christmas is just so completely intertwined in our society and school that I decided to let her down easy. We told her that this is going to be the last year she participates in gift exchange at school. She knows that we're not celebrating at home, we donated our xmas tree and ornaments to goodwill, but life at school revolves around Christmas this time of year and it's so difficult for her. It's difficult for all of us, we get cards from friends and family and feel guilty if we ignore their well wishes.

So we plan to use this coming year as a time to explain to family and friends that we still love them, but we are no longer participating in any of these pagan celebrations. I expect that we'll loose some of them. But, I can't put my immediate family's spiritual wellbeing in jeopardy.

I pray that Yah will be patient with me and over the coming months make me more knowledgeable and able to better explain our beliefs.

Paul
Offline Daniel  
#17 Posted : Sunday, December 19, 2010 4:12:11 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

pauljw wrote:
But where I'm having issues is this is our first "unChristmas" season, our daughter is 10 (well, will be next month.) She's being a real trooper about the whole thing, but Christmas is just so completely intertwined in our society and school that I decided to let her down easy. We told her that this is going to be the last year she participates in gift exchange at school. She knows that we're not celebrating at home, we donated our xmas tree and ornaments to goodwill, but life at school revolves around Christmas this time of year and it's so difficult for her.



Two words: "Home" + "school"

;-)

pauljw wrote:

It's difficult for all of us, we get cards from friends and family and feel guilty if we ignore their well wishes.

So we plan to use this coming year as a time to explain to family and friends that we still love them, but we are no longer participating in any of these pagan celebrations. I expect that we'll loose some of them. But, I can't put my immediate family's spiritual wellbeing in jeopardy.



Same for us. Be cool. Don't push too hard.

Do the same thing the disciples would do on 12/25/2010, go out for Chinese food, then to the movies.

Movie recommendation: Voyage of the Dawn Treader is playing this year. The movie has a great line at the end: Aslyan tells the kids that they have to go back to their world and learn His name there! LOVED IT!!!!



For YY'ers who have no sense of humor or imagination, Narnia is ALLEGORY, not scripture. Take it as such!
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
Offline RidesWithYah  
#18 Posted : Sunday, December 19, 2010 11:29:14 AM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Quote:
Do the same thing the disciples would do on 12/25/2010, go out for Chinese food, then to the movies.


Not this year they wouldn't.
The 25th is a Holy Day, a Sabbath.
They'd be at home, or at the synagogue -- "on the Sabbath they rested, in obedience to the commandment."
Offline Daniel  
#19 Posted : Monday, December 20, 2010 3:49:01 AM(UTC)
Daniel
Joined: 10/24/2010(UTC)
Posts: 694
Location: Florida

RidesWithYah wrote:
Not this year they wouldn't.
The 25th is a Holy Day, a Sabbath.
They'd be at home, or at the synagogue -- "on the Sabbath they rested, in obedience to the commandment."


Sundown is at 17:30 in North America. The group from our synagogue is going to the 18:00 show.

See you there?

;-)
Nehemiah wrote:
"We carried our weapons with us at all times, even when we went for water" Nehemiah 4:23b

We would do well to follow Nehemiah's example! http://OurSafeHome.net
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