I found the "Forgotten Commandment" interesting - you can watch it here.

Here is a short .PDF booklet dealing with the Sabbath. If you have friends that you would like to know more about the Sabbath - this might work well. (Note: the writers mistakenly use the terms Jesus, Lord, Christ, etc.)

I have often heard it said that the 10 Commandments are just that - 10 Commandnents, not 9 Commandments and a "suggestion".

-Yada

Edited by user Sunday, August 12, 2007 6:22:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Tiffany, you see this over and over again. It's like they don't take Yah serious. We might be "under grace" but like Paul said God forbid you sin to make grace abound!!! The consequences of the OC for not keeping the Sabbath were severe.

I dunno, we used to go to a "Bible church" and i can imagine that those types would be more receptive to the idea. As long as its "scriptural" seems to be the mantra in those type churches.
Even still, they have been used to the Sunday formula for some time and may not be receptive to it.

We actually searched in the area that we are in and found zilch.

I think this actually points towards an even bigger challenge, which is, saying everything that is in YY and beyond in about 30 seconds and still coming off as being credible without alienating the person.

I've oft wondered how do you guys approach people with this - is there a top 10 list of things that work, things that don't, etc. For example, when you talk to hard core Catholics (which I used to be) they often have this force field that comes up if you say anything bad about the cahtolic church in the first minute or two of the conversation. The pope is part of system that.... LalalaLAALALALAL - I'm not listening... something like that.

So if your goal is to get Sabbath worship i.e. teach the commandments, then it may be counterproductive to start bashing the pope the first 10 seconds of the conversation, but on the other hand a picture of the pope kissing the Koran, well that goes miles and you don't have to say a thing, it speaks for itself.

Then there is a similar phenomenon with protestants. It usually goes like this for me, I may open with .. the Sabbath was clearly celebrated throughout scripture and I don't think our God would have made such a fuss out of it if he didn't think it was important. Then I get countered with, well how do you know which day is actually the Sabbath, what about the early church fathers.... lalalalal... I'm not listening. I'm currently experiencing this phenomenon on my in laws side.

I can't say that I blame them, for I was pretty much the same way, but what I wonder is how to reach them on this point. What are some questions that could be asked that would "plant the seed" enough to get something like this rolling? Do you guys have an Top 10 list of facts that hit hard and fast, make a personal connection, and can be quickly verified using just English scripture. I think that may be one way to achieve the objective you are talking about.

Thanks, Theo. Sounds like your Messianic friends have it mostly right, and that's a rare and wonderful thing in this day and age. I guess what I'm looking for is a way to encourage sincere, well-meaning Sunday worshippers to reexamine established Christian tradition in light of what scripture actually says. Most of them (and that used to include me) have no earthly idea that their practices are not one hundred percent in alignment with the Word of God. It just never occurs to them. And in the rare instances when it does occur to them, few are the pastors/elders/influential laymen who know how to correct the situation. And fewer still have the courage to implement that knowledge. Nobody listens to me, of course---I'm just that guy with all the odd ideas. Don't ask ken. With him, there's no such thing as a short answer. :-)

kp

Theophilus,

Regarding sharing successful strategies, I guess I have noticed a couple of patterns that seem to work okay, but usually my objective is to just plant the seed. I feel like there are probably some questions that people have always had that are unresolved. I generally try to focus on those. Here is probably way too long of an answer to your request to share strategies.

Background
For die hard Catholics, all I can say is be careful where you step. I know this because I was one. It is a bit of a force field and sometimes information that comes up. Most of it stems from one key word - authority. This comes from the myriad of protestant offspring and this person will likely have concluded that the RCC has a monopoly on our Father because of the indoctrination, years of tradition, and misinformation. To better understand this, it may be helpful to understand where I came from. I was in RCC school for 13 years of my life. I never bothered to pick up the Word and read it except for Revelation and a few bible studies here and there with a deacon that I was fond of. Anyway, as I started a family I became concerned from my kiddos upbringing, etc. so we started going back to church. There was deacon that I had always been a big fan of, who held bible studies, etc and would often ruffle feathers in the local diocese. He would do his homily and say that all the traditions in the RCC meant nothing if you didn't have a relationship with our Creator. This was the one point he kept trying to get across. Well one day he offered to do a study of the Prophets. He basically walked us through some of the anger spells in the Old Covenant - I was thinking man, this God is one angry dude, but then.... we got to Jeremiah 31:31 and all of a sudden a seed was planted. I will no longer remember their sin. It was the most poetic ending to a story I ever heard.

So I decided I needed to do my own Bible study. I started from the beginning, by the time I got to Yah'shua's assessment of the Pharisees I was in tears for days. Then I started to see some of the patterns, but I still had that nagging question.... what is the "one true church" and it seemed like the RCC was the only likely candidate given that there were so many differing theologies out there, and it seemed to have the longest history and in my mind at the time, and probably had much more time to study and understand everything than some of the newer churches.

After that, I started trying to "prove" to myself that the RCC had authority and then I wound up proving the opposite. Then sometime around last October I started a search for the "One True God" and the "true meaning of life", stuff like that. I realized the questions I had been asking all my life were the wrong questions. It wasn't what was the one true church, but rather Who is God?. That there was a creator, etc. I never really had a problem with, and I don't think you'll have this struggle with most RCC, but what you will have is the taking of selected verses, but never really getting into the subtle details.

Then I found myself in a Bible church as my marriage was struggling. They went over Song of Solomon in excruciating detail and I loved every minute of it. There were things in there that I never knew. Through my own efforts many parts seemed quite boring. But once that dissection of the words occurs, it just felt like a an irresistible draw.

Paint the Word in a New Light
So the question becomes, what was it that got to me? Partially our Father by allowing my marriage to hit some snags perhaps, but I also think the uncovering of Wisdom that I had never known was in the Word revealed through the analysis and uncovering of details. The key word being never known. You can read it all day long I think and it may just sound like a story, but when subtle details are presented, that make sense, that add up, well....

So how do you apply this to other RCC? Well, some of them get it I think. Some of them even call him Yahweh believe it or not, but if you can show them things that they never knew were in there.... well, that's how you breech the shield.

So how do you break the ice? Well find an interest point in the conversation... the Iraq war, History, the differences between various languages... then slowly transition into the differences in the languages behind the scriptures, and talk about some of the things you've found almost matter of factly, but not shoving it down their throat, if you do that, congratulations, you may have just helped to destroyed a soul, perhaps not culpable for it, but none the less, a scary position to be in.

Prayer / Teeny Tiny Miracles

Now there is another tactic involving just basic prayer, but I have to admit I may be getting prayers answered because of my new found faith or something. I've had what I consider many minor miracles, no parting the waters mind you, but things that just seem too "out of the blue" to be coincidence. The challenge in this area is distinguishing between coincidences and what seems to be answers to prayer. Personally, I've found that the answers to my prayers tend to line up in either a series of weird coincidences, or the timing is just impeccable. So what I do is tell the person that I'm going to pray for something, but I'm not sure if our Father will answer or not, but we'll see and you can make your own decision if you think I'm off the deep end here. For example, my brother and his wife had been wanting to have a kid for about two years, but were not having any luck. They were planning on going to fertility doctor, but hadn't quite gotten there.

I told him I'm still learning, but we'll see if our Father will place some favor here. So I said let's try to do what they did a long time ago in the scriptures. I laid my hands on him, kinda the way they write about it at least in English translations, and said a silent prayer from deep down inside somewhere. Lo and behold, he calls me up one month later (the time required for her cycle to have passed). They were with child. Now when I prayed, I basically said, I'm not trying to test you or do this for me, but if it will help spread knowledge of you, can you grant a favor with my brother here. Then when it happened, my brother started to believe. So... that is one way I guess.

Planting Seeds

Most folks I run into, believe in a God of some sort, it just seems to be common sense, but with atheists and the like, that is a whole different ball game. What I've come to realize is that all of us have our own little decision trees and the the quality of the information in that tree will be biased in a certain way depending upon a person's course through life. What I try to think of it is, what seed can I plant today, that will get watered down the road? Usually language is my angle of attack so far. So they'll make an argument is based on English translation. I'll say, umm, ohh.. you're using an English version, well no wonder... and just move on. Plant the seed. As long as I can plant the seed, I figure mission is accomplished, because otherwise you'll sit there debating all day and potentially drive them further away, as I had to learn the hard way.


Now where am I struggling, well with "Christians" that seem to understand, but are reluctant to let go of Christmas, etc. These are my family members. What I've gotten so far, is well, "don't you think that if Jesus thought that was important he would have straightened them out back then" and a serious of erroneous statements of fact based on what they were taught. This is perhaps the most frustrating.

Shohn, I think you raise a valid point in that a person needs to make their own conclusion in order to change a long held pattern or conviction. I agree that bluntly telling someone the truth while still true may not be the most effective approach in discussing what Yahuweh's Scriptures say and leading them to accept the truth of His word. I'm open to exchanging experiences if we can each benefit in better reaching people.

I think it would be a good idea to take a real hard look at Yahshua's approach to different people---all of 'em "sinners"---in different situations. Yes, He never pussyfooted around when it came to the truth, but His delivery varied a great deal, depending upon the attitude of the one being addressed. To those who knew they had fallen short of Yahweh's perfect standard (Zaccheus or the woman caught in adultery, for example), His words were soft and encouraging: Your faith has saved you...Go and sin no more---that sort of thing. But to those who refused to admit their sinful state and subsequent need for a savior, those who pridefully conducted their affairs as if God's law was a game and the winner got to look down his nose at everybody else, He was harsh and confrontational---truth be told, He was downright rude.

Following His example, then, we need not candy-coat our proclamations of truth to religious hirelings, professional politicians, and other people whose goal is to wield power and influence over their fellow human beings. Sometimes a blunt instrument is the proper tool for the job. But honest seekers, even those who have been disastrously deceived and victimized by false teachers in the past, deserve to see our softer side, to hear our quiet, reasonable, and conciliatory voice. I'm not suggesting we compromise the truth, only that we deliver it with kid gloves, not an iron fist. 'Course, in order to deliver the truth at all, we need to know it ourselves. But in my experience, one new to the faith, when led by Yahweh's Spirit, can exhibit a remarkable measure of the Spirit's power. No one was ever pushed into heaven, convinced to love Yahweh, or debated into faith. Real knowledge follows faith. Without the catalyst of the Holy Spirit, knowledge is an inert substance.

kp

I know of a church who changed from sunday to saturday.

They are called Fathers House, and they are based in Mold, Wales. They do have a website, but I cant remeber what it is, and it wont google lol

They are a little obsessed with Israel, its almost like they were on the right road, but then suddenly just became unheathly obssessed with the Jewish-ness. They are a people with a great heart, but I feel they could benifit from realising they arnt ment to be Jewish...

They still say Lord, Jesus and the like - although they have "Yeshua" written on some "praise flags".

when they stood up and changed from sunday to saturday they lost most of the members, and there was alot of upset. But they are now growing!

I'm sorry Shohn, but you may have me mistaken for someone else. I don't recall mentioning having a two hour recipe to "prove" such matters. IF someone does I'd be interested in hearing about their approach.

Edited by user Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:51:47 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Shohn, here's a passage that may help:



It is my opinion that these instructions (originally given to the twelve) are primarily meant for the 144,000 witnesses who will operate during the Tribulation. But here's what I want you to notice: because they will have very little time to become "steeped in the Word" when they're sealed and put to their task (remember, these folks have missed the rapture!) they will find themselves in very much the same situation you're in---being compelled to witness, but having very little formal training. The message is clear: follow your calling. Yahweh's Spirit will guide you, and tell you what to say when the time comes. There is no magic formula except for this: Trust Yahweh.

kp

sjohn,

Yahuweh and Yahushua and the Set Apart Spirit are all one so being guided by the spirit is being guided by Yahuweh.

How it works for me is this; In the morning when I get up I ask my dad (Yahuweh) to lead me to someone who needs to know Him and who He has prepared. Then I go about my business. As the day unfolds people will come to me and strike up conversations that will inveriably turn to Yahuweh. When this happens I just relax and let Yahuweh do the driving because He knows where He wants to go with each person. He gives me words and scriptures that apply to each person so that His purpose is accomplished.

All of us who started out as christians have been taught that we need to be doing something for God so we think we need to drive. We really need to learn to trust Yahuweh as we would our closest friend, or even more, tune our spiritual ear to the Set Apart Spirit and sit back and enjoy the ride.

What is a loose cannon, anyway? It's simply one that's following a different "Law" than the men who wish to control it, the law of gravity or momentum---you know, stuff Isaac Newton would have been familiar with. It's no different with us. Most people think the laws of the land or the laws of polite society trump all, but we believers know and respond to a higher Law---the indwelling Spirit of God. The sailors we "cannons" encounter as we roam the deck think we're out of control, but it's not true. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, right? We're simply being acted upon by a different agent than they are.

kp

I feel a lot like shohn does; I am new and I am anxious to contribute but more often than not, my witness turns out clumsy. The last thing I want to do is turn those who don't yet have the truth away from it. I pray for wisdom every day and I find that when I get in trouble most is when I am trying to be over-persuasive; forceful. I have faith that as I grow in Him, I will also grow in being attuned to letting the Spirit work through me instead of me blocking the process. In the meantime - and this is my main concern - I feel that I let many opportunities to witness go by me in the fear that I will come across wrong. Ultimately faith, trust and time - as well as looking for opportunities to give my witness an opportunity to "work out" so it can become stronger - is the recipe I try to follow

coool :)

Thanks for sharing dude - that is a familier story from my side :)

Jeff,

I do that quite often, but I guess what I look for is the "two way" dialogue. Now don't get me wrong, I've seen way too many wacky coincindences that just seem to have no other explanation that he's trying to tell me something, but at the same time I feel like a lot of the times I do all the talking, so I try to just sit there and just shut up and see if he'll pop something into my head hoping usually for something I would have had no reason to think up by myself that way I have some assurance that it is Him and not me. I'm just wanting to be careful, because I've never heard voices or anything like that, but it just seems like the prophets must have fasted, wore sack cloth, etc. for a purpose - to better take their mind off this world. Further, it seems like scripture warns about this sort of thing somewhere. Basically don't go around saying or claiming to hear our Father if you don't, because if you do hear his voice, you will know it for sure.

Think of John the Baptist maybe. So here he is out in the middle of nowhere for awhile, no human role model to speak of, and it seems like he just came up with all that stuff by himself. Revelation somehow. Now it hasn't been shown to me that my path is to start popping june bugs and locusts - I'm okay with that. What I seek is the two way dialogue, but I know I'll probably never have what John the Baptist had by any stretch of the means since he had a very specific purpose; however, I still want to work on the two way dialogue.

What I've got so far is the following:

Seeming "Revelations" after meditation, but could just as easily labeled random thoughts.
Once in a blue moon my wife will get a dream related to something I prayed about.
Other coincidences that relate to recent prayers
Prayers answered with impeccable timing
New insights in scripture (Eureka moments)
Some kind of "feeling" not quite like the conscience that guides my conversations
A "gut" feeling that seems to tell me whether something is rightt or wrong about our God, but that could be just cultural bias after years of what I've been taught (e.g, God = Love is a big one). Many times my gut feelings seem to go against what I know of scripture and I don't know why so I spend weeks proving myself wrong and still don't think I've arrived at a satisfactory answer at times. It seems to be easier when I just sit there and shut up, and a solution will pop into my head after awhile or some kind of coincidence will happen.

So many people say they are guided by the spirit, then you've got all manner of folks trying to speak in tongues, faith healers (real or unreal -I'm not sure), stiggmata stuff, group prayers that result in medical miracles, etc. I've had people who have never even picked up a bible and believe it is a hoax tell me about some of the things they've experienced, particularly things related to those who have passed, wacky coincidences, that just seemed too "orchestrated" for it to be chance. Sadly it's the old, yeah I believe in God, but not the God of Israel

Your son knowing that that man was going to come talk to you, that felt real. He couldn't have made that up himself. I've heard of that happening to a couple of other folks and I know one person in particular who says she has actually seen one vision of Him and has reliably predicted the future to me several times. Do I need miracles to be convinced, nah, I'm good there, but I think it helps to hear about what others have experienced just as a basis for comparison.

sjohn,

I have to express two points to you.

1. I have never heard the audible voice of Yahuweh as far as I know. That doesn't keep me from believing that He speaks directly to me when I speak directly to Him. I knpw for certain that He does.

2. I do not believe there is such a thing as coincidence. Coincidence is a deception of the "church" to keep the people confused and bewildered. We are called to come out from among them and be separate.

As an added note, John "the Baptizer" didn't have something that you do. He lived and walked and ministered before Pentacost when the Set Apart Soirit came to make her abode with us as believers. It may seem like a small thing or a case of semantics, but it is probably one of the biggest things there is for those who believe.

KP,
You are absolutely correct when you say that there are many messianic congregations that worry way too much about being "Jewish". You can see that at

http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/

When I read this I was absolutely sick.
I completely admit most of them scream "HEY!!!!, WE'RE JEWISH!!!!, and we believe in yeshua...
But, I will say that there are many many wonderful messianic congregations out in the world that have and absolute fire for Yahuweh. They may not be 100 percent correct, but they get as close as any established congregations I have ever seen.

I would say that the unaffiliated congregations (those that are not affiliated with UMJC, IMJB...and so on and so forth) seem to be the best. So that's my advice to everyone out there....if you want to find fellowship you may have only two options. Start your own house congregation or find an unaffiliated messianic congregation.

graftedin.com is a very good one. It is the congregation of Kehilat T'nuvah. They do sparingly use the name of Yahuweh, and their messages can be wonderful. They just did a big series on their Torah talk show about their revulsion towards the idea of rabbinicly sanctioned conversions for gentile believers, which I found to be so heartening. They offer full participation of all believers whether Jew or Gentile in the congregation. They aren't perfect...but then again...nobody is.
Shalom

Matthew,

Re. witnessing: You have the heart of a Berean. May Yah bless you!

CK