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Offline Noach  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 7:01:38 PM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127

I had an interesting conversation with two Jehovah Witness' tonight. One of their major tenets is that "Jesus" was not "god" (They were obviously hooked on replacement names, especially Jehovah). He was Yahuwah's actual son born into this world by Yahuwah. As His son, he came in His authority and thus was able to die for us. Yahuchanan (John) 14:28 was used to try to prove their points. Have any of you had any dealings with Jehovah's Witness'? If so, have you been able to break through, and what did you use to get through?

Noach
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:37:41 AM(UTC)
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Noach wrote:
I had an interesting conversation with two Jehovah Witness' tonight. One of their major tenets is that "Jesus" was not "god" (They were obviously hooked on replacement names, especially Jehovah). He was Yahuwah's actual son born into this world by Yahuwah. As His son, he came in His authority and thus was able to die for us. Yahuchanan (John) 14:28 was used to try to prove their points. Have any of you had any dealings with Jehovah's Witness'? If so, have you been able to break through, and what did you use to get through?

Noach


Ive had many dealing with em - but not since I have been relased from the current malayse that is Christianity. So I look forward to meeting up with some again :D

you can kinda pull the rug from under their religion by asking them the name of God, and then proving its not Jehovah... :D
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Offline Devildog  
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 4:56:53 AM(UTC)
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Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
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Location: Florida

I enjoy their visits and invite them back everytime. They are the only ones who seem willing to sit down and look at what God has to say on the topic. The guy who comes to my house is pretty knowledgable about scripture, so it is challenging to sit with him, and I like that. We have some very profitable meetings. I think he has a new outlook on who the 144,00 are now LOL.
I asked him directly: Is "Jesus" our savior/Messiah? He says "yes". I ask if He is the only begotten of Yahuweh, and he says "yes", so if their "tenet" is that "Jesus" is "not God", then this guys is either wrong about his own religion or I need to ask my question in a different way-which I will next time we meet. I find that rather than refuting what they say, combatively, I like to present a verse(or 10 LOL) that runs counter to their claims. To believe what they claim, they must discount large portions of scripture, so I like pointing to that. After a few, they realize that they are simply excusing away verse after verse. It seems to be more effective to just let them realize their folly for themselves.
I will be prepared next time they visit with a mountain of evidence of Yahushua's divinity. It'll probably be the last visit from this group of them, but I hope not.
Offline shalom82  
#4 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2007 10:01:58 AM(UTC)
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My grandather who was a footwashin' baptist used to invite them in for a chat and a coffee. Even as a Christian with all of the flaws that came with it my Grandfather would discuss with them on that point of a hereditary demigod or however you want to put it, and he used the scriptures, which I don't think they are used to. After a couple of visits they abruptly left and never came back. I think that Jehovah's Witnesses prey on confused and needy individuals to fill their ranks. The anti-missionaries accuse us of the same, but there is one small difference. Our message is true and their system is inherently flawed.

My family has Levite (thus Lewis) and Yahudi blood in our geneaology. I am happy though that somewhere along the line it got all mixed up and we became christians. Not because Christianity is correct or anything of that nature, I just don't now if we would have been able to overcome the hurdle of religious judaism or for that matter secular judaism. My Grandfather loved Israel and the Yahudim and my father says that he had a lot of Christianity figured out for what it was. I don't know why he didn't expose it or change the way he lived, I guess it was fear of loss or stigma. But, here I am, my Grandfather's legacy, picking up where he left off. Truly Yahuweh is great.

Edited by user Saturday, November 10, 2007 11:59:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Offline Mike  
#5 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2008 6:38:14 AM(UTC)
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I have a cousin who is a Jehovah's Witness. Does anyone have any more advice on how to get through to JWs? They have so many strange ideas that I don't where to start. When I talk to her, we have good conversations but we will start on one topic and go off on a tangent. I am going to try and give her a CD with all of the YY, FH, and TOM .PDFs and .MP3s but I don't know if she will read or listen to any of it. I need a way to get her curious or interested in reading or investigating it for herself. Also, they have their own Bible which is a "little" different.

Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2008 8:53:55 AM(UTC)
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Mike wrote:
I have a cousin who is a Jehovah's Witness. Does anyone have any more advice on how to get through to JWs? They have so many strange ideas that I don't where to start. When I talk to her, we have good conversations but we will start on one topic and go off on a tangent. I am going to try and give her a CD with all of the YY, FH, and TOM .PDFs and .MP3s but I don't know if she will read or listen to any of it. I need a way to get her curious or interested in reading or investigating it for herself. Also, they have their own Bible which is a "little" different.

Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike


I would take them by surprise lol.

don't come from the "Christian" standpoint, don't even mention you are a Christian - they have 1001 answers for Christians programmed into their heads, and can be quite aggressive in arguments. They also close up if they think you are a Christian, they wont listen to a word you say, because you are from Satan.

Agree with them. That always catches them off guard, and allows them to relax a little. I find that if you agree on things relating to their non-observance of the pagan feasts, that Yahushua was hung on a upright stake and not a cross, and so on, they will think you are more on their side. Also if you can back this up with some practical Greek examples you can help them understand things that they would just get from watchtower.

Now depending on what stage in the conversation you are at, you could hit em with the question about Jehovah. You can then explain that it isn't His Name, and you can go on to explain why that is using Hebrew and Paleo Hebrew. You can also show them the front of many translations explaining what has happened with the Name and explain how Jehovah came into existence, you can even empathise with the fact that at the time, Jehovah would have been probably the best and closest thing they had - because of the Masorite "errors", and vowel pointing. If you are able to explain to them and show them on a bit of paper, then you could open their minds a little. Successfully showing them that the Name of God isn't Jehovah would pull the rug from under them, as they base a lot of what they believe in the fact that God has one Name alone and that Name is Jehovah - its a main argument with the Christians - who would say that "god has many names".

Unfortunately most of them are so blind already that they would go down kicking and screaming...
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Offline Mike  
#7 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2008 1:11:17 PM(UTC)
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Hi Robski,

Thanks for the reply. We have already discussed that Yahuweh is the correct pronunciation and Jehovah isn't correct because there is no "J" sound in Hebrew. And also that "Jesus" isn't correct but Yahushua is correct. We have already discussed why Christmas and Easter have pagen origins and seem to agree there. And Yahushua was hung on an upright pole, stauros. Although they use the word "impale" instead of "hung" which gives me the vision of a shish kabob instead of being nailed to a pole. She keeps talking about the "Kingdom" but I don't think it is the millenial kingdom. Also 1914 is significant to them but I haven't gotten her to explain that yet. I remember KP listed that year as one of their predictions for the return of "Jesus" which also included 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1984. They don't understand the 144,000 either. I think that they think they are the 144,000. She seems to think that the tribulation already started. Any other advice?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#8 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2008 10:08:11 PM(UTC)
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Well I know they kinda of have a ranking system, that "works" will increase your rank. You are supposed to do your "works" until you are in the 144,000 bracket - and then you can rule over earth with "Jesus". One of the main "works" they do is knock on peoples doors giving them watchtower.
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Offline Mike  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:01:05 PM(UTC)
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Swalchy, Thanks for the link. That helped explain some things.
Robski, Thanks for the info on "ranks", I think they call them "classes". Where did they come up with that? Not from the Scriptures!
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:22:34 PM(UTC)
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Mike wrote:
Swalchy, Thanks for the link. That helped explain some things.
Robski, Thanks for the info on "ranks", I think they call them "classes". Where did they come up with that? Not from the Scriptures!


I think they came up with it through logical reasoning. They start at the 144,000 in rev, notice how they get a lot of stuff, then figure out a way of becoming one of the 144,000...

wow that sounds even more stupid when you think about it... lol
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Offline BiynaYahu  
#11 Posted : Friday, June 6, 2008 3:47:07 PM(UTC)
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They believe that the 144,000,000 are an annointed group, the spirit filled ones, and that they will rule with "Jesus" in heaven during the 1000 year reign. After the 1000 years they will return to live forever on a paradise earth with everyone elso who is saved. I hate to tell you guys, but the reason the JWs are you scary is how right they are. Although I feel the 144,000 are those annointed so survive the tribulation and enter the kingdom without tasting death. Correct me if I'm wrong. And may Yahuweh our dad enlighten us in his wisdom, and truth, I was on my way to becoming a Jehovah's Witness at one time and I still study with them as a way of ministering to them, I feel that is when they are most vulnerable because if you broach it the right way and come with proper evidence they are obligated to try and answer your question and therefore must think over your evidence. I as of yet really haven't made any headway, but I admit it's my own lack of knowledge and effort that is the cause of that. I know enough truth to know what's wrong, but not enough to present what is right. I am actually going to ask a local pastor if he'd be willing to study the Jehovah's witness' "What does the Bible Really Teach?" book. I think it will give me a good chance to get out the greek and hebrew with him. As well as some scholastic tomes. He seems intellectually honest to me, and it is only that the evidence has never really been provided to him without the Christian filter over it. Anyway, I pray to our dad will guide us all by his set-apart spirit in our attempts to correct those enslaved by religion. Ame'n

Peace,
Mike Browell.
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence.
Offline kp  
#12 Posted : Saturday, June 7, 2008 5:19:55 AM(UTC)
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Believe it or not, most of the attributes we (humans) ascribe to the 144,000 are pure extrapolation: we know very little about them directly from scripture. And the folks (like the JWs) who are trying to "become" them invariably ignore what's actually there and cling to their fond wishes instead.

They're introduced in Revelation 7:1-8, where we learn (1) that they're Israelites, (2) 12,000 each from twelve tribes of Israel (including Levi and two tribes from Joseph; the tribe of Dan is missing from the list), and (3) they're all "sealed" from harm sometime early in the game, evidently after the rapture (since they're left behind) but before the Tribulation's nastiness (the harming of the "earth, sea, and trees" by the angels tasked to wrath) gets underway.

Then, in Revelation 14:1-5, we're told that (1) they all make it through the Tribulation alive, for they're seen standing on Mt. Zion with the returned King Yahshua; (2) they have the Lamb's Father's name (Yahuweh) "written" on their foreheads---which is a component of their having been sealed; and (3) they have an exclusive mode of praise, called "singing a new song...which only they could learn." (4) They are said to be "redeemed from the earth," though this is not said to be an exclusive condition: one third of the nation of Israel's mortals will be redeemed as well (Zechariah 13:8-9), and there will be gentile redeemed (called "sheep" as opposed to goats in Matthew 25:31-46) as well---the ekklesia of repentant Laodicea. (5) The 144,000 are then said to be "virgins, not defiled by women," from which we can deduce that they're all men (and we can surmise that they're young for the most part---in their teens at the time of the rapture, I'd guess). This kinda leaves the JW ladies, the majority of the door-to-door crew, out in the cold. But see II Corinthians 11:2 for a metaphorical approach to the whole virginity thing. (6) The record then reiterates their status as "redeemed," and calls them "firstfruits to God," perhaps indicating (though we can't be dogmatic) that they are the first post-rapture believers. (7) Finally, it is said that they display no guile or deceit: they are "without fault before the throne of God." That, of course, is a condition all the redeemed share by virtue of Yahshua's grace, but we're talking about Tribulation populations here. At one point, this quality will be non-existent in the earth.

Note that although the 144,000 have a special rapport with the Messiah, they are never said to be "rulers with Jesus" over the earth in any exclusive way. Those named as "rulers" in the millennial age include (1) the twelve apostles, who will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel; (2) The resurrected David, who will serve as a "prince" in Jerusalem; and (3) the saints in general, raptured and returned with the King, who are said to be "kings and priests" in their own right, "judging the nations" during the Millennium.

Are the 144,000 mentioned anywhere else in scripture? I believe it's possible (though I can't prove it) that the instructions given to the seventy in Luke 10:1-24 and to the twelve in Matthew 10, Mark 6, and Luke 9 and 12, are written primarily for the 144,000 of the Tribulation. Look specifically at the timing promise in Matthew 10:23---"You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

kp
Offline kleeb  
#13 Posted : Saturday, June 7, 2008 1:03:29 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 3/28/2008(UTC)
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Here's a link to an article that addresses many things that are brought up in this topic. It is a long read and contains some thoughts about scriptural timeline that I have never heard before. Much of it makes sense, but most of it I can't wrap my puny brain around to say wether it is true or false. I've read most of it three times. I'd like to know what some of you think who know Old Testament scripture better than me. Lee http://www.aoy.info/wst_page4.html
Offline bitnet  
#14 Posted : Saturday, June 7, 2008 9:12:09 PM(UTC)
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Posts: 1,120

Kleeb,

I am most uncomfortable when people use Scripture and Abba Yahweh to further ideas about supremacy, whether religious, racial, political or otherwise. How does one deal with a passage like this from the site you referred to?

Quote:
There is a big problem in believing Isayah 65:17-25 as it is taught by the leaders of the counterfeit evangel. They do not believe the new earth will be as Isa 65:17-25 describes, because they have been taught to believe differently. They believe and have been taught that in the new earth there will be no death or childbearing, but as you can see, there will be death and childbearing according to both Isayah and Zecharyah. We will speak about Zecharyah later. What people do not understand about “Yahweh” is that He has always wanted a special; chosen people known as the “Elect People” to serve him as others serve them. This means that His people will always rule over what is known as “Gentiles.” who live long lives, and then they die. However, those who have been taught to believe otherwise cannot understand this fact. The following scripture from Isayah (Zecharyah and John later) proves that there are two groups of people in the time of the new earth. One is known as “my people” (the nations) and the other is known as my chosen ones.

No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands. Isa 65:22

According to Isayah, people in the new earth will be living in the very houses they build, and eat the very food they grow, and even have children, then die at a very old age. “For their days are as the days of a tree“. Then Isayah goes on to say the chosen (those already having eternal life) will long enjoy the works of “their” hands. The things the chosen ones will long enjoy, will be the tithes of those who live long lives and then die. For we know that this is speaking of two different people, because the chosen ones are as the angels in heaven.


or

Quote:
As it has been said earlier, the “Battle of Armageddon” is a spiritual battle over the souls of the elect. The kings of the earth are used as pawns by Yahshuah and Satan. The cause and stage set for this battle is as follows. Yahshuah has made a way for man to receive salvation and his goal has been to see that salvation was established and continued through the Apostles he chose. Because of this, Satan’s goal has been to pervert, wipe out the knowledge of truth and any who would teach this salvation. Matthew recorded some of the prophecy of these events. Please note that Yahshuah was speaking about the days and lives of the Apostles and the lives of the early assembly. These events do not take place a thousand plus years in the future after a millennial reign as taught through the traditions of Christianity. These events have already happened.


There are many more such passages, but it becomes difficult to discern when so much Truth is also thrown into the mix. However, Truth, when altered cannot remain Truth!

IMHO, your head spun around this article even after reading it three times is because it is, for want of better word, confounding. Just because these guys use the relevant names and quote Scripture, does not mean that their preaching should be considered inspired or truthful. Many passages are out of context and a poor comparison against what Ken detailed in The Future's History or what Yada expounded in all the books of Yaya Yahweh.

If you know these people and interact with them you may want to forward the website to them. Let them read and check out what YY is about and they may have a better understanding of Scripture. If the members are discouraged from reading YY, then it will confirm my suspicion that their preachers are also trying to exert power and dominion over their congregation.

Edited by user Sunday, June 8, 2008 6:51:46 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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