logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
View
Go to last post Go to first unread
Offline Ruchamah  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 9:14:06 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

Shalom all,

I am new to the forum, but the moderator encouraged me to post some thoughts on the Temple. So, here we go:

As in all things, we have received MUCH bad teaching as regards the Temple service, the Altar service and the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood.

If we are to be consistent with our view that the Torah has NOT been done away with, then it would probably be wise to try to unravel the *mystery* that surrounds these topics. I say *mystery* because to us they are mysterious. We have seen them mocked and scoffed at for 2 millenia! But RARELY have we been taught their significance to us. As people preparing to enter the Millenial reign, I think it is time that we begin unravelling some of the mystique.

Firstly, I am thankful for the book of Hebrews, as idoes MUCH to dispel all the misconceptions we have been taught. However, there is one little problem: the errors we have been taught are oftentimes the result of BAD- no, horrid- translation into English. Therefore, seeing the errors reqwires at least a basic understanding of Greek tenses etc. If necessary, I will try to point out the errors as we encounter them in this discussion.

That there will be another temple is spelled out by Ezekiel, as well as by John in revelation. Our Messiah makes it clear that there will again be sacrifices in Jerusalem before the *end of the age*. It would be helpful to read Ezekiel chapters 40ff.

To get things started, let me make a statement: The first person we see acting in role of PRIEST is the Almighty Himself, when he covers the nakedness of Adam and Eve after their sin and subseqwent nakedness. Our next glimpse is Cain and Abel, bringing sacrifices and offerings to the Most High. Why were they doing this? What was the FUNCTION of these offerings?

Our next enccounter with tars and things sacrificed is with Noach, after the Flood. Again, what is the FUNCTION of that altar and those sacrifices? What purpose do they serve?

That is probably enough qwestions to at least get us started...How important does the office of *priest* appear to be to the Most High?

Hoping to get some interesting convos going!
Much love in Moshiach,
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 2:57:21 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Hello, Ruchamah, and welcome to the forum. (Meant to say that in my previous post, and I forgot). I would encourage you to read The Owner's Manual, which explores in detail what the role of the Torah was (and is) meant to be. You're right: it has never been abrogated. But it was never designed to be the path to salvation, either. It was, rather, meant to be the signpost that points toward that path.

As far as the coming temple is concerned, there are two more temples in our future, one built on the temple mount during the Tribulation, and another erected nearby during the early years of the Millennium, from which the Messiah will reign. It is this temple and its service that is described in such detail in the latter chapters of Ezekiel. I've covered it with a fine-tooth comb in Future History, chapter 27: "The Millennial Temple." In retrospect, it's relatively easy for us to deduce that the pre-Torah sacrifices pointed toward the same event that those of the Levitical Law did---that of Yahshua in atonement for our sin, looking forward toward the event in faith. But why are the animal sacrifices to be reinstituted in the Millennial Temple? It was an epiphany to me to realize that the very same event is in view, only looking back. Why? Because in the perfect society of the Millennial kingdom, it will be terribly hard for people to grasp the significance of what Yahshua accomplished for us at Calvary without the same sort of object lessons the Torah offered. Here, the details take on special significance: the Levitical sacrifices and those of the Millennial temple vary slightly, reflecting the point of view, looking back instead of looking forward.

And although the Aaronic priesthood will once again be in operation in the Millennial temple (though restricted to the sub-family of Zadok alone) in a larger sense, every believer is now a priest, under the suzerainty of our High Priest, Yahshua. This has been the case since the crucifixion, when the veil secluding the Holy of Holies was torn in two. And what, precisely, is a priest? Someone who acts as a liason, a go-between, between man and God. Priests will be necessary as long as mortal man walks the earth.

kp
Offline Ruchamah  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 4:39:03 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

Hi KP-
Sorry i know nothing of your book!

I do know that I was not taught correctly regarding the Temple and the priesthood at ALL.
What i have learned is that there are two preisthoods: Aaronic/Levitical as well as MelechTzedek.
They have different functions and operate in different Temples. They also offer different sacrifices.
What they do have in common is that the same Torah regulates their activities. They operate simultaneously.

In greek thinking, it must be EITHER this priesthood OR that priesthood, never both at the same time. Yet this simultaneous operation of the priesthoods is precisely what Scripture teaches!!

What then is the difference? How are we to understand this?
The book of Hebrews does MUCH to clear the cobwebs, ty Abba!

AARONIC MELECHTZEDEK
______________________________________________________

earthly Temple Heavenly Temple

blood of bulls and goats blood of the LAMB

purified to the sanctifying of flesh purges the conscience

makes one fit to enter earthly temple makes one fit to enter the Presence

everlasting covenant oath and endless life

Holy Place Most Holy Place

this world world to come


If we want to enter the EARTHLY Temple, the protocol that the Almighty has laid out in Torah must be followed. Just as you wouldnt wander into the White House without following a certain protocol, nor will we enter His House without following His established protocol.

The blood of bulls and goats has NEVER been about *taking away sin*. This was not its FUNCTION. When you go back to Beresheit and read about Abraham's altars, we dont see him seeking forgiveness: rather, he is entering into a higher form of worship! His righteousness has been established BEFORE he ever built an altar! He believed God!

GREAT discussion!

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Ruchamah  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 4:48:45 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

Swalchy wrote:
So, animal sacrifices will once again be commencing in the millenial kingdom of the Messiah, did I read that correctly?

What about in the New Heaven and the New Earth?


Yes Swalchy, according to Ezekiel 40ff. It is a good read! My favorite verse, from that section:
Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Show the House to the house!
The House will figure VERY prominently in the Millenial Kingdom. WOOOHOO!

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Ruchamah  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 5:00:22 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

well darn...that didnt work, so let me try it another way.

Aaronic

earthly House (Temple)

by everlasting covenant

blood of bulls and goats

purifies to sanctifying of the FLESH

makes one fit to enter the earthly House

Holy Place

This world
______________________________________________________________________________________-

MelechTzedek

heavenly House (Temple)

by oath and everlasting life

blood of the LAMB

purges the conscience

makes one fit to enter the Presence

Most Holy Place

The world to come

When we see and understand the two very different priesthoods which operate simultaneously, we begin to have some grasp of the book of Hebrews, which, i might add is written about *the world to come*.

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 7:39:17 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Hi, Ruchamah. First, let me introduce you to the two books I referenced earlier, Future History and The Owner's Manual. They're both free online, and are linked directly from the Yada Yahweh site, in the right column. FH is a stab at taking every yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecy in the entire Bible, arranging them in the chronological order in which they can expect to be fulfilled, and demonstrating how they fit together as perfectly as a ten-thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle. TOM examines the Torah using the "613 Laws" organization developed by Maimonides in the Mishneh Torah---considered the most definitive list (though as you'll see, it's as queer as a three dollar bill). Along the way I revisit many of the salient passages in the New Covenant Scriptures that explain how the Torah functions among the gentile Ekklesia.

I think maybe you're barking up the wrong tree by contrasting the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods as earthly vs. heavenly. Both of them, in different ways, point directly toward Christ. So why are there two? Yahweh cannot violate His own instructions, but His plan calls for the Messiah to be Prophet (an office not tribe specific), Priest, and King. The King of Israel must be of the lineage of David, of the house of Judah. The priesthood of Israel, on the other hand, are by definition sons of Aaron, of the tribe of Levi. Thus the only way Yahshua could fulfill His mandate was for His priesthood to be of an order other than that of Aaron's. And so it is with Melchizedek, who I'm pretty sure (though we aren't told) was a Theophany to whom Abraham paid homage. At the very least, he was an historical figure put in place by Yahweh to serve as the symbol for the requisite "alternate priesthood." The Melchezidek priesthood, however, offers no recurring sacrifices. Remember, a priest is one who is assigned to stand between God and man. In TOM, you'll find that the Aaronic order of priests are symbolic of believers, and the High Priest is symbolic of Yahshua. The entire Levitical priesthood is one big dress rehearsal for our then-future privilege of serving in the very presence of God.

Oh, and one further note on the Temple. Yes, it will play a central role in the Millennial kingdom, but not in the New Heaven and New Earth (that is, in our immortal life beyond the thousand-year reign). In the eternal state there will be no temple (Revelation 21:22). Yahshua/Yahweh will be the temple---the symbol will have at last been replaced by the eternal reality.

kp
Offline Ruchamah  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:12:35 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

Hey kp- Am glad to see another post.
Yes, i do very specifically CONTRAST the two priesthoods, qwite intentionally, so that their purpose and function can be more readily identified. In the churches we were TAUGHT that the Levitical priesthood was done away, it no longer had validity, blah blah blah. Nothing could be further from the truth!

I think MAYBE that in the Mill. we will see a *blending*, for lack of a better word, of the Lev/Melech. priesthoods in the Kingdom, where both the sanctifying of the flesh as well as the ministry to the consciences of people is the type of ministry done.

When all things are restored, and i mean POST-Millenial, ie back to the Garden type stuff, I have a hunch, just a hunch mind you, that the Most High is going to take all those things that He seperated back in Beresheit 1 and 2 and rejoin them, making ONE,...It just seems that is what He is doing, tho this is mostly just meditative thoughts, not something i have thought all the way through...call them *Ponderables*.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Ruchamah  
#8 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 5:14:39 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHVH our righteousness. For thus saith YHVH; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of YHVH came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith YHVH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me."
- Jeremiah 33:16-22

It seems from this passage in Jeremiah that the Throne of David and the Levitical priesthood are locked in. One cant seperate the priesthood from the Kingdom.

There will be a throne and there will be a Temple, it seems to say.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Ruchamah  
#9 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 6:19:04 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

Let me qwickly add this:

I do not think the Leviticcal priesthood and sacrifices in any way conflict with the sacrifice of Yeshua or the MelechTzedek priesthood.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline kp  
#10 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 6:50:14 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Agreed. They are complementary---two ways of symbolizing the same thing.

kp
Offline Ruchamah  
#11 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 6:58:59 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

Ok KP, here is where we differ on this issue: I do not believe the two priesthoods symbolize the same thing. They each have their function and their purpose, and although they do not conflict with one another, their purpose/function are very different.

The Levitical priesthood/sacrifices sanctify to the purifying of the flesh.

The MelechTzedek pristhood/sacrifice purges the conscience.

Two VERY distinct functions.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline kp  
#12 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 11:57:05 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Yes, I guess we do differ here. I perceive that both priesthoods do both things. Except for one slight wrinkle. Where is it said that the Melchizedek priesthood offered sacrifices? Melchizedek himself received tithes but offered up no temporal sacrifices that we know of. Of course, it's quite possible that Mel was a theophany. In that case, the only sacrifice of which we have record was that performed in the person of Yahshua. But it is His sacrifice toward which the Levitical sacrifices universally point. Can we at least agree on that?

kp
Offline Ruchamah  
#13 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:12:42 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
Joined: 8/7/2007(UTC)
Posts: 72
Location: TN

Hi KP,

I think the sacrificial system does point to Yeshua, specifically the Tamid offering. However, i think we shouldnt limit our understanding there. The Word of God is many-layered, meaning upon meaning. The priesthood teaches us how to worship Him, as well, imo.

The sacrifices are an integral part of the Mo'edim, and give us additional understanding of them. They also teach us about leaders, families and individuals in the community of YHWH.

Since some gentiles will be taken for Levites in the Kingdom, it probably is a good thing to understand the system that He has established.

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Matthew  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2008 4:43:02 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Reviving an old thread:

What about Hebrews 7:12?

For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

This seems to indicate a change, as in a removal of the Levitical law, as in abolished. I read an article, http://www.haderek.ca/ar...les/paul/melchizedek.htm , which seemed to provide some insight but Christians I'm discussing it with don't seem to accept it. I highlighted the following two passages:

1) The Melchizedek priesthood, the order in which Yeshua is the High Priest, does not supersede or eliminate the Levitical priesthood. In fact, each priesthood is eternal and each priesthood has its purpose. The Levitical priesthood operates on the physical plane, i.e. the shadow, while the Melchizedek priesthood operates on the spiritual plane, i.e. the reality. Like everything else, the reality does not eliminate the shadow. The Melchizedek priesthood complements and completes the Levitical priesthood.

2) So what does this digression into Greek words show? In short, the reader can easily misunderstand Hebrews 7:12 when reading some English translations. An expanded translation/paraphrase of Hebrews 7:12 would read something like this: "For the whole concept of priesthood is being moved around. In particular, the ordering of the priesthoods is being switched around. The Melchizedek priesthood with Yeshua as the High Priest is now more important than the Levitical priesthood with Aaron as the High Priest. As a result, there has to be a transformation or rearranging of some of the parts of the Torah."

Both laws are "forever," but they seem to read this verse own its own, completely out of context, much like the rabbis do with Scripture.

Does anyone have comments on Hebrews 7:12, I couldn't seem to find anything in YY, TOM and FH?
Offline Matthew  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:09:15 AM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,191
Man
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Swalchy - on the other forum wrote:
When one reads Hebrews, one doesn't actually think that the Author (which I still firmly believe to be Paul, despite the scholars who say differently) is necisarrily talking about the whole of the Torah at all, but only those rules that apply to the sacrifices of the Priesthood that they did every year (as Paul gets to in v27), so, these are the laws that are "set aside" (sacrificing every year to atone for the nation's sins) because there's no need for the sacrifices - as it says in v27, "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself."

Why does Paul then mean the sacrificial laws are set aside? What if there was a temple today, would sacrificial laws then be necessary in terms of providing the shadow? Would we be required to meet there three times a year and would we be required to offer sacrifices? In this case the practical side would be very difficult to accomplish, most people wouldn't even be able to cover the cost of a flight.

From what I'm understanding is that Yahushua doesn't need to be sacrificed over and over again. The Book of Hebrews is really about Yahushua and His ability to provide one sacrifice, sufficient to provide removal of sins. The sacrificial laws have just been set aside (or set to the side, meaning next to but in a lesser position); however, this doesn't mean they are no longer a part of Law.

Were the sacrifical laws ever a "requirement" to atone for sins? Or was is all about Yahushua in the first place? Did the sacrificial laws provide temporary cover for sins or did it not? I assume all those living before Yahushua looked ahead to His Sacrifice rather than depending on the animal sacrifices offered.

Why is this such a difficult thing to understand???

As an extra: will the next temple during the Tribulation be ordered by Yahuweh or not? Will He come and dwell there? I think He won't, and what will happen is that some Jews will realise this, because they will put one and one together, that of figuring out that Yahushua did actually come many years ago.
Offline kp  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2008 8:51:07 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Perhaps it would be helpful to go back and read the introduction to chapter 12 of TOM: Sacrifices and Offerings. In it I've given my take (for what it's worth) on Hebrews 9.

Quote:
What if there was a temple today, would sacrificial laws then be necessary in terms of providing the shadow?...
I don't Actually know. KP will probably be able to give a much better answer.


Gee, thanks for putting me on the spot :-) Rather than deal in hypotheticals (since the temple does not exist today) let's look at reality. The Tribulation Temple doesn't count, because it will be usurped by the Antichrist for his own nefarious purposes (though I believe that Yahweh will regard the sacrifices made there in the spirit in which they're offered, whether in obedience or hypocricy). But a final temple will be built during the Millennium. There's an entire chapter describing it in Future History. The bottom line is this: the animal sacrifices were never efficacious in atoning for sin. But what they pointed toward (or back to, in the case of the Millennial temple) that is, the sacrifice of Yahshua, is efficacious. Then, as now, as always, Yahweh is looking for our faith---either in what He's going to do, or what He has already done.

kp
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, October 8, 2008 10:22:10 AM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
the more I think about it the more I feel that the sacrifical system never really dealt with sin anyway. As far as I can see there was only 1 sacrifice that could deal with that for all time, past present and future. The sacrifices at the temple were mearly a pointer, part of the picture, to make people understand what was to come. This is why i agree with the Temple sacrifices in the next age, because people need to realise what happened. It was always the spirit in which the sacrifice was given too, Yahuweh even said a few times that the endless sacrifices were a stench to His nose (I think) prob because the people were missing the point again...

Oh dear - I just read what ken wrote... sorry... lol I didnt copy honest.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.