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Offline Walt  
#1 Posted : Saturday, October 10, 2009 6:22:17 AM(UTC)
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Some say it's the day of rest the Creator made for us.

I now better understand it's purpose:
A day for wives to have their husbands get needed work done, worry about Sabbath and Yahweh after the important things are out of the way.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Saturday, October 10, 2009 7:27:09 AM(UTC)
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hahahahahaha :D
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Offline Yah Tselem  
#3 Posted : Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:33:29 PM(UTC)
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I just got done cleaning up the house for my wife and then I read this.. perfect timing..
Offline RidesWithYah  
#4 Posted : Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:27:32 PM(UTC)
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We have two laboradors.

After two hours or so of *discussion*, I was recently able to convince my wife that removing "land mines" from the yard didn't fall into the category of "keeping it holy". The yard now gets a thorough cleaning every Sun-Day.
Offline Juski  
#5 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:34:44 AM(UTC)
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hahaha - you forget boys that Sabbath is for doing all those things that aren't your normal work - so that would be the dishes, the cleaning.....don't see them on a normal male day!!!! ;)
Offline Matthew  
#6 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:37:18 AM(UTC)
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Juski wrote:
hahaha - you forget boys that Sabbath is for doing all those things that aren't your normal work - so that would be the dishes, the cleaning.....don't see them on a normal male day!!!! ;)

I try keep the house tidy, clean up after the kids (they have way too many toys), do some clothes washing, wash the dishes (the wife does the cooking), but I do it whenever it's needed or when the mess gets too much and can't leave it any longer. If I don't do it no one will, plus the wife works a lot and has back problems so I don't expect her to do any cleaning. We do have a house cleaner to do the real dirty work (scrubbing floors, washing down bathrooms, etc.), but she comes in twice or so a week.

Swalch! wrote:
Some of us do the cleaning and dishes whilst the women sit around watching TV :)

That's how I want to feel, but by the amount of normal work my wife does I sometimes think it's only fair for her to have time off! But last night I cleaned a hugh kitchen mess between 11pm and midnight, not nice!
Offline Juski  
#7 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 4:14:38 AM(UTC)
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defensive aren't we!! ;) lol
Offline Walt  
#8 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:38:27 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
Juski, Juski, Juski.... you should know by now that you shouldn't judge all men by your husbands poor standards. Some of us do the cleaning and dishes whilst the women sit around watching TV :)


Yup, YUP
Offline James  
#9 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:51:19 AM(UTC)
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My wife and I both help to keep the house clean all week so that we don't have to worry to much about it on the Sabbath. Usually we sleep in, have a nice breakfast together, for a change, discuss Yah's word, and try to do some studying during the day.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#10 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2009 12:33:59 PM(UTC)
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I don't like the way the dice are rolling on this thread....
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Offline bitnet  
#11 Posted : Monday, October 12, 2009 4:08:07 AM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Good idea to get mundane work out of the way during the week so that you can enjoy the Sabbath rest. But sometimes we have to cook some simple meals that do not require too much work. Sometimes the wife gets carried away and we end up having to do more work than is necessary in cleaning up the kitchen. We like to play the week's recordings of the YY Radio shows in between sleeping, eating and reading.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline James  
#12 Posted : Monday, October 12, 2009 6:17:43 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
Shalom,

Good idea to get mundane work out of the way during the week so that you can enjoy the Sabbath rest. But sometimes we have to cook some simple meals that do not require too much work. Sometimes the wife gets carried away and we end up having to do more work than is necessary in cleaning up the kitchen. We like to play the week's recordings of the YY Radio shows in between sleeping, eating and reading.

I don't consider cooking a violation of the Sabbath, I enjoy cooking, and do not consider it work, it is very relaxing and fun, so it is part of rest, and it gives me and my wife a chance to discuss stuff, while we cook together.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline sirgodfrey  
#13 Posted : Monday, October 12, 2009 10:41:50 AM(UTC)
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gosh, all these married people...
Offline Walt  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:29:00 AM(UTC)
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sirgodfrey wrote:
gosh, all these married people...


Swalchy wrote:
Makes you want to vomit, doesn't it SGF


But you don't have to deal with the dilemma some like me struggle with:

why is the one you love, your partner; the biggest hindrance to the life Yahuweh desires us to pursue????
Offline James  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:24:47 AM(UTC)
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Happily that's not an issue for me Walt. My wife is extremely supportive, I thank Yahweh everyday for her.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:08:42 AM(UTC)
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My momma always used to say, life is like a box of chocolates
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:09:09 PM(UTC)
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Pardon my King James...

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
1 Corinthians 7: 10-17
Offline James  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:55:15 PM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:
Pardon my King James...

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
1 Corinthians 7: 10-17

SWALCHY, .... translation please ;)
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:46:21 PM(UTC)
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Quote:


Moreover, to those who are married I give this enjoinment and order, direction and encouragement, definition and charge, admonishment and command, declaration and announcement, recommendation and exhortation, summoning and instruction, which is not mine but nevertheless, notwithstanding and on the contrary, it is the Sovereign Master’s*: do not let a woman and wife be separated or divided, sundered or parted, divorced or removed from her man and husband (but nevertheless, if a separation or division, sundering or parting, divorce or removing occurs, let her remain and abide, endure and live, last and persist, continue on and stay on as unmarried, existing without a spouse, or let her be reconciled and favourable received back into a relationship with her man and husband); and a man and husband is not to set free or release, let go of or dismiss, grant the permission to depart, send away or divorce his woman and wife. And to the rest of those who remain, I say and teach, maintain and affirm, direct and exhort, advise and point out (not the Sovereign Master*): if and whether some certain brother or fellow brethren has and holds, acquires and receives, owns and possesses an unfaithful and incredulous, unbelievable and untrustworthy, unreliable and disobedient, treacherous and crooked, unscrupulous and perverse, twisted and dishonest, warped and distorted, depraved, corrupt and mislead woman and wife, and she has the good will and kindly intent, benevolence and delight, desire and satisfaction, good pleasure and gracious purpose, wish and decree to dwell and live, inhabit and reside, abide and remain together with him, do not let him set free or release, let go of or dismiss her, grant her the permission to depart, send her away or divorce her. And if and whether some certain woman and wife has and holds, acquires and receives, owns and possesses an unfaithful and incredulous, unbelievable and untrustworthy, unreliable and disobedient, treacherous and crooked, unscrupulous and perverse, twisted and dishonest, warped and distorted, depraved, corrupt and mislead man and husband, and he has the pleasure and delight, joy and gladness to dwell and live, inhabit and reside, abide and remain together with her, do not let her set free or release, let go of or dismiss him, grant him the permission to depart, send him away or divorce her man and husband. For the reason that the unfaithful and incredulous, unbelievable and untrustworthy, unreliable and disobedient, treacherous and crooked, unscrupulous and perverse, twisted and dishonest, warped and distorted, depraved, corrupt and mislead man and husband has been sanctified, cleansed and set-apart in, by and with the woman and wife, and the unfaithful and incredulous, unbelievable and untrustworthy, unreliable and disobedient, treacherous and crooked, unscrupulous and perverse, twisted and dishonest, warped and distorted, depraved, corrupt and mislead woman and wife has been sanctified, cleansed and set-apart in, by and with the brother and fellow brethren. Otherwise, then and therefore, accordingly and as a result of this, your children, offspring and progeny would be and exist as unclean and defiled, dirty and filthy, indecent and impure, shameless and licentious, but nevertheless, they are now and exist at this present time as set-apart and cleansed. But nevertheless, if and whether the unfaithful and incredulous, unbelievable and untrustworthy, unreliable and disobedient, treacherous and crooked, unscrupulous and perverse, twisted and dishonest, warped and distorted, depraved, corrupt and mislead person causes a separation and division, sundering and parting, divorce and removal, let the separation and division, sundering and parting, divorce and removal take place. The brother and the sister who is a fellow member has not been enslaved or subjected to, under obligation or bound to, subjugated or subdued in, by or with such cases, but nevertheless, God* Himself has called and addressed, summoned and invited all of you in, by and with peace and tranquillity, harmony and concord, security and safety, prosperity and freedom, exemption from chaos, felicity and the assurance of salvation. For this reason, what do you see and perceive, observe and witness, know and experience, recognise and respect, understand and take note of, comprehend and discern, pay attention to and discover, notice and examine, inspect and behold, you who are the woman and wife, if or whether you shall deliver and preserve, save and rescue your man and husband from danger and destruction, ruin and annihilation? Or what do you see and perceive, observe and witness, know and experience, recognise and respect, understand and take note of, comprehend and discern, pay attention to and discover, notice and examine, inspect and behold, you who are the man and husband, if or whether you shall deliver and preserve, save and rescue your woman and wife from danger and destruction, ruin and annihilation?

Anyway, in this manner and way, thus and so, let each and every person walk and behave, live, conduct and regulate their lives, works and actions as, like and similar to the way that the Sovereign Master* has divided and distributed, bestowed and assigned, imparted and apportioned; as, like and similar to the way God* Himself has called and addressed, summoned and invited each and every person. And I arrange and appoint, ordain and regulate, prescribe and establish, order and direct, constitute and administer, determine and allot, command and instruct in this manner and way, thus and so within and inside all the individual and collective called out Ekklesia’s, assemblies and congregations.



I bolded the bit that stuck out for me... Notice he teaches Torah values on marriage first, then makes a separation and gives his opinion. This is a good example of why Pauls letters should not be used as Scripture. Great and wise dude and all, but he never meant them to replace Torah teaching...
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Offline RidesWithYah  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:27:49 AM(UTC)
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I think what Swalchy has done is terrific, but it's beyond me.
I've checked the website several times looking for the promised "simplified" rather than "amplified", but it just isn't available yet.
And the amplified makes my head hurt.
I just can't get through it.

Your "takeaway", about Paul, is incredibly important.
Is that (Torah - separation - opinion) pattern a common thing for Paul?
I hadn't been sharp enough to pick up on it before, but will look for it.

Offline James  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:11:00 AM(UTC)
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wrote:
And I arrange and appoint, ordain and regulate, prescribe and establish, order and direct, constitute and administer, determine and allot, command and instruct in this manner and way, thus and so within and inside all the individual and collective called out Ekklesia’s, assemblies and congregations.

Interesting that he says I arrange and appoint, not Yahuweh or God arranges and appoints. I've gotten to the point of unless someone can back up what Paul said with something from the Torah, Prophet or Psalms, I'm skeptical of it, so much of what Paul taught has either been misconstrued, or was his opinion, turned in to dogmatic law.

Robski wrote:
Great and wise dude and all,

He was a wise dude. Kinda funny to hear someone say that about a "biblical' character. LOL
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Y.I.K.  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:13:13 AM(UTC)
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Hey RideswithYah, I totally feel you on the amplified Scripture thing. It can be pretty confusing at times. I'm currently trying to "simplify" it so to speak, but it is fairly slow going. Now, I can't speak for Swalchy, but I am sure he would appreciate any help you or someone you know could give. I'm sure that also goes for anyone else on this forum. I know that it is an awesome, awesome thing to have a fully amplified version of Scripture, but it is much more difficult getting someone who is skeptical about God and stuff to read that, so if anyone could help out in any way, that would be great! The sooner this gets done the more people who can benefit from it!!!

But I'll stop hijacking the thread now...
Truth is like sandpaper. When you run across it, it can do one of 2 things: grind you down into nothing, or polish and refine you.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:24:01 AM(UTC)
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RidesWithYah wrote:

Is that (Torah - separation - opinion) pattern a common thing for Paul?


It seems so - for all that Paul was or wasn't, one thing he didn't do was put words in Yah's mouth. If it was from Torah he would say, if it wasn't he was sure to make it clear. I don't think he bet on people taking verses out of context, because you can miss the "this is my take on it..." line..

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Offline bitnet  
#24 Posted : Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:05:21 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Nothing wrong with expressing opinions, unless it expressly goes against Scripture or purposely clouds or hides the real meaning thereof. Paul does great work expounding Scripture and unless one has serious doubts about him, pretty much everything of what he says clarifies the Torah, Psalms and Prophets (TPP or Tanakh) and the events of the early first century... if it is translated properly. So the rub is whether the "originals" we have now are what Paul actually wrote or were they edited over the centuries? Whatever the case may, it would be foolish to throw out the baby with the bathwater... as almost all of what Paul wrote jives with the Tanakh. Personally, I would not waste so much time whether Paul actually said this or that but whether what he allegedly said is in accordance with Scripture and go with the verses that are clear. Where it is unclear, it has little or no material effect on our salvation as Paul never dispensed with the Tanakh and amplified his understanding of Yahushua, and Yahweh's plan for humanity through his writings.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#25 Posted : Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:24:25 PM(UTC)
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Exactly - I think the problems people face is when they see Paul's letters as Scripture. Paul does not write like a prophet, we also do not know how many letters have gone back and forth, what questions he is responding to most of the time and yes, the exact context of the message. We do also see him giving his own opinion which he is clear about. Paul was definitely inspired at points, and he did "get it", as bitty said pretty much everything he said was from Torah - but we must not take letters like that when we really do not know what has gone before, the context of the receivers problems and without reading the whole thing.

Pulling out verses we miss the "ok guys this is what I think" and the "This is Torah" moments, which are imperative for understanding how Paul is writing and seeing how often he does teach from Torah.

Paul is just a dude, and a great dude - better man than me, but a man just the same. I bet he hates the fact his letters have been used, I know I would have...

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Offline Matthew  
#26 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 12:09:28 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
Paul is just a dude, and a great dude - better man than me, but a man just the same. I bet he hates the fact his letters have been used, I know I would have...


Like not wanting us to record your TinyChat convos and then claiming them as Scripture?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#27 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 2:07:47 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
Like not wanting us to record your TinyChat convos and then claiming them as Scripture?


EXACTLY LoL - well that would be even worse lol.
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Offline James  
#28 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 3:01:54 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
Paul is just a dude, and a great dude - better man than me, but a man just the same. I bet he hates the fact his letters have been used, I know I would have...


I think the best example of how I view Paul's letters, is how I view Yada's work. It's very informative and insightful, but it is not God's word. And he doesn't want us to view it as Scripture.

The only thing is there are passages where it seems like Paul is wanting what he is saying taught to others, but I'm of the opinion that what he is wanting taught is the proper understanding of the Scriptures taught, and not his words taught.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline Matthew  
#29 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 3:13:19 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:
I think the best example of how I view Paul's letters, is how I view Yada's work. It's very informative and insightful, but it is not God's word. And he doesn't want us to view it as Scripture.

What about other books such as Jude, Peter, James, Revelation, etc. because they have some serious prophecy going on?
Offline kp  
#30 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 3:42:48 AM(UTC)
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I dunno. Seems to me the only "problem" with Paul's writings is what people have made of them. If you read him with the understanding that he was one of the foremost Torah scholars of his day, filtering his remarks through that fact, most of the controversy concerning his writings dissipates. And it doesn't help matters that his Greek is so obtuse, he's hard to get a handle on---Even Peter came out and said that Paul's stuff was hard to understand.

Comparing Paul to Yada is instructive, however. I'm thinking in particular of Prophet of Doom. People who skim through it without comprehension can (and often do) come to the conclusion that it's a hateful, violent book. And in some ways, it is, but as Yada says, "I didn't write those parts." If you look at POD from Yada's perspective, it's an impassioned plea for nominal Muslims---those who (like most Christians) are only in it because of regional customs or family pressures---to wake up and see that the religion they're following will kill them in the end. If there's an ax murderer on the loose in your neighborhood, it's not an act of violence to warn people to run away when they see him, even though the warning must by necessity include talk about violence.

It's kind of the same thing with Paul. He spends a lot of time warning people about the dangers that surround them---rabbinical Judaism, paganism, apostasy, and apathy. But in the background, he's assuming that people know where he's coming from: he's firmly grounded in the Torah. Since Constantine's day, however, that background---that foundation---has been forcibly suppressed by the very people who are presenting Paul's case. It's a distaster looking for a place to happen.

kp
Offline James  
#31 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 5:34:09 AM(UTC)
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Matthew wrote:
What about other books such as Jude, Peter, James, Revelation, etc. because they have some serious prophecy going on?

Revelation is defiantly not in the same area as Paul's letters, Revelation, was John's recording exactly what he was shown by Yahuweh, and would be in the same vain to me as the rest of the Prophets. With regards to the other books, insofar as they are prophecy revealed by Yahweh, then they are Scripture as they are Yah's word. With Paul i see it more as him trying to explain his understanding of Yah's word, which is very significant after all the time he spent with him and his expertise on Torah, so I view Paul as very very instructive, and like Ken said when you come to understand him in light of the context in which he wrote, there are no real contradictions between his writing and Yahweh's word.
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