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Offline Devildog  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 5:48:52 AM(UTC)
Devildog
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
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Location: Florida

Everyone reading this wants to hear "yes", but I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer to the question. We don't have a ton of scriptural information on "Heaven", so perhaps someone here has caught some nuances and subtleties that are often missed by most of us. What's the question, you ask? Will we recognize our friends and loved ones in heaven? Seems simple enough but it gets into some tricky areas, if you ask me. If a child dies at 13, do you see and recognize them in heaven? As children or as adults? Spirit form, or human form?

What if you re-marry due to the death of a spouse? Do you enjoy the company of both of them there? Do you recognize them for who they were? Perhaps only the good memories are with us there? Any thoughts? I guess the question boils down to this: Do we have memories (of our temporal life, once we are) in heaven?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 8:17:43 AM(UTC)
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personally I think we will, I think we will recognise each other too... I think that in the grand scheme of Heaven earthly things like being married twice, wont matter in the slightest. Thinking about "will I recognise a person who died when they were 13" or "oh no! theres my ex!" is looking at it from human terms...

Life is about relationship - I doubt that Yahuweh would want to end the relationships we have developed together in our short time bound existance.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline kp  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:47:52 PM(UTC)
kp
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Location: Palmyra, VA

Remember the film "Ghost"? The really scary thing about that bit of Hollywood theology was that whatever clothes you're wearing when you die, you're going to be wearing forever! :-) I gotta learn to dress better.

But seriously, I have the feeling that we haven't been given a lot of information about interpersonal relationships in our immortal bodies, because they'll be fundamentally different that the ones we enjoy here on earth. (Beside the fact that Yahweh wants us to keep our minds on the job at hand---let's get through this life before we get too wrapped up in the next.) Male-female (i.e., husband-wife) relationships will no longer be particularly significant, for the simple reason that we'll no longer be "soul factories," tasked with creating the next generation of humans. When we all live forever, there will be no need to replace ourselves in the earth. It's my guess that every one of us will recognize and have a loving relationship with everyone else, without regard to age, sex, language, nationality, or even the timeframe in which you "lived." Peter or Moses will be just as cordially familiar to us (and us to them) as anybody we know here on earth today. My daughter Marianne won't be confined to a wheelchair any longer, nor will anybody notice that our skin colors don't match. I have a feeling that the laws of physics that we labor under in this life will not apply to us in the next. The best clue we've got as to what we'll be like is the record of Yahshua's forty day sojourn among his friends after the resurrection. We will know as we are known, and better yet, we will sin no more. Cool.

kp
Offline Devildog  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:26:09 PM(UTC)
Devildog
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Location: Florida

Thanks guys. I value your thoughts. I also agree with pretty much all of them. Perhaps the best question is simply, "will we remember sin"?What got me to thinking, however, was this statement
"Peter or Moses will be just as cordially familiar to us (and us to them) as anybody we know here on earth today"
That's because I don't know what Peter or Moses looks like. Perhaps my answer(or a part of it) is in figuring out how we will recognize them as Peter and Moses.
If they simply come up and say " I'm Peter", than he must "remember" being Peter, but if all of Peter's "bad" memories(tears) are no longer known to him, how does he remember who "Peter" was and what was endured? Like wise, even though a person confined to a wheelchair will be free as a bird in heaven, halaluyah,.... if they have memories there of this temporal life, will they remember being in a wheelchair?

* What I find "cool" during that time hanging out with His friends, was that He ate! That means that we will get to do things just for the fun of it-clearly we won't , and He didn't, have any "need" for food.
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2007 6:42:59 PM(UTC)
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Food for immortals! Hallelujah! Seems to me if "God will wipe away all the tears from their eyes," and "we will see Him face to face and know as we are known," then introductions won't be necessary, and our memories (if we have them) will all be filtered through the lens of God's love and grace---we'll remember nothing evil.

kp
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:34:04 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:


Damn, if that's true, I'm only going to think I was alive for 4 years!



hehe yea, I dont think that "evil" memories will be countered or removed, I just think it wont matter.

But there isnt really much use speculating now, we are gonna find out sooner rather than later lol
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Devildog  
#7 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 4:24:25 AM(UTC)
Devildog
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Posts: 129
Location: Florida

Swalchy wrote:


Damn, if that's true, I'm only going to think I was alive for 4 years!
That's what I was wondering about, Swalchy. Surely bad memories are mixed with the good, right? Then.....



Like usual, K, you give me something to think about- subsequently bringing me closer to my answer. I thank you for that, brother. This time it was


Quote:
our memories (if we have them) will all be filtered through the lens of God's love and grace


Now if that doesn't get ya to think for a day or so, I don't know what will. So far, i've come up with: Either His lens will filter out that wheelchair in the memories, or it simply will not matter to the person-thus no tears. Its the only thing that makes sense to me at this point in my journey.

I also think that maybe these kind of things are only discernable to His family. I mean, if this question is asked by an atheist, and you respond with "our memories (if we have them) will all be filtered through the lens of God's love and grace",. they will not grasp it because they do not know Yahuweh's character or nature. Therefore, I am glad that it makes sense to me. LOL
Offline Ruchamah  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 6:22:45 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Posts: 72
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OK, I am a bit puzzled here. Where does it say that we go to Heaven? Isnt the Kingdom HERE on earth? And after that, dont we then dwell on the NEW earth?

I have a hunch that the *go to heaven* doctrine is linked to *the Jews have the earth/Land promises".

Just sayin...
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 6:53:44 AM(UTC)
Devildog
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Ruchamah wrote:
OK, I am a bit puzzled here. Where does it say that we go to Heaven?


Shamayim/Ouranos has been defined as the abode of God , where Yahushua stands up for us, making it possible for us to be in the presence of Yahuweh. Pretty sure, Matthew 5, among many others are harmonious and make it clear that a kingdom in Heaven is inherited- or not.
Offline Ruchamah  
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:04:01 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Posts: 72
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Devildog wrote:


Pretty sure, Matthew 5 among many others makes it clear that a kingdom in Heaven is inherited- or not.


Ok DD...but isnt the Kingdom of Heaven on EARTH? If the Kingdom is in heaven, where is the capital of the Kingdom? And if it is in Heaven, what is its purpose?

Thanks for the response!

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:07:19 AM(UTC)
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Ruchamah wrote:


Ok DD...but isnt the Kingdom of Heaven on EARTH?


Does scripture confirm that, Ruchmah?
Offline Ruchamah  
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 7:22:41 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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hi DD...Yes I believe that the Kingdom is right here on earth.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


We pray for that very thing every day, and i do believe Abba hears that prayer!

After his 3.5 year ministry on earth, and after spending 40 days with His disciples, teaching them about the Kingdom, the Messiah was asked ONE LAST QWESTION by His disciples:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

He did not rebuke them for this, rather, He told them that it wasnt for them to know the WHEN, but their job now was to populate said Kingdom.

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The Tanakh is full of the promises that relate to this glorious time on earth!

Shalom,
Ruch


If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#13 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 11:02:40 AM(UTC)
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Ruchamah wrote:
hi DD...Yes I believe that the Kingdom is right here on earth.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


We pray for that very thing every day, and i do believe Abba hears that prayer!


Weird to see you use the Greek word for Father in the middle of an english sentence. It's almost as if you are trying to use it as a name, and that would be too close to "Allah" for my taste. Either that, or old musical groups are hearing prayer LOL. Also, here is a better translation of that passage.


9“This, then, is the way you should pray: ‘Our Father who is in the heavens, let Your Name be set-apart,
let Your reign come, let Your desire be done on earth as it is in heaven.



Ruchamah wrote:
After his 3.5 year ministry on earth, and after spending 40 days with His disciples, teaching them about the Kingdom, the Messiah was asked ONE LAST QWESTION by His disciples:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

He did not rebuke them for this, rather, He told them that it wasnt for them to know the WHEN, but their job now was to populate said Kingdom.


So when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Master, would You at this time restore the reign to Yisra’el?”

They asked Him if He would restore it THEN. I didn't see anything about giving them jobs to do (like populating kingdoms) but He did say to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.“But you shall receive power when the Set-apart Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses in Yerushalayim, and in all YehuÅah(Judea) and Shomeron(Samaria), and to the end of the earth.”And having said this, while they were looking on, He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.And as they were gazing into the heaven as He went up, see, two men stood by them dressed in white, who also said, “Men of Galil, why do you stand looking up into the heaven? This same Yahushua, who was taken up from you into the heaven, shall come in the same way as you saw Him go into the heaven.”

Ruchamah wrote:
Quote:

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The Tanakh is full of the promises that relate to this glorious time on earth!




Yahushua was speaking about the Miqra of Weeks, when the Set Apart Spirit would anoint the first body of believers- not some future time of paradise on Earth or Heaven. And if you ask the participants of this prophesy, they may not call that period of time, "glorious", at all. Most of them were killed.


Offline Ruchamah  
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 11:23:48 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Posts: 72
Location: TN

Devildog,

I am trying to understand what this means:

Quote:
Weird to see you use the Greek word for Father in the middle of an english sentence. It's almost as if you are trying to use it as a name, and that would be too close to "Allah" for my taste. Also, here is a better translation of that passage.
Quote:


The greek word for father is pater...i simply copied and pasted from KJV, it was not my intent to offend you or anyone. Also, i am unclear as to what the reference is to alah, may his name be blotted out...i didnt qwite understand that. Please clarify?

Thanks,
Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#15 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 11:48:23 AM(UTC)
Devildog
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You didn't offend me Ruch LOL. And you are right- my mistake. I'll correct it later. It's the Aramaic word- not Greek. I guess they transliterated it from the Aramaic into Greek when it is supplied 3 times in our Bibles(Mar14:36, Rom8:15, Gal4:6)

And to clarify, I was only saying that "i do believe Abba hears that prayer!", sounded weird to me w/o the definite article-almost like "Abba" is being used as a name. And yes, Allah's name will be blotted out very soon. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Offline Ruchamah  
#16 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 11:50:17 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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DD,
I am gald there is no offense!

Abba is Hebrew for father.

Ruch
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#17 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:00:13 PM(UTC)
Devildog
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Posts: 129
Location: Florida

I thought the Hebrew was simply Ab, but I could be wrong. And with what I have endured over the past few years, I'm not sure if it is posible to offend me LOL.
Offline Ruchamah  
#18 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:11:59 PM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Aww DD, i am so sorry you have had to endure much! May the Most High make use of all
yer trials in a way that brings glory to His Name!

You are correct, Av is Father...Abba is really more affectionate, like Daddy...the name a child calls his/her papa.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

More than any other Name..Abba is the one i like to use the most.

In Him........

Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#19 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:25:56 AM(UTC)
Devildog
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Location: Florida

Ruchamah wrote:
Aww DD, i am so sorry you have had to endure much! May the Most High make use of all
yer trials in a way that brings glory to His Name!



Absolutely Ruchamah. What I meant to say earlier was that I have been debating in different forums now for several years, and I usually deal with Muslims so you can imagine the insults. One gets so numb from them, I was actually surprised to hear that you thought what you said was offensive. LOL I had my share of run-ins with "christians" as well, and most of them are not much better. And of coarse, evolutionists/ secular humanists are no different either. This was all to show me why Yahuweh is not too fond of religions. All of these groups acted almost identical, so there really isn't that much of a difference if you ask me. Although it was a learning lesson for me, it did indeed, ultimately, "bring glory to His name."

Quote:

You are correct, Av is Father...Abba is really more affectionate, like Daddy...the name a child calls his/her papa.Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


I believe that is one of the three times it is used, as mentioned earlier. Swalchy confirmed(thanks Swalchy) my suspicions of that being an Aramaic word that was transliterated, so it isn't a Hebrew word at all, is it? I suspect that when you wrote "av", it was a typo and was suppose to be "ab", right? Then you say that "abba" is the more affectionate word. Could you tell me the strongs number on that Hebrew word, please? I thought I looked for it at one time, and couldn't find it, so if you could supply that for me, I would appreciate it. Yesterday, I added "The Complete Word Study Dictionary" to my collection so perhaps in the future I will know these things LOL.

Quote:
More than any other Name..Abba is the one i like to use the most.


It's actually not a name at all, but I think I get what you are saying. Thank you for helping me out here. Regards

Offline Ruchamah  
#20 Posted : Friday, August 10, 2007 4:57:44 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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Hey DD!

Good to hear from you again! And yes, i do understand the difficulties one can face from those that oppose the Torah of YHWH: it will get worse, not better.

As for the word Av, or father: It is a Hebrew word originally, not Aramaic, though it is also used in Aramaic. The ALEPH BET spelling, in paleo-Hebrew, means the STRENGTH OF THE HOUSE. The Bet, or second letter of the word, is pronounced either like a V or like a B, depending on the presence of what is called a *dagesh lene*, which appears as a little dot in the center of the letter.

In Israel, to this day, Abba is what most children call their father, similar to our saying *daddy* rather than *dad*.

Getting back to the *go to heaven* theme:

I said earlier in this thread that the Kingdom comes on earth: I cant locate a passage that suggests that a Kingdom is established by us in Heaven (maybe because it already is established there?). The Tanakh is replete with Kingdom prophesies that take place on earth.

Am i missing something?

Thanks so much!
Ruchamah

If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#21 Posted : Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:44:43 AM(UTC)
Devildog
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Location: Florida

Ruchamah wrote:


Getting back to the *go to heaven* theme:

I said earlier in this thread that the Kingdom comes on earth: I cant locate a passage that suggests that a Kingdom is established by us in Heaven (maybe because it already is established there?). The Tanakh is replete with Kingdom prophesies that take place on earth.


But are they heavenly kingdoms? Hello again Ruchmah. Thanks for presenting another position as it ultimately will lead us to where the rubber meets the road, and that is always a good thing. I cant locate a passage that suggests that a Kingdom is established by us in Heaven either.I think that's because it is established by Him- not us. I was reading this earlier and I thought about this conversation we were having so I wanted to present it and hear what ya thought.

Neh 1:4 And it came to pass, when I heard these words, that I sat down and wept, and mourned certain days, and fasted, and prayed before the God of heaven,....

Since our ultimate goal is to be with Him, and since He is the "God of Heaven", doesn't logic dictate that to be with the "God of heaven" one must be in heaven? Also, if the choices are 1.we go to heaven, or 2.heaven comes to earth, I must ask you in the end, do we become more like Him, or Him like us?
Offline Ruchamah  
#22 Posted : Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:59:02 AM(UTC)
Ruchamah
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hey DD! Good to hear from you again, brother!

Well, that is two of us that cant find a passage that says we establish a Kingdom in heaven, then. So:

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


It appears that the heavenly Kingdom IS establiished, and we are to pray daily that it ALSO be established right here on earth.

Now it does say in Revelation 21 that when the New Heavens and New Earth are created, and the Holy City is coming down from Heaven, that:

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


So it seems that after the Kingdom, the Most High and the Lamb come HERE...not us going THERE.

In Messiah,
Ruchamah
If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance.
Offline Devildog  
#23 Posted : Monday, August 13, 2007 6:43:04 AM(UTC)
Devildog
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Posts: 129
Location: Florida

Ruchamah wrote:
hey DD! Good to hear from you again, brother!

Well, that is two of us that cant find a passage that says we establish a Kingdom in heaven, then. So:

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


It appears that the heavenly Kingdom IS establiished, and we are to pray daily that it ALSO be established right here on earth.





Hello there Ruchman. Thank you for your thoughts. I think we are reading the same thing but interpreting it a little different. Kinda like the thing about, "I say to you today you will be in heaven". Depending on where you pause, you may see two different things being said here. As to the verse you presented, I read it as two seperate things; 1. Let your kingdom come(Let His rule come) and 2. His desires to be done on Earth as it is in heaven.
LOL But who am I? Perhaps we will get clarification from someone a little more qualified than I.



Ruchamah wrote:
Now it does say in Revelation 21 that when the New Heavens and New Earth are created, and the Holy City is coming down from Heaven, that:

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


So it seems that after the Kingdom, the Most High and the Lamb come HERE...not us going THERE.

In Messiah,
Ruchamah


"Yahuweh is my refuge, protection and hope (chacah - [the One] to confide in and trust). My soul (nephesh) expresses satisfaction (‘eyk), saying, answering, and promising (‘amar), ‘Fly (nud - flee with remorse and sympathy) like a bird to Your mountain [Moriah].... Yahuweh exists in His Qodesh/Set Apart Temple. Yahuweh's Throne exists in Heaven (shamayim)." (Psalm 11:1-4)

"an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven," (I Peter 1:4)


There isn't much on heaven in scripture and believers aren't depicted there(except during the trib), but the few times it is spoken of, it seems pretty clear(to me at least). I'm not sure if it was Yada, Ken, or someone else who said " God isn't into bribes" but I agree with them. This, I believe is the reason for slight obscurity on the topic of "heaven".

Offline kp  
#24 Posted : Monday, August 13, 2007 1:25:11 PM(UTC)
kp
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Location: Palmyra, VA

Agreed, DD. I think Yahweh wants us to choose to reciprocate His love, so He doesn't confuse us (any more than necessary) with glowing descriptions of "heaven" or dire warnings concerning "hell." Bribes and threats are counterproductive to the process of honestly choosing whom to love.

As far as the Kingdom of God being established "on earth as it is in heaven," a lot of it seems to depend on the timing. As long as there is one mortal human believer, the physical earth will be necessary, and the Kingdom will exist here in some form. But once the Millennium has concluded and every child of Yahweh has received his or her spiritual body (as described in I Corinthians 15), there will no longer be a need for a material universe as we know it. Yahweh will then be "free" to introduce His new heavens and new earth, designed to support us in our new immortal state, just as this world now supports our frail mortal existence.

I think maybe the whole heaven and earth dichotomy is best described as C.S. Lewis once put it: "How can one adequately explain the pleasures of sex to a boy who can fathom no greater ecstasy than chocolate?"

kp
Offline Devildog  
#25 Posted : Monday, February 11, 2008 7:59:29 AM(UTC)
Devildog
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 129
Location: Florida

My wife's seemingly love/desire/obsession/need for chocolate if properly communicated would easily "explain the pleasures of sex".

She claims "it's a woman thing" so maybe some of you can relate. She also claims to have science on endorphins being released with chocolate consumption and so on....whatever makes you sleep at night....


Anyway, since this thread started with:

"I guess the question boils down to this: Do we have memories (of our temporal life, once we are) in heaven?"

So I thought I would present the following verse for elucidation. I believe it serves to answer my question.

"Those who seek, consult with, follow, and rely upon (darash) Yahuweh radiate His brilliant and clear light (halal); their consciences (lebab - inner nature and person, heart, mind, and soul, their thoughts, feelings, and passions) shall live forever." (Psalm 22:26)

H3824

ֵלָבב
lēḇāḇ: A masculine noun meaning heart, mind, inner person. The primary usage of this word describes the entire disposition of the inner person that God can discern (1Sa_16:7); be devoted to the Lord (1Ki_15:3); seek the Lord (2Ch_11:16); turn against people (Exo_14:5); be uncircumcised (Lev_26:41); be hardened (1Sa_6:6); be totally committed to the Lord (Deu_6:5; 2Ch_15:15). It is also used to describe the place where the rational, thinking process occurs that allows a person to know God's blessings (Jos_23:14); to plan for the future (1Ki_8:18); to communicate (2Ch_9:1); and to understand God's message (Isa_6:10). Like our English usage, it often refers to the seat of emotions, whether it refers to joy (Deu_28:47); discouragement (Jos_2:11); comfort (Jdg_19:8); grief (1Sa_1:8); sorrow (Psa_13:2 [3]); or gladness (Isa_30:29).
Offline Icy  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:51:04 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for that Devildog.

I recently spoke with my mother and she is reading some novel called "Heaven and Hell" about a couple that dies and one goes to heaven and the other hell. The one that goes to heaven completely forgets about the one that went to hell. My mom seems to think this is perfectly accurate information and that the author pulled everything from the "Bible". I couldn't really convince her of anything. I did send chapter 29 from FH to her and hope she read it, but I don't know. At least this little bit of info is quick and easy to read in an email.
Offline Devildog  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, February 13, 2008 4:40:10 AM(UTC)
Devildog
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Location: Florida

Hey Icy,

You bet. I thought it pretty much answered my original question. It just said that our "inner thoughts, person and mind shall live forever". Sounds like memories to me. However, I still don't know if the child will remember the wheelchair or it simply won't matter to them, but that issue is pretty insignificant now. If we know that our memories live forever, and that there will be no more tears, it's all icing from there. Afterall, who will desire reflecting on the memories of diving in the Florida Keys, once we take His tour.
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