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Offline James  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:25:21 AM(UTC)
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I've been thinking about something that several of my christian friends and family said recently. While I took advantage of the recent Easter "holiday" to try to teach them about the Miqra, several of them asked when I was explaining Passover to them, that it didn't celebrate the resurrection. To which i replied that Passover was more about the sacrifice, and the resurrection was celebrated through the feast of First Fruits, and left it at that.

But I've been thinking this over for a while now, and have realized that while yes the resurrection did occur on the feast of First Fruits, that was not the reason for the First Fruits celebration. First Fruits as I understand it, is about bringing the First Fruits harvest of souls before Yahweh, and while the Messiah, was the First Fruits offering, the celebration is really about man beginning to be brought back into relationship with Yahweh, and not so much about the resurrection.

So when you really break it down, the two most important celebrations to christians, not only aren't days Yahweh asks us to commemorate, but also celebrate events that are not really important to Yahweh. What's important to Him is His sacrifice on Passover, His paying the price for us on Unleavened Bread, His First Fruits harvest of souls, the outpouring of His spirit on his people on Weeks, His gathering of souls on Trumpets, His return on the Day of Reconciliations, and our camping out with Him during Tabernacles. His birth and resurrection may fall on these days, but they are not what is important about them to Him.

So not only does christianity not keep Yahweh's appointed Miqra, but the days they do hold "sacred" and important, mean little or nothing to Yahweh.

Am I way off on this?

Edited by user Wednesday, May 27, 2009 7:51:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Noach  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:20:23 AM(UTC)
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You are right on James, and that is what is so concerning about Christianity. How can any Christian truly say they have a personal relationship with Yahuweh, when they have no idea how or when to commune with Him? They keep missing Him. Yet none of this logic ever seems to make sense to the Christinas I talk to. Like Yada says, I think it is very difficult to have a rational conversation with most Christians. Some do listen and understand the truth and logic, but most don't care or try to blow it off. Very concerning for family members that would rather rely on manmade timelines than Yah's salvational timeline.

Noah
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:15:36 AM(UTC)
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No I believe you are very right. This is why I keep saying its not about "salvation" as that is just a by-product of relationship. Relationship sees your eternal salvation just because you want to be with your Father and that goes "beyond the grave" and into what it should have been to begin with, which just happens to be eternity.

Christianity gets too stuck on this issue of salvation and whether someone is saved or not, or what prayer you have to pray to be saved...
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Offline James  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:57:42 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
its not about "salvation" as that is just a by-product of relationship


I love that wording Robski. It's so succinct.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline bitnet  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:50:15 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Yes, the Warrior Robski certainly pulls a good one now and then! Trouble is most Christians already think that they have that special relationship with the Creator! Even if they do not know His Name, His Plan and His Work! Nothing we do really can put us in the right place except for really knowing who He is and wanting to do what He instructed, because even then we normally mess things up when we try. So almost none of what we do really puts us into the sweet spot as it really is all His Work. Like babies, we keep soiling our diapers and wait for our Parent to change us. We'll try be housebroken but we'll keep bumping things off the tables when we start tottering around. I wonder if He looks upon us like how we look upon tiny tots?
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:50:56 PM(UTC)
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and that's the problem - Christians think they know Him, but they know really nothing of Him. Deception wins again. We had some friends around yesterday and they were all very excited about what that god was doing in the church and with new believers etc, and I just didn't know what to say. Seriously. lol.
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Offline James  
#7 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:21:21 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
and that's the problem - Christians think they know Him, but they know really nothing of Him.

True Wisdom comes in knowing you know nothing.

I heard that when I was young, an took it to heart. To that end, I'm never satisfied with what I know, and seek to know more. I'll listen to anyone who says I'm wrong, provided they talk rationally and give a reasoned response as to why. Then I take what they say and consider it, and determine it's validity.

When one thinks they know, they aren't very open to being told otherwise. I remember trying to explain correlation between Genesis and science to a christian friend of my wife's, and she kept saying that the bible says the Lord made the earth in 6 days, around 6,000 years ago, and that's what I believe. No matter how many time I explained to her that the word Yom has more than just one meaning, and almost no Hebrew scholar believes that Yom in Genesis is supposed to be a single 24 hour earth day, she just refused to listen. She said you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. It is a matter of fact, as the saying goes Your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Anyways, I'm just glad I found people with whom I can have rational discussions about Scripture with, and even when we disagree we can talk about it reasonably.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline JamesH  
#8 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:14:55 AM(UTC)
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At what point of relationship does salvation start ?
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#9 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:51:01 AM(UTC)
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I dont think thats the issue, I think the issue is relationship. You should not be worried about being saved or not, its not about you its about the father/son relationship and whether or not you actually want it. He knows...
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Offline sirgodfrey  
#10 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:31:51 AM(UTC)
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Simply acknowledging that a person exists, and then proceeding to say "hi" in hopes to learn more about that person is the start of a "relationship" in a broad sense.

It's the same with Dad. Know that He's there. Say "Hi". And want to know more about Him -- this is the essence of relationship/friendship/companionship.
Offline James  
#11 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:10:52 AM(UTC)
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You should want to BE with him, not want to be saved. the reason we form a relationship with him, is not so that we can be saved, it's because we want to know him. I think the obsession, for lack of a better word, with Salvation steams from christianities attempt to scare people into joining "the church". If your not "saved" i.e. a member of the church, you're going to burn for all eternity in a lake of hellfire.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#12 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:25:47 AM(UTC)
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Shalom friends,

james says:
Quote:
At what point of relationship does salvation start ?


Robskiwarrior says:
Quote:
dont think thats the issue, I think the issue is relationship. You should not be worried about being saved or not, its not about you its about the father/son relationship and whether or not you actually want it.



I believe that before we can have a relationship with Yahuweh, we must first be washed clean and indwelled with his spirit. Then we can grow in our relationship with him, grow in our faith, and in our grace. In the psalms and in Romans we are told that there is none that do good and none that seek Yahuweh, so if one is to start a relatioship with Yahuweh, wouldn't that be considered good or seeking him? We can only do this when we are drawn by the Father and called out and set apart.

Psa.53:2,3 "Elohim looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek Elohim. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Rom.3:10,11 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after Elohim.

So, although one can say that our relationship with Yahuweh is most important, we must understand that is the end result of the work of Yahuweh, but first the work must be done. Our relationship is a by- product of being drawn and called out (giving salvation) from Yahuweh.

Offline Robskiwarrior  
#13 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:34:55 AM(UTC)
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So I suppose that if relationship is a by-product of being called out, all we have to do is answer that call. Then everything else flows. I do feel its a little organic a process for our definitions to label it, but I do believe that if we keep seeking, we will find. Yahuweh isn't in the business of making it hard for us, He did everything possible for us to be-able to get to Him, but I'm pretty sure He wants us to return the invitation and at least answer the call.

Which makes me think about the way Yada views the feasts, as special times that we are summoned to - and important to answer that summons.

Very interesting discussion guys :)

Added Extra:
Then you could beg the question, what qualifies you for "salvation" - if you look at Christianty again, are they "saved"... so there MUST be something required of us that would set us apart as His?

How much truth do you need to know?!?
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Offline In His Name  
#14 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:09:27 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
Luke 23:
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?

41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."


Isn't it this simple? That we understand and acknowledge who He is?
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Matthew  
#15 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:27:02 PM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
If a population is 1% okay, that it isn't worth destroying but sparing, then is a person, who is 1% correct, worth saving?


1% of 7 billion people is 70 million. However only 4 people left Sodom, which is 0,08% of 5000 people, and 0,08% of 7 billion is 560,000. I wonder if 70 million or only 560 thousand people will be Raptured?

In that calculation of 5000 people living in Sodom, does that include the neighbouring towns, such as Gomorrah, as well?
Offline Mike  
#16 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:28:42 PM(UTC)
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0.08% of 7 billion is 5.6 million.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#17 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:35:10 PM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:
Isn't it this simple? That we understand and acknowledge who He is?


yes exactly - this is also something that Juski, Swalchy and Myself have been discussing - and with Bittnet, thanks to some of his handouts. The fact that Christianity build their house on Sand, and reject the cornerstone.

Thing is you have to KNOW who He is. They all quote say John 1 at you, but what IS the Word. Surely its Torah, no? What is the rock? Surely its Torah? His firm foundations. The Word made flesh... Yahuweh...

I dunno just thoughts out loud :D
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Offline Matthew  
#18 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:48:33 PM(UTC)
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Mike wrote:
0.08% of 7 billion is 5.6 million.


Oops, that's why I trust in Yah to be my strengh in my weaknesses, one of which is maths and percentages.
Offline JamesH  
#19 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:00:36 PM(UTC)
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Numbers 21: 8, 9 8 Then Yahweh said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."
9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
I think the key word is the original language meaning of standard. We have to understand that because of sin we die and because of Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits Yahweh's Grace we can look to Yahweh and live and then choose Relationship. J
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#20 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:27:26 PM(UTC)
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Shalom friends,


As touching how much truth does one need to become saved? I would also use the example that inwhich In His Name used of the thief on the cross. I've always looked at that as having two knowable truths in it, 1) we can be saved at anytime in ourlives all the way up until we die, 2) we only need alittle understanding of the truth in order to become saved, it is through the HEARING not the understanding of the word that we can receive our faith, there are a few more, but I'll there. We can also wonder how much truth did Able have and those in Nineveh, Jonah basically only gave them a warning of a coming judgment, they didn't receive a message of salvation. We must reconize that we are under the judgment of Yahuweh and become broken & humbled before him, knowing there nothing we can do to receive salvation, we can only cry to him for mercy and HOPE and WAIT for the salvation of the Most High Elohim. We can understand truth only when he removes the scales from our eyes, then it is made EASY to find him because it was he whom first found & loved us. Other than that he has made it hard for us to find him, he has spoken to us it parables that we can see, but not preceive & hear and not understand.

I also would like to share in what % of the whole of mankind will be saved, I was looking at a verse that many seem to believe are the Asian coming from the east upon Israel to join in on their destuction. I would beg to differ with that when you take a closer look at the verse Rev.9:16 " And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them." This is something I've been working on, it appears they can be the believers 200 million and they come from the east just as Yahushua does and they bring judgment with fire and brimestone just as Yahushua does, I'm not finished working through all the scriptures from both the OT & NT to come to a certainty on this but I thought I would share it with you brothers. Anyway even if it is the number might only represent the total sum of the witness of Yahuweh, the two representing witnesses of the word and the zero's the completion of them. Does anyone know if kp has finish with the work he was doing with thye symbols & numbers and their meaning, I remember see that at some point and would very much like to see what he came up with. Take care guys.
Offline bitnet  
#21 Posted : Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:03:26 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Celebrating the Resurrection. Er, interesting discussion above but am I in the wrong thread? As far as I know, we celebrate Yahushua's resurrection because it confirms His power over death and that He can give us eternal life. It proves that He is Who He said He is and it confirms everything that has been written in Scripture. From that point on, we can be sure that everything that is written will come to be. We only need to know how to live the way He wants us to, and that is to love each other. Rituals don't matter, they are not eternal. But the attitude we show and character we develop will determine whether we shall be capable of living in harmony for eternity. Working on merit, we deserve nothing eternal. But He has shown that He is capable of changing things for us... if we really want it. And that is all we need to express: our desire to live in love and to follow Him as He leads. Again, it is not so much as how much we know but how we express whom we are and showing our faith in Him. For me, Bikuwrym has taken on a new dimension, and Shabuwa' is where I find His expression of His love for us through the sharing of His Spirit with us. Taruw'ah is when He removes us from the troubles of the world (and which may be why He asks whether He will find faith on this earth when He comes) and Kippurym is when He reconciles us with Him before tabernacling with us during Sukah.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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