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Offline Matthew  
#1 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2009 1:15:33 PM(UTC)
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EDIT (date 30/7/2009): Just sticking this right on my first post for easy access: Yada covers this question on the 8th episode of God's Word on blogtalkradio.com/yada, date 20/7/2009, please click HERE to directly listen to, or click HERE to download the mp3 file (13.9MB size). I recommend people listen to the whole 1 hour long broadcast.

ORIGINAL POST BELOW (unedited):

From the YY Letters thread:

sirgodfrey wrote:
Yada wrote:
The Savior’s name is not “Jesus.” If you don’t know God’s name and title, you don’t know Him. There is nothing more basic.


This is an uber strong statement. What are some thoughts on this from other brothers and sisters? Source


Robskiwarrior wrote:
sirgodfrey wrote:
This is an uber strong statement. What are some thoughts on this from other brothers and sisters?


I would say I agree in many respects. I know that for example if it had not been learning about His Name, I would not ever have learnt anymore about Him... I think a lot of people know about Him... its kinda like the celeb culture... you feel like you know someone because you read about them or you see them on the news/TV all the time - but in actual fact you know nothing about them, and if you ever met them half the things you thought you knew about them were lies spread across the tabloids to make you read them in the first place.

To know Him is different, and I can vouch for that. lol Source


sirgodfrey wrote:
I must agree that learning of His name has opened many doors for me. Geez, how deep does the deception go. I cannot stop thinking about how so many people are duped. Ones that are laboring and toiling in the "name" of God maybe surprised come judgement - that is a scary thought to me dude. Source


In His Name wrote:
sirgodfrey wrote:
I must agree that learning of His name has opened many doors for me. Geez, how deep does the deception go. I cannot stop thinking about how so many people are duped. Ones that are laboring and toiling in the "name" of God maybe surprised come judgement - that is a scary thought to me dude.


Yep. 'How wrong can we be... and still be right?'

Learning His true name was the first "correction" to my spiritual thinking. It allowed me to shake off the blinders of knowledge, that kept me from even paying attention to anything that challenged my spiritual viewpoint, and see the false information that I had long accepted as truth.

At this point I just want to get as close to Him as possible! Source


Robskiwarrior wrote:
I agree whole heartledly with both you guys.

and Godfrey it scares the pants off me, especially when you start talking and people think you are mad - especially the christians you know and love. Source


Ok, so can someone call on the name of Jesus and still be saved?

Edited by user Thursday, July 30, 2009 10:23:52 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2009 1:53:00 PM(UTC)
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This is something I balance on like on would a fence in an debate lol

If Jesus isn't even a name that is related in any way to Yahushua - which factually, it isn't really... then its not the "Name above all Names", its something else. If I call on the name of Allah, would that save me - even if I truly believed that I was talking to the God of Abraham, coz Muslims tell me that's what Allah is...

But then I think, would Yah really be that "mean". These people obviously are thankful for the sacrifice, even if they get His Name wrong.

But then I think, well, seek and you will find... the path is narrow... there is so much emphasis on Yahuweh's Name being something that we need to call on... do ya know what I mean... Scriptures say that people will be deceived... I mean how received is too deceived... Isn't that just a trick question to try and still the fears in my mind that pretty much 99% of my friends will be annihilated if left in their current state?

But then Christians boast of such wonderful experiences - and I was one of them, are these experiences of huge love and peace and even sometimes visions all false? made up in our minds? projected to us from Satan's evil HP projector of lies?

All I see in Scripture is deception doesn't lead to life, that we need to be following His way - running the race to the finish, Seeking, finding, knocking... edging our way along that narrow path... When I look back at where I came from, why would He take me out of that if I was already safe... I was happy, had loads of friends, was able to play drums every week - which I miss lol... Sing lovely songs, feel the "spirit" move... What was all that stuff, if I had to come out of it... If its not so bad...

I have more questions than answers - but as each day goes by I am faced with the fear that maybe there might be a good few people who get a shock... I just hope they are shocked before its too late.

Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline sirgodfrey  
#3 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2009 4:43:51 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
When I look back at where I came from, why would He take me out of that if I was already safe...


a very good observation and also a good question

Quote:
I was happy, had loads of friends, was able to play drums every week - which I miss lol


LOLOL :) miss those drums!!


honestly, it just seems that the more that I learn, the more "Jesus" starts looking like a completely different god. and that is uber scary.
Offline BiynaYahu  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2009 5:00:16 PM(UTC)
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sirgodfrey wrote:
honestly, it just seems that the more that I learn, the more "Jesus" starts looking like a completely different god.


This really is how I'm starting to see things. I mean I feel terrible sorry for those entrenched in religion, but really the entire time I was a churchgoer I felt like I was missing something. Also, right from the beginning the fact that I didn't know god's name, and that it was removed from bibles really bothered me. Plus, it absolutely was my search for his name that led me to understand the fallacy of religion. So, I think those that love Yahuweh our amazing dad will quite literally be called by his name.
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#5 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2009 5:09:47 PM(UTC)
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"Jesus" - the biggest god in the world - yet He doesn't even exist. wow.
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#6 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2009 6:17:47 PM(UTC)
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Shalom friends,

Rev.19:11-13 " And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew,but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of Yahweh."


Can anyone tell me if the name no man knows is Yahweh? If it's not Yahweh, then it seems that we are in the same boat as those that call him Jesus. If it is Yahweh, then how come it says no man will know it? HELP *%#?@*
Offline Theophilus  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 28, 2009 3:34:36 AM(UTC)
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BiynaYahu wrote:
This really is how I'm starting to see things. I mean I feel terrible sorry for those entrenched in religion, but really the entire time I was a churchgoer I felt like I was missing something. Also, right from the beginning the fact that I didn't know god's name, and that it was removed from bibles really bothered me. Plus, it absolutely was my search for his name that led me to understand the fallacy of religion. So, I think those that love Yahuweh our amazing dad will quite literally be called by his name.

I'll confess that this is a difficult one for me to address. As Yada noted how wrong can we be and still be right in our Father's eyes?

I'm guessing that I'm not alone here in saying that even while sorrounded by religion, my consistant prayers were to sincerely know the Creator and in doing so to please Him. I think finding what I've learned here is an answer to that plea.

I recall as a child asking what "the LORD's" actual name is that we keep singing and praising and being told "Yahweh." I asked why then don't we call Him that since His Son told us that He is our Father, and being answered that using the title LORD was a sign of respect. I'm wondering how many other Christians know what the LORD's proper name is and also believe that using a title instead is honoring Him rather than distancing themselves.

What I suspect is at issue is, does the reality of the One we believe that we are seeking to know and spend eternity with essentially match the authentic Being. That is what I gather from Yahushua's words to his relgious critics. If you knew the Father you would welcome Me. If you hate the diminished human manifestation, you would hate the Father (the Undiminished Yah) also for Yahuweh and Yahushua are a unified one.

If you love Muhammad and wage jihad, seeking booty in Allah's Paradise, would eternity with Yahweh be undesired as opposed to non-existance? Would fellowship with infidels be such a let down from romping with Allah's virgins that Yah's kingdom would be a let down? I'm guessing this does not match the essetial Being of Yahuweh nor eternal fellowship with the same. In such a case it is difficult for me to see how Yah could force such a difference in expectations.



Offline sirgodfrey  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:06:48 AM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:
Now, if we're willing to say that Muslim's aren't "saved" because they don't call upon Yahuweh/Yahushua's name, but instead call upon the name of "Allah," why do we find it so hard to say that those who call upon the name of "Jesus" aren't "saved", when frankly, they're in the exact same boat as the Muslim's?

I don't think we can show favouritism just because most of us came from out of Christianity, and not Islam.



I'm guessing its because of the perceived "working of the Spirit" in their lives. The person doesn't sell drugs anymore or the person isn't living a life characterized by "sin" such as sleeping with hoards of women or vice versa, so they must be saved...right?

Personally, I'm just not crystal clear on the aforementioned anymore. Rejecting His name leads to rejecting Him altogether as His name reveals so much more in regards to Torah, Feasts and such. Studying Torah one can get a clearer view of His character. There is more, but in a nutshell, you come to know who He is as He revealed Himself. Rejecting all of this leads to one not knowing too much about Him even though they may feel they are best friends.
Offline Matthew  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:28:09 PM(UTC)
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I think a person can call on the personal name of "Jesus" and be saved. I have some friends who are passionate about "the Lord", they're not serving Baal, but the God of the Scriptures. Yes they might have be following a few lies, but how many of us know the absolute truth? How many of us are perfect in knowledge?

Here are three quotes from YY, Chapter 5 - Tsadaq, Book V - Vindication. I quote the first one as it relates to the second quote in that David would proclaim God's Name of Yahushua to the brethren:

Quote:
"Far (rachowq - remote in distance and time, separated in space-time; alienated and no longer in a state of close association; from rachaq, meaning to be removed and distant, to be sent off and to go far) away from (min - out of and separated from) Yahushua, My salvation (yashuw'ah (יְשׁוּעָה) - Yahushua; a compound name derived from Yahuweh and yasha' (יָשַׁע) to save, salvation, and Savior) are the words of my groaning (sheagah - roaring anguish). O my God ('elohiym), I call out (qara' - summon) in the daytime (yowmam), but You do not answer ('anah - respond); and by night (layil) but I have no rest (dumiyah - silence or relief; repose from laying down in death)." (Psalm 22:1-2)


Quote:
"I will relate (saphar - record, recount, reckon, rehearse, declare, proclaim) Your name (shem - Your proper designation, reputation, renown, fame, glory, status, memorial, mark, domain, establishment, appointed ordination, and Your means to be distinguished) to my brethren ('ach - brothers, relatives, kin, and tribe) in the midst of the assembly (qahal - congregation, convocation, and community), radiating Your brilliant source of clear light (halal)." (Psalm 22:22)


Quote:
"Yahuweh is my Shepard, I shall not be without (chaser - go down, be diminished in mass, position, or dimension; decrease or be abated; be deprived, lacking or wanting anything). He lays me down in green pastures. He leads me beside restful waters. He restores (shub - changes, renews, and returns) my soul (nepesh). He guides (nachah - leads, creating opportunities in a reliable state of trust for) me in the paths (ma'gal - teaching, directions in life, the encampment, and the way) of vindication (tsadaq - justification and salvation, truthfulness, being right with God) for His name's (shem - position's, authority's, character's) sake (ma'an - purpose and intent, account, answer, and response)." (Psalm 23:1-3)


I find it terribly hard to believe that God would not save someone who uses (call's upon) the name of "Jesus" in their daily life, believes in the Son, and love's his neighbour and loves God (the one who authored the Bible). Just because Yahweh received the title "the Lord" by man's doing doesn't suddenly mean the God of the Bible has become Baal, and therefore Satan. Just because Yahshua received the name of Jesus doesn't suddenly make Him the druid who goes my the name of Gesus. For example, the "ai" in the name of Yada I pronounce the same as the "ai" in the word bait, but I've seen people pronounce his name as if they were saying creg, like as if saying a keg of beer, only now with an "r" sound thrown in. Has Yada now suddenly become someone else even if I believe the same things about him as what the other person does?

The reason I posted the second and third quote is because of the full meaning of the word shem. It doesn't just mean "personal name", but also means "reputation, renown, fame, glory, status, memorial, mark, domain, establishment, appointed ordination" and "position, authority, character." It's not that the personal name saves, but rather it is who God is that saves. What about those from the Yahwist religion, they too call upon Yahweh? Just using them as an example, they are seriously guilty of corrupting the Scriptures big-time but they too use the Name of Yahweh to call upon.

If someone confesses their sin, believes in the Son and what He did, and then starts to love God through a change of heart will God not impart His Spirit to them even though they used the name of "Jesus" in their prayer of repentance?

Did William Tyndale know God's Hebrew Names? Because if by mistake calling on the personal name of Jesus isn't worthy of salvation then I guess Tyndale did everything for nothing, and died an unsaved martyr.

Anyway, I don't promote the personal name of Jesus but now promote the Name of Yahshua. There is obviously great benefit in knowing God's proper Name, just look at FH, TOM, YY for the truth that can be found in knowing the real Names.

My prayer was to know the truth, I addressed God as I knew how, I called upon the God of the Bible and I addressed Him with the word "the Lord" from my tongue. Did Baal answer me? No, Yahweh did.

sirgodfrey wrote:
honestly, it just seems that the more that I learn, the more "Jesus" starts looking like a completely different god. and that is uber scary.


Yahshua is still Yahshua regardless of being given another name. He becomes a different God only when people paint a completely different picture of Him, for example saying He's not God in the flesh, He wasn't raised to life, etc.

I can't find an accurate source to say how many languages the Bible has been translated into, but can the Name of Yahweh and Yahshua be transliterated perfectly into every single one?

End of waffle! ;)
Offline James  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:26:22 AM(UTC)
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Hello all, I am James' wife and I just wanted to let you know Matthew that you just helped me a lot with what you just said. I agree that the true name of God is Yahweh and that the true name of Jesus is Yahshua and I have grown closer to God from knowing His name and it's meaning. Notice I say closer because I do not feel that in all my years of being a Christian I have been seeking God in vain. Nor do I feel that I have been worshiping a different God. This particular issue has been very difficult for me because my father was a great help in the growth of my relationship with God and he is dead now and it disturbed me to think that he would not get to meet the God that he spent his life seeking and showing his daughters how to seek because he did not call upon his real name but knew His real character.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline James  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:27:57 AM(UTC)
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While I agree that all those who call on the name Jesus are not lost, they are not heading down the right path either. I would say that if you want to know Yahweh, you will seek him, and seek and you shall find. Those who do not seek him do not want to know him, and those that seek him find him, and finding his true name is not hard. But if when you find the truth you reject it for the traditions of man, are you really seeking truth?

I agree as well with Matthew that it is not only the name, but also the Character, renown, reputation etc that matters. But a God that wish us to call him Lord and bow down and worship him, is not the same character as Yahweh. A God that says that you will worship me or burn for eternity, is not the same character as Yahweh.

While there are some in chritianity that do know the character of Yahweh but don't call him by name, for the most part the character of the God preached in churches, and promoted by chirstians does not appear to be that of Yahweh in many respects.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

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Offline edStueart  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:15:02 PM(UTC)
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Swalchy wrote:

[snip--snip]
But I too struggle with those who call upon the name of "Jesus". "Jesus" just doesn't exist - it isn't the "name above all names" and it isn't the "whoever calls upon the name of Jesus shall be saved" is it? Now, if we're willing to say that Muslim's aren't "saved" because they don't call upon Yahuweh/Yahushua's name, but instead call upon the name of "Allah," why do we find it so hard to say that those who call upon the name of "Jesus" aren't "saved", when frankly, they're in the exact same boat as the Muslim's?

I don't think we can show favouritism just because most of us came from out of Christianity, and not Islam.


Kablam!

(That was the sound of my head exploding.)
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline kp  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:48:02 PM(UTC)
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When I was three years old, I did not know that my father's name was Richard Wallace Power. I didn't know he signed his name R.W. Power. I didn't know his friends called him "Dick, " not Richard or Rick. I just figured his name was "daddy," 'cause that's how mom referred to him when I was part of the conversation, but I may have suspected his real name was "Honey," 'cause that's what she called him when I wasn't in the room. Was he my father? Yes. Did I understand his character? As far as it concerned me, sure I did. Did I know that he loved me, took care of me, provided for me? Absolutely. But when you get right down to it, I really didn't know a lot about my father when I was three. But that didn't seem to bother him, because we shared a relationship: he was the father, and I was the son---he was the big, strong man who went away every morning and came back every night, kissed my mom, and hugged me and my brothers. I had no idea he was an accountant, and if I had known, I still wouldn't have understood what that was. All I knew is that he loved me, and I trusted him. I had no reason not to. Now that I'm older, I know more. But the relationship I shared with my father never depended on my knowledge. It simply was.

When I was thirty years old, I did not know that my God's name was Yahuweh (rather than The Lord), or that my Savior's name was Yahushua (not Jesus). But I knew that He loved me, and I trusted him. Now that I'm older, I know more. Knowledge is a good thing. It is to be greatly desired. But it is not the same thing as relationship.

kp
Offline bitnet  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:40:15 PM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Which is why I said what I said previously, that knowing the name is not a magic formula either and that we need the right attitude and approach while understanding the nature of our Creator and His love for us all.

When Yahushua said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do," it was a prayer of intercession for grace and those who wished Him dead. Much of what the world's problems are now caused by those who wish Israel dead, and in time, will wish us the same fate as well. Many of them know not what they do, but are truly deceived. It is the deceivers who instill hatred and inspire people to actively break Torah who will face Yahweh's wrath. But those who respect the Creator and strive to follow His Word as best as they know and can in love, I think Yahweh will have mercy and grace beyond comprehension.

I don't mean to say that they will have a free pass to heaven because they are/were ignorant, but that even though they miss the VVIP early admission seats now, they may still make it in later and none of us are to be jealous or envious but are to be glad and rejoice that those with love in the hearts can be members of Yahweh's Family. It shall probably be us helping them understanding the true identity of the Creator during their "orientation".
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:40:04 PM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:

When Yahushua said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do," it was a prayer of intercession for grace and those who wished Him dead.


It actually looks like that was a later addition to the Greek... I'm sure swaclhy can talk more on that.

Well I was quite happy in my relationship within Christianity, I didn't know His Name but I had relationship, I had friends and people understood me... If that was all fine, why am I here... whats the point in deepening a relationship that was all happy anyway. I had a great support network if I ever felt like crap, a great role within music and worship - and I just threw that all away for what? A little more truth that doesn't really make any eternal difference?

Either I have been had, and I've thrown my old life away for no good reason, or something else.

I don't buy it.

If I Yah is happy for everyone else to live as Christians, then what we are doing makes no sense at all. And what of the others? If there are so many Christians that have a loving relationship with their god, what of all the other religions where people have huge connections to their gods. Muslims think there god is great, and their devotional life is much better than a Christians - they claim that they worship the God of Abraham, so surely they are fine too... I mean even the "extremists", yea they might kill lots of people but hey, "forgive them for they know not what they do..."

What about JW's? They call themselves Christians, they love pretty much what Christians love / with maybe a few changes, what makes them fail in the relationship game - other than their lack of knowledge...

It makes no sense, if for that simple reason that "God knows who I mean" I'm going back to Christianity, or maybe I might be a Mormon - i mean, Yah knows I mean Him so its ok.

We were here for a reason, my world was destroyed for a reason, and not just because I might not have understood something properly. If not, im gonna be mighty hacked off.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline bitnet  
#16 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:18:10 AM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Whoa! Of course knowing Him NOW counts for something, Robski! I fully agree with you. We have left/are leaving Babylon to walk in the Light of Torah, and we are led by the Set-Apart Spirit by the grace of Abba Yahweh. We get into all sorts of situations with those around us who do not think it necessary to walk in His Way as He called us to do, but we do it anyway. We praise Yahweh for leading us and giving us the Ruach haQodesh so that we can follow Him closer, and when we do we get to join in the VVIP Club of Bikkurym.

Now as for the others, if they hear the call but fail to take the plunge, they miss the Bikkurym bus. They shall be judged by their actions later by Yahweh, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Judaism, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. I'm afraid that many will be lost because they will still refuse to know Him as He reveals Himself, instead depending upon their preconceived ideas of what God must look like. But those who truly longed for Him during their lifetime, but within the limits of their own knowledge and understanding, may receive a "pardon" if they confess that Yahweh is their Creator and that Yahushua is the only one who can provide salvation.

For instance, those who lived through the Great Trib but who never "converted" but gave comfort and care to the 144,000 because of their belief in expressing love to a fellow human, may very well be among those who shall be judged by their works. Judgement does not mean automatic sentencing to dissipation or separation, if you get the drift.

Much is going to happen over the next 25 years and it is gonna be one crazy ride and I for one do not wish to be judged by my actions but will call upon Him for mercy and grace through Yahushua, not just because I want to but also because He leads me to Him as by myself I am nothing. So we walk in Torah not just because we have to but because we want to, and that differs us from the rest who call upon Him but do not do as He says. Will the others who miss the Bikkurym bus have to walk according to Torah to be saved? No, but they will have to because they shall want to be saved and shall acknowledge Yahushua when they are resurrected at their appointed time.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline James  
#17 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:33:45 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
bitnet wrote:

When Yahushua said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do," it was a prayer of intercession for grace and those who wished Him dead.


It actually looks like that was a later addition to the Greek... I'm sure swaclhy can talk more on that.


I would be interested in hearing more on this.


Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline edStueart  
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:18:42 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
It shall probably be us helping them understanding the true identity of the Creator during their "orientation".


So we are back to "summer school". My dad was right... ;-)

robskiwarrior wrote:
"God knows who I mean"


If I accidently call my wife by my ex-wife's name, she "knows who I mean", but it does not please her at all. I am quite sure that it does nothing good for our relationship, either.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#19 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:24:49 PM(UTC)
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edStueart wrote:

If I accidently call my wife by my ex-wife's name, she "knows who I mean", but it does not please her at all. I am quite sure that it does nothing good for our relationship, either.



that was the best thing ever, I could even see the "wife scowl" lol

Either people have a relationship or they don't. Relationships develop - and Christians believe that their relationship does develop... my short stint as a born again Christian lasted 15 years, I know some of you guys have done it for much longer... I believed I had developed, I could even look patronisingly a new Christians and their "silly" questions and pat them on the head and reassure them that "one day they would get it"... I spoke in tongues, I fell down in the "spirit", I was overwhelmed by the presence of "god" in a room full of worshipping peers... When all this new information came along, it wasn't a development in relationship - it was destruction... I was walking in completely the opposite direction to what I am now.

I recognise that I have made a transition, or Yah moved me into a new position, where I feel I am no longer walking on the same road... I thought I was on the narrow path, but I had no idea... My Christian peers arnt on the same path I am, that's for sure - so whats that mean? Where are they going? If only one way leads to Him and the other to destruction... surely just saying "its ok they have a relationship, no matter how infantile it is" if they are on the wrong path... I dunno..

See this is where I struggle with the whole question, part of me wants to take the easy route and claim that these guys are just blinded by the lies they have been taught, but because they really believe in Yahushua as Jesus, and The Lord as Yah, and everything else that goes with it - (which we all know is far too huge for a brief summery) that they will be ok in the end because they reallllyyy believe... yea it makes me feel better, it also lets me off the hook somewhat, but it also defies all logic for me even being where I am now...

If Yah states that "my people are destroyed through lack of knowledge" (sorry to rip a verse out of context) then surely people are destroyed through lack of knowledge. If you sign up for a belief system that Yah never started, and fall for the lies that people tell you within it, arnt you just being led to destruction? Isn't that the point of the religion, to believe lies, be fooled and led away?

Maybe Christianity is the best one for playing the mind games, I mean its closest to the truth, but maybe that's where the danger lies? Its all too easy for us to call out other religions for being wrong, but all religion is merely lies and half truth - whats the point in the truth that Yah loves so much if we can reach the goal doing what we want and riding in on a free grace ticket because we were deceived at the least and ignorant at the worst?

It just makes no sense - and I still cant decided... Im still on the fence!!

Just speakin my thoughts out :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#20 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:24:23 PM(UTC)
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Shalom friends

Brothers, I know that this is a hard saying to swallow, but I as I'm sure the rest here have heard the call of Rev.18:4-8 "...Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and Yahweh hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is Yahweh Elohim who judgeth her.

The churches (the Whore) is a TYPE of or is the crown of pride, or the drunkards of Ephraim (Jerusalem) of the OT, inwhich we read of in Isa.28:14-18 "Wherefore hear the word of Yahweh, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves. Therefore thus saith the Master Yahweh, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

The churches are also a type of the daughter of the king of the south and the king of the north is a type or representation of satan, we read in Dan.11:6 "And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; ; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times."

Then in Isa.47:8-10 "Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me."

Brothers, the christian churches are just as the OT tribes of Yahweh, their pastors have lead them astray with the perversion of his word, that they are blinded by their false beliefs (strong delusion). They teach them peace, peace, when there is no peace, for when they say peace and safety, sudden desruction will come upon them. The call has and is going forth to come out of her my people, those that hear Yahweh voice will listen to his command, for my sheep know my voice, those who don't will be partaker of the sins of the Whore. May we pray always for those that we love to come out of her.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#21 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:58:51 PM(UTC)
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What exactly does being "partakers of her sins mean?" Is it to receive the same penalty?
Offline In His Name  
#22 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:16:27 PM(UTC)
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TheWayToYahuweh.com wrote:
‘Do not separate and sunder, make distinctions between people and dispute, debate and take issue, discriminate and determine the destination of people’s souls, bring contention and differentiation, make a decision and evaluation, assessment and judgement, so that and in order that you may not be separated and sundered, made distinctions between and disputed, debated and taken issue with, discriminated and have your destination determined, contented and differentiated, decided and evaluated, assessed and judged. For the reason that in, by and with the verdict and judgement, decision and evaluation, condemnation and punishment, determination and assessment, legal decree and sentence you separate and sunder, make distinctions between people and dispute, debate and take issue, discriminate and determine the destination of people’s souls, bring contention and differentiation, make a decision and evaluation, assessment and judgement, you will be separated and sundered, made distinctions between and disputed, debated and taken issue with, discriminated and have your destination determined, contented and differentiated, decided and evaluated, assessed and judged, and in, by and with what measure and determined extent, portion and limit, standard and rule you use to measure and determine extents, portions and limits, standards and rules, it will be used to measure and determine your extent, portion and limit, standard and rule. And why do you perceive and examine, mentally discern and observe, discover and understand, consider and contemplate, pay close attention to and notice, direct your attention to and face, be aware of and take note of the speck and splinter, chaff, woodchip and particle within and inside your brother and fellow brethren’s eye, and yet you don’t perceive or observe, understand or attentively consider, fix your gaze or mind upon, notice or envisage, think about or contemplate, study, examine or reflect upon the plank and beam, log and shaft within and inside your own eye? Or how and in what manner or way will you say and utter to your brother and fellow brethren, “Allow and permit, tolerate and let me, so that I may throw out and expel, drive and repudiate, pull and tear out, bring and send out, cast and extract out, dispose of and eject, banish and get rid of the speck and splinter, chaff, woodchip and particle from out of your eye,” and behold, look and see! The plank and beam, log and shaft is within and inside your own eye!? Hypocrite and actor, pretender and dissembler, duplicator and insincere, false and pretentious, fraudulent and counterfeit person! firstly and chiefly, principally and most importantly, throw out and expel, drive and repudiate, pull and tear out, bring and send out, cast and extract out, dispose of and eject, banish and get rid of the plank and beam, log and shaft from out of your own eye, and then, at that time, you will see clearly to throw out and expel, drive and repudiate, pull and tear out, bring and send out, cast and extract out, dispose of and eject, banish and get rid of the speck and splinter, chaff, woodchip and particle from out of your brother and fellow brethren’s eye. Do not give or grant, supply or furnish, bestow or deliver, commit or permit, extend or present that which is set-apart and cleansed to the street dogs, the humans of impure mind and the perverts, and do not throw or cast, scatter or hurl, propel or fling your pearls and proverbs in the presence of or in the sight of, in front of or before the swine and pigs, least, at anytime, they will walk over and trampled on, insult and spurn, despise and show disdain for, deny and show contempt, neglect and spurn them in, by and with their feet, and having turned around, bending, twisting and changing their mind, they will tear and rip, burst and break you to pieces, distorting and causing you to convulse, dashing and hurling you to the ground to devour you.


My 2 cents: I think while we can make decisions and distinctions for ourselves, it is wrong for us to believe we can know the fate of another. If you believe that you may help the situation(congregation) and are strong enough to keep yourself safe, then do what you can, but per the last verse above and Yada's example (see YY and POD letters thread) do not invest yourself in those whose minds are closed. If you believe the situation may harm you, stay away.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Yahshuaslavejeff  
#23 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:11:41 PM(UTC)
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Joined: 5/12/2008(UTC)
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if you stand up for the truth. if you are a witness of / for the truth. (a martyr for the Lamb's sake).
then they (whatever group they are - religious, political, medical, social, union, financial)
yes,
then they will kick you out.
..
if you do not stand up for the truth. if you do not live/carry/show the testimony of Yahshua
then
He will not speak up for you.
..
Offline edStueart  
#24 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:47:27 PM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
Maybe Christianity is the best one for playing the mind games, I mean its closest to the truth, but maybe that's where the danger lies?


The best, most effective lie is 99% true.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
But first, it will piss you off!
Offline James  
#25 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2009 5:15:27 AM(UTC)
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Robskiwarrior wrote:
See this is where I struggle with the whole question, part of me wants to take the easy route and claim that these guys are just blinded by the lies they have been taught, but because they really believe in Yahushua as Jesus, and The Lord as Yah, and everything else that goes with it - (which we all know is far too huge for a brief summery) that they will be ok in the end because they reallllyyy believe... yea it makes me feel better, it also lets me off the hook somewhat, but it also defies all logic for me even being where I am now...

If Yah states that "my people are destroyed through lack of knowledge" (sorry to rip a verse out of context) then surely people are destroyed through lack of knowledge. If you sign up for a belief system that Yah never started, and fall for the lies that people tell you within it, arnt you just being led to destruction? Isn't that the point of the religion, to believe lies, be fooled and led away?

Maybe Christianity is the best one for playing the mind games, I mean its closest to the truth, but maybe that's where the danger lies? Its all too easy for us to call out other religions for being wrong, but all religion is merely lies and half truth - whats the point in the truth that Yah loves so much if we can reach the goal doing what we want and riding in on a free grace ticket because we were deceived at the least and ignorant at the worst?

It just makes no sense - and I still cant decided... Im still on the fence!!


I'm with you Robski, I would love to believe they are on the right path, but I just don't know, and I'm not going to assume they are. Thankfully it is not up to me to decide, but I will continue to try to be there to help open as many eyes as possible. I won't tell them they aren't in relationship with Yah, but I also won't tell them they are. To use Yadas words, I'm trying to expose lies and witness to the truth, not determine the fate of others.


Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#26 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2009 5:32:01 AM(UTC)
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Shalom sirgodfrey,

Quote:
What exactly does being "partakers of her sins mean?" Is it to receive the same penalty?


SGF, to be partakers of her sins means to act out in the false teachings of the Whore, they are rooted in paganism, in doing so they break the first commandment in worshipping a false god. Yes they believe there is but one God and he sent his Son to take on the sins of the world, but if their teachings are rooted in paganism, then their god has to be false. Therefore they worship a false christ and we are warned about that, so they are without excuse. Yes, they will receive the same penalty, we can see this in Rev.18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Rev.18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is Yahweh Elohim who judgeth her.

So, those that don't listen to the command to come out will receive her plagues, there is still time left for them to hear and understand the command, but we are told that there will come a time when Yahweh will put them under a strong delusion (give them up to their sins by hardening their hearts) at that time it will be very difficult for them to come out.
Offline sirgodfrey  
#27 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2009 6:11:28 AM(UTC)
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dang yo.
Offline bitnet  
#28 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2009 7:16:49 AM(UTC)
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Shalom,

Again, there is no other name by which one can be saved. So it is prudent to find that NAME! If people do not know the name, and subsequently call themselves by some other name, and believe in some other doctrine, they are misled or misleading. Is their error intentional? We cannot tell, but error is error, and if they themselves do nothing to get themselves out of it the consequences as know it are dire. All we can do is to get out of Babylon ourselves and then throw lifelines around. Some others may pick it up, others may mistakenly want to continue in their error for they are unable to unwilling to discern for themselves. When the end-time comes, they will have no option! They shall be blinded and shall believe in their own deceptions. This deception is going on even now! Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. are all deceptions. So is secular humanism, communism and fascism in any form. So is the gay movement and absolute liberalism. All are human deceptions to which much of the world subscribes to. All shall pay a stiff price. Christians will suffer as well. Will they repent? Many will! So are they condemned now? Not for me to say but while they continue in error, who or what shall save them? Only Yahweh's Grace and Mercy! And I for one will not question when and how He dispenses with either. I can only ask for it for myself and my family today. In turn, I shall try to walk in His path and hope that others, Christians especially, shall observe and eventually follow. So can someone call on Jesus and be saved? Might people call on Allah, Buddha, Shiva and Sai Baba and be saved? Whooosh! You know the answer to that!
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline James  
#29 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2009 8:01:46 AM(UTC)
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bitnet wrote:
All we can do is to get out of Babylon ourselves and then throw lifelines around. Some others may pick it up


I think that is the best thing we can get out of this. We don't KNOW their fate, so we should continue to try to help them.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Matthew  
#30 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2009 6:46:13 AM(UTC)
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I know some of us sit on the fence on this one, and some times I think our feelings are valid in some cases where Christians calling upon the name of Jesus aren't saved. On some other forums some Christians make an absolute mockery of God's personal Name. Even after they've received knowledge that His Name is Yahweh and that of His Son is Yahshua (Proverbs 30:4) they still respond saying it's a pointless discussion and that it doesn't matter which name you use, as if what they are really saying is "I'll just stick to using the name of Jesus, because it fits my doctrinal beliefs, you know, things like the Trinity, the Gift of Tongues, the Law was Nailed, etc." I don't mind if some make one or two objections at first, because I did it too at one stage, but for them to persist at it to the point of mockery begs one to question their salvation. I don't expect everyone to accept the Hebrew Names, Feasts, Sabbath, etc. but some are seriously antagonistic towards anything related to it.

James wrote:
bitnet wrote:
All we can do is to get out of Babylon ourselves and then throw lifelines around. Some others may pick it up



I think that is the best thing we can get out of this. We don't KNOW their fate, so we should continue to try to help them.

I'm slowly grasping that concept of being persistent and clothed in love at all times ;)
Offline In His Name  
#31 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2009 9:19:23 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
Matthew wrote:
Quote:
James wrote:
Quote:
bitnet wrote:
All we can do is to get out of Babylon ourselves and then throw lifelines around. Some others may pick it up




I think that is the best thing we can get out of this. We don't KNOW their fate, so we should continue to try to help them.


I'm slowly grasping that concept of being persistent and clothed in love at all times ;)


Yeah, I think you guys have it.

Saturday night the neighbors had a bonfire and we were sitting around talking. Out of nowhere she said something like the old testament was irrelevant and superseded by the new, then the new covenant replaces the old and the old laws are no longer valid and the belief of her church (Lutheran) is that the Bible is a MYTH, merely somebody finally writing down oral tradition.

This was the first time I had been confronted with a lot of this stuff, I was shocked and in disbelief that she could really hold these beliefs. They make no sense, they are illogical, they are contradictory.

Well the discussion got pretty heated (civil, but heated). She was very locked in to her worldview (blinded by her beliefs) and on most counts I could only get her to " we'll have to agree to disagree". But I think (hope) I got a couple of points across that made her think. Hopefully Yah will help her pick up one of those lifelines.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline sirgodfrey  
#32 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2009 9:53:40 AM(UTC)
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In His Name, it's awesome that you were graced with a chance to speak concerning the things of Yah. Many times now, I take opportunities as they arrive to speak about things rather than blasting people in the face as I did whilst being trapped within Christendom. May Yah bless her to pick up one of those lifelines indeed.
Offline James  
#33 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2009 10:08:14 AM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:
Saturday night the neighbors had a bonfire and we were sitting around talking. Out of nowhere she said something like the old testament was irrelevant and superseded by the new, then the new covenant replaces the old and the old laws are no longer valid and the belief of her church (Lutheran) is that the Bible is a MYTH, merely somebody finally writing down oral tradition.


I'm just speechless that their church teaches that the Bible is a MYTH. My wife's family is Lutheran, and I don't think any of them would make that statement, but that doesn't mean that it's not the church's position, I will have to look into that. i know often a churches position isn't known by many of the followers, I can't count how many Catholics I know that don't really know much about any of the catholic church's positions. I wonder if that is the actual position of the Lutheran church.

In His Name wrote:
the old testament was irrelevant and superseded by the new, then the new covenant replaces the old and the old laws are no longer valid


My wife and I have been doing a study using Yada Yahweh, it is her first time to read through it. We have stated at the begining, and are currently reading through the Miqra volume. Whenever she talks with her family about what she has read she sites some of the scripture that she has read, and in the early volumes it is almost entirely from the Old Covenant Scripture, they ask, "Well does he ever cover the New Testament?" Christian's have a tendency to ignore the OC all together, and focus on the RC instead. I have tried over and over to explain to them that it is impossible to under stand the Renewed with out understanding the Old.

I think the reason so many Christian's have errant understandings of the Renewed Covenant is because they discount the old and therefore don't understand it. You just can't grasp the New/Renewed until you understand the Old.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline In His Name  
#34 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2009 10:29:04 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:

I think the reason so many Christian's have errant understandings of the Renewed Covenant is because they discount the old and therefore don't understand it. You just can't grasp the New/Renewed until you understand the Old.


Absolutely. I know I didn't before I found YY. I didn't understand it. The amplified and corrected text in YY makes it much clearer.

She kept using the term myth(and said that was her churches view), but I got the impression that folk lore would be closer to what she meant and so it couldn't be trusted to be 100% true. But what I don't understand is what do they think their religion is based on if not Scripture. In her case especially I think she needs to hold that view so she can disregard the things she doesn't like.

She had no answer to Yashua's words saying He didn't come to destroy the law.
Or if he did destroy it, what did we need His grace for, for without the law how could we sin.
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline James  
#35 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2009 3:04:11 PM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:
She had no answer to Yashua's words saying He didn't come to destroy the law.
Or if he did destroy it, what did we need His grace for, for without the law how could we sin.


Once you start substituting man's idea for Yahweh's truth, it becomes neccisary to build a house of cards.

I still don't understand how a church which claim their authority from Scripture and then claim that same scripture isn't true.

I talked with my wife about it, and having grown up in the Lutheran church, she said she had never heard any pastor or anyone say that the bible was anything other than the "Inerrant word of God". So I think your neighbors church may be an aboration, or she may not understand her churches position
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#36 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2009 11:32:01 PM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:

Or if he did destroy it, what did we need His grace for, for without the law how could we sin.


Nail target acquired, confirmed a direct hit on the head.

This is exactly what I don't get about Christians. Forgetting all the arguments we could have against their religion - and think of that paradox. Why are Christians so hung up on sin? Without getting into the politics of it all, and the church being controlling etc, why do they have to confess or repent or all the other wonderful guilt inspiring words that the vicar can boom at you lol

I think its because Christians don't know what the definition of sin is. They think its hitting a cute puppy or something that makes the neighbours kid cry or anything that could make anyone feel sad, bad, hurt... which most of the time would fall under Torah I'm sure... but they don't see sin as breaking Torah.

Its probably one of my most eye opening revelations of how I used to live as a christian, and how illogical it was.

Good discussion guys... maybe we could figure out a new way to approach the subject.

Quick edit:

Oxford Dictionary wrote:
sin
noun 1 an immoral act considered to violate divine law. 2 an act regarded as a serious offence.
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Matthew  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2009 4:30:27 AM(UTC)
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In His Name wrote:

Or if he did destroy it, what did we need His grace for, for without the law how could we sin.


Brilliant, In His Name! I'll be using that angle to state my case in the future, never saw it like that, definitely a direct hit as Robski said. If He abolished the Torah, then why do we need grace now?! But I reckon people will respond saying that Yahshua gave us laws like in Matthew 5 and Paul mentions "do not covet", though we know in context he's referring to the Law teaching him what sin is and all Yahshua was doing in Matthew 5 was bringing the Torah inwards into our hearts.
Offline In His Name  
#38 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2009 10:51:34 AM(UTC)
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Thanks guys, but I don't think I can take credit for that line.

I had never put it together like that before, it just came out. I would have to give credit to Dad's Rauch haQadosh. That is why I am most hopeful that it will become a lifeline.

Go Dad!
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline William  
#39 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 12:37:02 PM(UTC)
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You people need help!! Good grief! Jesus is simply the English translation of His name...pure and simple. You cannot tell me that the millions of Spirit-filled Christians who love Him are "wrong", "unsaved", or otherwise simply for calling on the name of Jesus...if it were so, then they would be separated from Him because of the sin--and thus they would not be Spirit-filled. However, you can see and know that they are filled with the Holy Spirit--by their fruits you shall know them. And by simply calling Him "Yeshua" (which, I agree is His name in Hebrew) you automatically "know" Him better and are "closer" to Him?? Really...think about what you're saying. Every now and then I come back to this forum and cannot believe how ya'll are like little sheep agreeing with each other that "you" know better and everyone else is "wrong" and thereby not close to God. I would watch it if I were you...I don't think God would appreciate you having that attitude towards His other children.

What kind of advice are you following here? The kind that twists Scripture so badly as to say there is the "third door" where those who don't go to heaven or hell just simply vanish! That is a lie from Satan and was NEVER mentioned by Jesus, Peter, Paul, or anyone else in the Scriptures. The Scriptures clearly show that there is a heaven for believers in Christ and a hell for those who do not believe in Christ. Salvation is a a gift - it is NOT earned - thus your eternity is NOT determined by how "good" you were here on Earth--because Jesus said "no one is good". Jesus, the disciples, the prophets...none of them said that "well, if you're not TOO bad, yet you don't believe in Jesus as your saviour, then you will simply disappear...lucky you, no hell in your future!". Nope, that's not in there one bit. Yes, I have read the convoluted "reasoning' that is in the book...and you really have to stretch the Scripture and twist things to even remotely believe there is a third option. A third option is HUGE and would have been talked about PLAINLY in the Scriptures on multiple occasions and by multiple writers...just like heaven and hell are.

You can call me a "trouble maker" on the forum or whatever you like, but it's time to put your eyeballs in the Bible and not in some of the false teachings of these books! Ask the Holy Spirit earnestly to reveal the truth in the Bible...He will. Don't take another man's opinion of things without REALLY reading things for yourselves and seeking His guidance. This (the way you are going) is exactly how cults are formed.

I do respect the two authors in MANY of their writings and opinions--but they are wrong on some issues and are putting emphasis on some things that are way out of proportion. Not all...but enough that I don't follow in their footsteps before checking it out for myself first.

As far as the muslims and other religions that claim to share the same God of Abraham--they don't. It is CLEAR in their OWN religious books that their "god" is NOT the same God of the Bible--so that is a really lame argument. Yes, the Arabs can trace their lineage back to Abraham, but that's as far as it goes.

Okay, I've written enough for now.

William
Offline William  
#40 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 12:52:04 PM(UTC)
William
Joined: 8/8/2007(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Birmingham, AL

"But a God that wish us to call him Lord and bow down and worship him, is not the same character as Yahweh. A God that says that you will worship me or burn for eternity, is not the same character as Yahweh."

OH MAN!!! James, are you outta your mind???? Have you EVER read the Old Testament?? God had His people build the temples so that they would have a place to worship Him! Read Revelations where all of heaven worships Him! Read where Jesus said that if the Jews did not worship Him that the very stones of the ground would do so! Read where "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"!

Good grief man! READ your Bible and stop guessing at what YOU consider to be the "character of Yahweh"!! "The character of Yahweh" is PLAINLY described in the Bible...dust it off and give it a read...there's some pretty nifty stuff in there.

William <with blood shooting out of my eyes--as Glenn Beck would say>
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#41 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 2:07:24 PM(UTC)
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lol Hi William :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline sirgodfrey  
#42 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 6:45:52 PM(UTC)
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Dag. I left the cult of christendom only to join another cult. I'm an idiot.
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#43 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 10:58:52 PM(UTC)
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William wrote:
You people need help!! Good grief! Jesus is simply the English translation of His name...pure and simple.


Actually the English translation of the name "Yahushua" is Joshua, they seem to have gotten it right for the other Yahushua in Scripture, then just made up the name Jesus from thin air.

William wrote:
You cannot tell me that the millions of Spirit-filled Christians who love Him are "wrong", "unsaved", or otherwise simply for calling on the name of Jesus...if it were so, then they would be separated from Him because of the sin--and thus they would not be Spirit-filled. However, you can see and know that they are filled with the Holy Spirit--by their fruits you shall know them.


There is another spirit people can be filled with, and the spirit that in-dwells Christianity is inconsistent with itself and scripture.

William wrote:
And by simply calling Him "Yeshua" (which, I agree is His name in Hebrew)...


its Yahushua not Yeshua

William wrote:
you automatically "know" Him better and are "closer" to Him?? Really...think about what you're saying. Every now and then I come back to this forum and cannot believe how ya'll are like little sheep agreeing with each other that "you" know better and everyone else is "wrong" and thereby not close to God. I would watch it if I were you...I don't think God would appreciate you having that attitude towards His other children.


Actually if anything God would want us to question these things, as we are told to in scripture so we are no deceived... Plus the constant insult that is Christianity in His face, I think we are more like a breath of fresh air lol - at least we study scripture with an open mind and not bent round some ridiculous and most of the time pagan doctrine.

William wrote:
What kind of advice are you following here? The kind that twists Scripture so badly as to say there is the "third door" where those who don't go to heaven or hell just simply vanish! That is a lie from Satan and was NEVER mentioned by Jesus, Peter, Paul, or anyone else in the Scriptures. The Scriptures clearly show that there is a heaven for believers in Christ and a hell for those who do not believe in Christ. Salvation is a a gift - it is NOT earned - thus your eternity is NOT determined by how "good" you were here on Earth--because Jesus said "no one is good". Jesus, the disciples, the prophets...none of them said that "well, if you're not TOO bad, yet you don't believe in Jesus as your saviour, then you will simply disappear...lucky you, no hell in your future!". Nope, that's not in there one bit. Yes, I have read the convoluted "reasoning' that is in the book...and you really have to stretch the Scripture and twist things to even remotely believe there is a third option. A third option is HUGE and would have been talked about PLAINLY in the Scriptures on multiple occasions and by multiple writers...just like heaven and hell are.


That's if the destination mattered... your Christian understanding is disabling your logic, and your doctrines trip you up.

William wrote:
You can call me a "trouble maker" on the forum or whatever you like, but it's time to put your eyeballs in the Bible and not in some of the false teachings of these books! Ask the Holy Spirit earnestly to reveal the truth in the Bible...He will. Don't take another man's opinion of things without REALLY reading things for yourselves and seeking His guidance. This (the way you are going) is exactly how cults are formed.


hehe don't take another mans opinion... how big is the christian publishing industry? How much money is in the churches and denominations because people are told they have to give? How much do people hold up and admire the religious leaders from Benny Hinn to The Pope himself? I think Christianity's problems with following man dwarf ours...

William wrote:
I do respect the two authors in MANY of their writings and opinions--but they are wrong on some issues and are putting emphasis on some things that are way out of proportion. Not all...but enough that I don't follow in their footsteps before checking it out for myself first.


So you agree with Prophet of doom, yea its easy to point out the issues in someone else's religion isn't it lol Not so easy when the mirror is pointing at your own though eh. I've been there, it wasn't the most comfortable time lol

I think most people would have sighed when they read this, its what I did...

If you think what Yada says in YY is incorrect, please read his work and then right rebuttals to it with accurate sources and reasons why you came to the conclusions. We will read it fully, and if you are correct then awesome - lets go that way! Make me come back to Christianity, it would be a heck of a lot easier. :)
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline bitnet  
#44 Posted : Saturday, May 30, 2009 1:26:12 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shabbat Shalom,

William, according our our great leaders His Excellency Yada and His Holiness Ken, the Holy Bible says that Jesus' flock is small so obviously Christianity cannot be the right religion to follow. Neither would Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism. The smaller the better, it seems, and Judaism almost qualifies except that they do not use the honourable names and do not do what Jesus says. Nay, nay, we must listen to our honourable leaders and disregard what is written in the Holy Bible.

C'mmon, William! Have you actually studied what was written? And understood it in context? Do you really think that we are a bunch of kooks spread all over the world trying to form a cult? For what purpose? The writers don't even ask for a cent! And they spend hours dissecting Scripture using expensive tools and resources that many people don't even know exists! And guess what? Many of us here do the same! And visit other websites seeking clarification of all the doctrines observed by all of Christianity and Judaism and compare it with Scripture. And listen to other Scripture-observant teachers who do not even know Yada and KP and cross-reference their work.

For sure many of us have come out of Christianity, and for good reason... we want to follow Truth, not a bunch of man-made fairy-tales and religious superstitions. We do not claim that only people who believe Yahushua and who know Yahweh will receive salvation, but urge seekers to learn of them firsthand because if you are going to form a relationship that will last for eternity you had better get to know them well, starting with their names. If you don't know their names, they will be introduced to you sometime, and you had better be prepared to recognise the names and accept the names and not insist on looking for Jesus or Father God!

And before you form your conclusions about YY and those who seek to follow Yahweh, I urge you to put aside a lot of what you know and start learning with a renewed mind. If you can accept that the 10 Commandments are valid today, then you must ask why Christianity does not observe them all and question why it is written that followers are instructed to keep all His commandments till the very end. There is much to say, but perhaps Matt 7:21-27 should be a good start for those who claim to be His but do not do as He says. (I thought I'd better put this in or else you will say that we do not even reference The Good Book at all but believe other people's words as scripture.)
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline kp  
#45 Posted : Saturday, May 30, 2009 5:25:45 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Quote:
...our great leaders His Excellency Yada and His Holiness Ken

Bitnet, you are so droll. William, I trust you realize that this was a joke, totally tongue in cheek. The only difference between Yada and I and many of the folks who visit this site is that we have more time on our hands---we research God's Word all day long, not just after finishing a hard day's work. And characterizing this as a cult is just plain crazy: when's the last time you heard of a cult whose "leaders" refuse to take donations and beg their "followers" to cross-check everything they say with scripture, linguistic tools, and the testimony of the Holy Spirit---to think for themselves, to come to their own conclusions? Yahweh is the only leader around here.

I realize that having your preconceptions challenged can be unnerving. But please understand that it is not our intention to place ourselves on a pedestal---"I'm better than you because I know more." It's not like that at all. I see it as two teenage brothers, the older of whom has made mistakes and learned from them, while the younger hasn't quite figured it out yet. When the elder says, "Man, you've got it all wrong---that stuff you're doing will hurt you," the younger is apt to react, "You're not the boss of me---I happen to know that Mom and Dad love me just as much as they do you." To which we reply, "Yes, they do, but you haven't seen Mom crying at night; you haven't noticed the sadness in Dad's eyes. You can't see that we're only asking you to change because we love you."

I've been a "Christian" for, well, it's been almost sixty years now. (I should note that when we speak of "leaving Christianity," we---or at least I---merely mean we've left behind the religion of Christianity, not the core beliefs. I've learned to challenge Christian tradition, to examine it under the microscope of Scripture. Sometime it holds up; often it does not.) Some of the "epiphanies" I've had have taken decades to develop; others have imposed themselves seemingly overnight. My point, William, is that I used to believe all the things you believe, whether Scripture really taught them or not. And yes, I was truly "saved" all that time, but my mistakes, my ignorance, negatively impacted my walk with God, for I didn't understand Him as well as I could have. I still don't, but I'm learning.

You mentioned the "Three-doors" principle as an example of where Yada and I have gone completely around the bend. When Yada first noticed it and brought it to my attention, I was "certain" he was wrong (we aren't in lock step; we don't agree on absolutely everything). But I endeavored to be a good "Berean," and upon examining the actual Hebrew and Greek words that Yahweh chose to employ, the truth of the matter became clear. You write: "What kind of advice are you following here? The kind that twists Scripture so badly as to say there is the "third door" where those who don't go to heaven or hell just simply vanish! That is a lie from Satan..." The language of scripture (in Hebrew, though not so much in English) begs to differ with your conclusion. Isaiah, for example, writes, “You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption, for You have cast all my sins behind Your back.” (Isaiah 38:17) The Hebrew word for “corruption” (which in your mind you read as "hell") is beliy, which actually means nothingness—it is the word for negation, literally: “no, not, or without.” Isaiah is saying that by placing our sins out of His sight, Yahweh has saved our souls from becoming nothing, from dissipating into nonexistence, from simply vanishing! So for you to insist that such a doctrine is a lie from Satan is a presumptuous and dangerous statement---and to my mind, a blatant violation of the third commandment.

Feel to disagree with Yada and me all you want. We've been known to make mistakes. But please, do your homework first.

kp
Offline TRUTH B-TOLD  
#46 Posted : Saturday, May 30, 2009 5:54:54 AM(UTC)
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Shalom William,

I must say when I first read your post my first response was as Robskiwarriors, that was to Lol, that's because in some aspects I understand what you are saying, but I would like you to know that we are all not like little sheep agreeing with each other. There is a lot of discussion here on alot of issues and somethings everyone agrees on and some they don't, but it all should be done in the spirit of Yahuweh.

I for one don't quite get the "three door" option either, I believe that you either receive salvation by grace to eternal life or you pay for your own sins by the wages of death. I differ from you because I believe that eternal hell is for the unsaved to remain under the judgment of Elohim forever and that is in death. I don't believe they have a consceince and are aware of their surroundings, I mean death is death isn't it, where their is no knowledge, wisdom, or understanding. Now, I'm not sure of Satan and the falling angels, there could possibly be a different fate for them, but I don't worry myself with what will become of them.

As for the name of the Most High Elohim, I'm not sure it makes a difference what we call him, for he knows the intent of our hearts and he knows who he will give his grace to and I don't believe what name we call him will be the deal breaker. But when I learned of his name I thought it appropriate to address him by his proper name, why not? I do believe that he is called by many names in the scriptures and that each of his names are intented to teach us of certain attributes of the characteristics of him that we may come to know him better and this includes the names of Yahuweh and Yahushua. His real name might be a name that no man knows written of in the book of Revelation, not sure.

About "christianity", I call myself a christian, I have no problem with the term. I do have alot if issues with the christian churches though and their false teachings. I believe that the scriptures we are warned that the day would come that the spirit of Yah would be removed from the churches and satan and his ministers of righteousness would be giving the power to trample they under their feet. I believe that the believers are called to come out so that they will not be parters of the sins of the church and judged by her sins. Those that do not hear the call to come out are blinded by their trust in their church, church leader's, and the false doctrines that they teach, making the church their god thereby worshipping a false christ and we were warn of these things when Yahushua was with us. Judgment starts in the house of Elohim and he is dividing the wheat from the tares, look back at in the OT when judgment came upon the Holy city, the Holy Temple, Thye Holy People were always commanded to flee into the world (Babylon) and to work there ,but not worship the king there. When Satan was giving the power to overcome the churches, they became apart of the world (the Whore) is is the statues made in the image of the king (Satan) and she speaks for him. So, those that remain are worshipping bowing down to the wrong Elohim, why do you think Yahuweh took the time to tell us all those stories, to teach us of the things to come, remember what it says in Ecc. 1:9,10 " The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us."

William so continue to check back and know that not all here agree on all things, but we do try to learn from one another. There is not just one or two teachers here, but we all can look into the scriptures and give are understanding of what we see and hear from the words of Yah, so maybe instead of checking back you stay for awhils and give your understanding of what is being spoken of on this forum, you don't to believe in all things that are spoken of here, for I know I don't. So, welcome back.
Offline bitnet  
#47 Posted : Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:02:22 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shavuot Shalom,

May the Peace and Power of The Ruach haQodesh be upon all of you who seek to follow Yahweh. I was just telling Robski the other day that perhaps I should not have been so sharp with my words to William, and that I may have unintentionally sent the wrong message about Yada and Ken with those facetious titles. Of course, most of you understand that is was as KP read it -- tongue-in-cheek in response to William's assertion that we are following two cult leaders -- but perhaps I should have been a little gentler in my response. So I apologise if I have given offense.

We have been having a lot of battles with so many Christians who mean well but who do not apply themselves to really understanding what our Creator says via Scripture. The fact is, if people really bother to do some research with a prayerful, open mind and seek Him, they would have found much of what is written is contrary to what is practiced by most Christian churches. Then it comes down to deciding whether to follow what they learnt through Scripture or follow the traditions of men. Scripture warns us about the latter and those who have read the stories in Scripture have to decide for themselves what to do next. There is no way a person can read Scripture and follow their priest or pastor without experiencing a conflict! Many questions arise.

For most, the next questions are "How do I respond to the Word? Ignore it and do as the clerics say or ignore the clerics and do as Scripture says?" This is where the line is drawn. For all that was believed in ignorance up till that point, grace abounded and may continue to abound, but then comes the time when a firm decision must be made. Pesach or Easter? Sukah or Christmas? Shabbat or Sunday? The mind should start to realise that choices will have to be made. Choose wisely is all I can say at this point. And if you need more information before you decide, then ask and it shall be given to you. But turn away in haste and anger and you may do so at your own peril and at the expense of your loved ones who depend upon you for leadership in Truth.

The fact is, salvation is not like learning rocket science. It is easy to understand and that is why hundreds and thousands of mostly peasants believed within a short span of time after the gift of the Ruach haQodesh. It only requires a desire to be honest with oneself and Scripture. And this desire is so tightly bound with Love that those who hate will have to turn to love, as in the case of Shaul/Paul. So continue to seek Him in love and you shall be blessed, that you may live life in abundance. Believe Yahushua, not just what you read about Him.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline James  
#48 Posted : Monday, June 1, 2009 8:30:44 AM(UTC)
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William wrote:
OH MAN!!! James, are you outta your mind???? Have you EVER read the Old Testament?? God had His people build the temples so that they would have a place to worship Him! Read Revelations where all of heaven worships Him! Read where Jesus said that if the Jews did not worship Him that the very stones of the ground would do so! Read where "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"!

I beg you to take the time to study the scripture, setting aside all your preconceived notions, and using something other than English translation, which if you do so you will come to realize that they are nearly worthless for studying Scripture.
Second, Yahweh consistently refers to himself as our father, we are called the bride of the messiah, and the covenant is all about FAMILY. What productive and loving head or a family has members worshiping them, bowing down in submission to them? What would you think of a father that made his children bow before him, worship him? What would you think of a husband who made his wife gravel at his feet worshiping him? Yahushua washed the feet of his disciples, this doesn't sound like the character of a person who wishes his followers to worship him, to me.
In Revelation Yahushua says that we will sit beside him in his throne, is this consistent with a desire to be worshiped?
What would you think of a person who said you will love me and worship me, or you will be tormented for all eternity?
Or speaking on the 3 doors idea, what Loving God would say that a child who dies at age 3 living in Saudi Arabia, who was never given a choice on forming a relationship with Yahweh, will burn for eternity in hell?

William wrote:
Good grief man! READ your Bible and stop guessing at what YOU consider to be the "character of Yahweh"!! "The character of Yahweh" is PLAINLY described in the Bible...dust it off and give it a read...there's some pretty nifty stuff in there.

William <with blood shooting out of my eyes--as Glenn Beck would say>

So it is based on my studying of Scripture, I deplore the name bible, that has lead me to my understanding of Yahweh's character. You say that the character of Yahweh is PLAINLY described in the Bible, I disagree as the bible is horribly translated, by agenda driven men. I believe that the character of Yahweh is PLAINLY described in The Scriptures, when they are fully and accurately translated, and studied.

"If you start with an errant basis you will come to errant conclusions." -- Glenn Beck

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Matthew  
#49 Posted : Tuesday, June 2, 2009 2:13:36 PM(UTC)
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Cyn wrote:
let me speak at this point a word of moderation. i did not have the hebrew names of yahweh and yahushua in their preciousness of which i am sure. but rather discovered our loving father through those same old words which now began to live in me.
i do not call him abba when i talk to him, rather i use the word "babbi" the swiss-german word for dad, to me it has much more meaning than any other word in any given language. i honestly believe that people who truly call upon the name of our saviour, if they be calling him yahushua (a word,if i am not mistaken, we do not even know how it was pronounced) or jesus or "Herrgott" (another of our strange words) they will be saved for his reputation and mercy's sake.

This quote is from Cyn's first post on the forum, I thought it would go well on this topic.
Offline Heretic Steve  
#50 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:46:29 AM(UTC)
Heretic Steve
Joined: 9/26/2007(UTC)
Posts: 258
Location: ohio

I wonder, did the thief know Yahshua's name?


Btw, Cult? Hahahahaha...... Hey, where's the Kool-Aid? Hahahahahaha....... KP as "His Holiness", ROFLMAO!!!!!!
We gotta kiss KP's ring? Hahahahahahaha...... Hey, Your Holiness. What's the going rate for divorcing my wife so I can marry my cousin? Hahahahahahaha.....
If not us, who? If not now, when?
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